SundayDriver

I agree completely. I have a different definition of smooth that matches Mark's description of the balance beam example. Who cares how smooth you are on the pedals or with the steering wheel? It doesn't matter. What matters is what you do to the blance of the car. Manage the weight and weight transfer. Too quick a weight transfer and you get a spike and lose grip at that corner. It doesn't matter how rough the inputs appear, if the output is smooth enough to maintain grip, then you are fast.

Just look at the way Alonso 'jerks' the steering wheel. But I bet the data shows a very fast, yet smooth weight transfer that does not upset the car beyond what he wants.

Smooth is over-rated and like others have said, it is a good excuse for going slow.

SundayDriver

For me, there are a lot of adjustments, but more with the pedals (yes both gas and brake pedal as I LFB) and some steering as needed.

SundayDriver

I think that is a whole different world for a number of reasons - others have stated some of those, but setup is very different between oval and road coarse. On an oval, setup is everything. There are 4 somewhat similar corners and there are very few, if any, compromises in setup to go fast around all 4 corners.

On a road coarse, setup is not as critical as you are making all sorts of trade-offs. As a result, the car is far from perfect in most places on the course and the driver is the one who has to force the car to bahave.

M758

I agree with this as well. Looking at forklift's lap of Mid-ohio I can tell you right now he can push harder and pick up a second, maybe two. The car is always under control and smooth and the driver input are also very slow and smooth. It looks like he is not driving the car on the edge. If he were the car would still look smooth (with more sliding however) as it contacts the road, but inside you would see a struggle at each corner activly balancing the car.

When I am racing a lap like that is a 8/10's lap for me. Infact one I would feel comfortable give a student a ride around in. On a 10/10 lap I am working the wheel ALOT harder and sliding in every corner just a bit.

TD in DC

I really like the tightrope analogy. What if you combined that idea with the idea of hurdles? Specifically, it isn't that hard to run hurdles when you are on a normally sized lane. Smooth is fast, and developing a controlled rhythm is key. You look smooth when you are running the hurdles correctly. Of course, you can still fall down if you make any bonehead errors.

Now imagine making the lane narrower and narrower, which would represent getting closer to the limit. By the time you get down to running the hurdles on a tight rope, you can imagine that there would be some serious body english going on, but the body english would be absolutely necessary to run the hurdles fast on the tightope. Nonetheless, the really good runners would still be smoother than everyone else because the less motion you expend the less you interfere with the equilibrium you are trying to achieve.

Another good analogy is a waiter's race. It is easy to carry a drink on a tray if you are walking, but it gets harder and harder the faster you run . . . Oh yeah, and holding the wine bottle like the losers in the picture is like relying on PSM . . .

M758

Bottomline
Car should appear smooth and balanced on the outside, but the driver is working like mad on the inside.

Bull

Actually, I don't find a difference between "smooth" and "controlled agression".

forklift

While I agree with you 100% that there is more time to be had (it was my first time there), I would disagree for the reason….and which is the reason why I bumped this thread. Controlled Aggression or Super Smooth? You say that my inputs look smooth and I it appears I am not driving the car on the edge, but isn’t that the trick here? Nordscliffe stated earlier in this thread that he has ridden w/ Walter R “when he had been “getting it on' at the Green Hell. He is smooth as silk, this from the man who finds track racing boring compared to rallying.” …we all know how fast Walter is.

The video of Hans Stuck at the ring does not show much steering input and neither does Larry’s 2:08 video at WG, or many other videos of “quick” drivers. On the other hand this video of Cort Wagner show him constantly correcting in a Lotus: http://jackspictures.com/videos/lotu...0at%20WSIR.wmv

That particular lap of mine was a 1:45:90, which isn’t great, but not bad for RA-1s (D Stock): http://www.pca.org/clubrace/2006_res...rpB-Enduro.htm so yes a few seconds to be had, but the Toyos were working. Actually, now that I watch it again there are quite a few corrections, so maybe not that smooth? Again, all relative.

I vote for more controlled aggression, with the less “movement” the better, but when you exceed the tires limits corrections are sometimes needed. Hopefully they are mild ones (less than 10% slip). I don’t have the book with me but in one of Carroll Smith’s books he shows a traction chart that shows a fine line between talent and a superstar (as well as the idiot).

10 GT3

After going through 3 Evolution Schools, smoothness always beats aggression. That's with working with about a half dozen national autocrossing champs including Gerry Terranova, Rob Faulkner(incredibly smooth) and Andy Hollis (6-time national champ). You are pretty amazed when they push you to smoothen out all your inputs and you feel like you are going slower, but you are 1.5 seconds faster. Being smooth allows you to approach and be in control at the limit. Aggression can easily push you over it. Once you are smooth you can push the car to go faster. This is not the same as agression. Smoothness is pushing a car, aggression is forcing it.

RJay

Jeez Only took a year to get an answer from you Sunday

I guess what I've come to realize is that, and I'm not overly happy with my car's setup at the moment, in understeering situations I correct more with throttle, while in oversteering ones, I rely more on the wheel. I still don't LFB but I certainly think it would be a real advantage if I could just get the confidence to do it on the track.
I'm in complete agreement with this. Its all about weight transfer, managing it, not the controls and keeping ahead of it.

On the subject of Randy Pobst, he's certainly the poster child for us AXers. 8x National Champion IIRC. Its hardly surprising that his style reflects some of that background.

SundayDriver

LOL. I guess I never saw this thread. I had a discussion with someone via email about what smooth is, and came up with the idea pf focusing on output rather than input and this thread pops up.

If we start another interesting thread, I promise to join in by the end of 2007.

RSRRacer

I think I am in the smooth category, even in qualifying.

When I think about it further, except in conditions of rapid correction, I drive with my fingertips with a very relaxed grip. This gives me better feel of vibration / harmonical issues and also for some reason I can tell if a tire is down by a few pounds or out of alignment based upon the effort it takes to steer (fingers are more sensitive than a firm grip?)

We will try some controlled agression at WGI in a few weeks and see how I do. However at this point my telemetry is defined as one of my crew standing on the top of the trailer!

JCP911S

I think the track makes a difference... WGI is fast and I tend to concentrate more on smoothness.... LRP on the other hand seems to work better if you attack it with a sort of "toss and catch" approach

lawjdc

You will have your answer if you take the PDE course and do a few hot laps with Hurley Haywood driving.

bobt993

Larry would remember our RTR meeting last year when we had club member(now moved on to fame) David Donohue from Red Bull(I hope they win a couple races this year). Oh, ask Larry about playing paint ball with David and getting popped on the head. Specifically David was asked which style is him and what is ultimately faster. David felt his is aggressive and always tempting the edge and bringing the car back much what we call "aggressive smooth"? He did say Haywood does not agree with his style and relies on being very smooth to the limit of the car. David's argument was pushing the car past the slip angle aggressively gives you some room to correct, but following the car on the tight rope leaves no room for error and is seldom recovered. So I guess both camps are correct, but you must subscribe to one or be .......................slow.