Mike in Chi

First day, after one session.

Of course, that was a different era. All the Porsches were hand-cranked then.

(Full disclosure -- I had done the old Derek Bell/Vic Elford PORSCHE OWNERS DRIVING SCHOOL, which used to be one day in the early 90s.)

mooty

i have been signed off years ago, but like redlineman said, when doing solo you are giving up a lot of learning opportunity. i dont' care how fast you are, you can ALWAYS learn something new. i try to spend 1/2 of my DE day riding with instructructos of different driving style to pick up new skills.

for many, doing solo is like a badge of honor. it's a good feeling, but even after being signed off i think it's to our benefit to ride with better drivers or have them ride with you, which ever way you make you learn faster and more.

RJay

This is one place where I think the current system is lacking. Before soloing, I had a log book that instructors reviewed my performance and progress. After that the log book disappeared. Big systematic mistake IMHO. Not to go to far OT, but I think that once a driver is soloing getting signed off to the next higher run group should require more than just a single recommendation. Several instructor runs, preferably at multiple tracks, with logged comments would make certain that the driver is ready both technically and psycologically.

I'm sure we've all seen some pretty crappy driving in the higher run groups and I have to wonder, how some people got promoted. Perhaps, much like a racing license, DE drivers should be required to keep their level current. There should be a requirement to do some minimum number of days to retain your level and perhaps even an annual instructor check off run.

mikew968

Is getting "signed off" really the objective? For me I keep an instructor with me into the 2nd day to learn as much as I can. I have been limitedly signed off at every event I have been to but i kept an instructor into Sunday to learn from an experienced racer. After all do any of us really know all there is to know about Mid Ohio?

Mike

DrJupeman

Bob, in NNJR this is not how we work. If a student is signed off they are only signed off for that event. That student may, and very likely will, have another instructor at their next event even at the same track.

Are we confusing being signed off vs. advancing to a no-instructor-required run group?

Jimbo951

Northern New Jersey has 6 run groups. The lower groups (Green-Yellow-Blue) always require an instructor. The upper groups (White-Black-Red) don't ever require an instructor. For the lower run group, your instructor can sign you off for that event after 1 day, but for the next event you get a new instructor. So the best case scenerio is an newbie would spend atleast 6 days on-track (3 x 2 days per event) before they move up to White. In reality, most people spend 2-3 events in each group before they move up to white. I think I was in White after 20 days.

[Oops: I see Jupe and myself just cross-posted]

- RedDogger

carreracup21

I'm not sure I was ever signed off hahaha. One time I just showed up and they put me in a solo group and that was that. At my third event I spun in the first turn of the out lap of the very first session right in front of everyone hahahaha... well it was raining . My instructor told me he was so embarrassed that he made me run the whole session in third gear . The chief instructor thought I was some kind of nut and said they would be watching me closely the rest of the weekend. Seriously true story !!! Getting "signed off" is fun, but instructors can teach you a lot. I race now, and even win every now and then , but I would not hesitate to use an instructor. I like having someone in the car with me. There are some great drivers out there who pay for the privilege of getting expert instruction.

MJR911

Honestly, I am sad to admit that region politics can also play into the process. I have instructed with some clubs, been blessed by VERY respectable club racers to run inches off their bumpers in red and still am told I'm a white group driver with my own region. It all depends. If you can swallow your pride and really work on learning everything possible, you'll be a heck of a lot faster than the guy who only wants to display his wrist band at the friday night party. Of course everyone has different goals, so to each their own.

hey Bill, tell us about all of your famous instructors!

mooty

This is one place where I think the current system is lacking. Before soloing, I had a log book that instructors reviewed my performance and progress. After that the log book disappeared. Big systematic mistake IMHO. Not to go to far OT, but I think that once a driver is soloing getting signed off to the next higher run group should require more than just a single recommendation. Several instructor runs, preferably at multiple tracks, with logged comments would make certain that the driver is ready both technically and psycologically.
_______________--
absolutely agreed. but the reality is group politics and business practices (some DE are for profit here in CA) makes it very hard to do. no, i am not an instructor, so i won' t be signing off anyone.

i think part of it is really based on the individual student. i run in the fast group or the instructors of most organization i run with. but if i am driving on a track i only frequent 2-3 times a year, i drop to a slower group to learn and re-acquaint myself with the track.

with all the good intention that every instructors have, it's very hard to POLICE students. IMHO it's best to instill logic and reason to the student's head. well that can be hard in inself.

carreracup21

Oh you mean Randy Pobst. Well at one early event I was fortunate to have him take me around for a bit. That was probably a pivital event in my training in that it showed me just what could be done by a true master of the craft. Very cool. The Autometrics crew have helped me tremendously just by being there at races or test days to give me advice. Especially Cory and Adam Friedman. Cory is an amazing resource for someone looking to get expert driving help. I get better just listening to him. Phil and Coco Strayer are some of the best DE instructors in the SE. I was lucky to have both of them early. Just take it all in and don't worry about when you get "signed off". This board has helped me a lot too.

Bob Rouleau

Dr-J, I think the thread was about being signed off to solo as opposed to running with an instructor in a group other than green. In any case my comments address the transition from requiring an instructor in the car to driving solo.

With regard to "politics" and promotion to higher run groups, one should note that on track etiquette counts. Sometimes a competent driver will be held back out of concerns over aggressive behavior. In ouor region promotion to higher run groups requires not only driving skills but a good "track record". Too many spins, offs and or bkack flags will hold a person back.

Best,


Rgds,

hinchcliffe

Being signed off is kind of a badge of honor. That means your instructor thinks that you are ready enough to not need constant supervision. But I also agree that an instructor in your car is a good thing, as long as he's giving you feedback.

On the first day of my second event by the third run on track my instructor was giving me thumbs up at most every turn. "Maybe a little early apex, but the car seems to handle it, just watch it next time." On the fourth run of the day he was giving me some pointers on how to get around the corners a little faster, and changing some of the "lines" in and out to see which is the most comfortable. That's why even though I've been signed off, I would like an instructor, maybe a few different instructors would be better because each has their own ideas of going fast and turn in points which will help me to find the most comfortable/usable line formy "fat" car (928's get that rap I guess....).

I tell you what, the first time out solo you can really feel the difference not having that 200lb instructor sitting next to you.

RedlineMan

Hey all;

One factor that has effected the balance of run groups lately is the popularity of DE. The decent economy has brought many more new people out to the track. This has put upward strain on ALL run groups. The pressure from below to move people up simply to make room for the noobs has brought a lot of new people into higher groups. Problems associated with this have been quite apparent.

There are a lot of "rookies" moving into the upper groups, and the overall flow of the driving has suffered noticeably. Using the Big Kahuna Zone 1 48 Hours as an example, there never used to be anything approaching trains or traffic problems in the Red/Black groups there. Almost all the drivers had been running together for some years, and the flow of traffic - quite regardless of car potential - was nothing short of smooth.

Now, with new drivers coming in, the flow has been disrupted. Trains are now fairly common, much to my dismay, and I'm sure others as well. They may have been top dogs in their old group, but they are now the boot lickers all over again. I must imagine they have grown used to not being passed very much, for they do not signal QUICKLY, often enough, do not back off and let chunks of cars go by, etc. I am traditionally just about the slowest CAR in the group, and even I - with my raging 147HP - get hung up behind these folks. That is simply untenable!

I don't suppose it would necessarily be fair to expect the rookies to be right up to speed with everything that goes on, but then again if they are there they should be capable of handling the pace of the group, and at the LEAST they should have passing etiquette in spades. Is that not one of the things they were supposed to be learning in the lower groups? And too, if the Red drivers were to move on to Club Racing, it is for sure that they would be the pylons of the group and have to start "all over again" getting smoked by most everybody.

To my mind, I think that ALL groups need an instructor now and then. These new folks need a check out ride. Someone sitting over there will quite quickly suggest to them that they better kick up their concentration and courtesy a couple notches. The Zone 1 and NNJR groups I frequent have been fairly proactive about sticking instructors in White group cars recently. The drivers of the "great unwashed group" have needed it most.

So, should I put up and volunteer to run the Rookie Advanced Driver Class? I can tell you I have been sorely tempted to suggest it!

I guess all of this is reinforcing the point that the learning SHOULD never stop. It's been too many years for me, for sure, and so I myself am sending myself back to school this summer! What's YOUR excuse?

tntporsche

Jimbo - Please don't state information such as this as fact when you really have no knowledge other than personal of how the progression works.- My email will be full from students wanting to know why they haven't moved up. There is no magic formula . . . progressing to the next run group is very individual and we rely on feedback from instructors and other data recorded at the track.

I totally agree with Bob: "With regard to "politics" and promotion to higher run groups, one should note that on track etiquette counts. Sometimes a competent driver will be held back out of concerns over aggressive behavior. In ouor region promotion to higher run groups requires not only driving skills but a good "track record". Too many spins, offs and or bkack flags will hold a person back." Amen to that.

NNJR always encourages drivers who have been signed off to solo, to take an instructor with them at least once during every event they attend. We have also been trying to put instructors in all cars in at least one black or white run at every event. We are ALL still learning.

Brian P

I once got an email from a DE chair saying something to the effect of "Welcome to the white run group. Being in the white run group doesn't mean that you no longer require an instructor, it means you get to choose your instructor." The email went on to say that if you look at all the top sports professions, the people who are the best in the world still have coaches and instructors, and no matter how good we think we are, we can still learn something new.