Where is the Limit - Part II - Driver
02-02-2005, 01:53 AM
#16
Race Director
Originally Posted by SundayDriver
Do you scare yourself when driving on the track?
If so, how often?
If so, how often?
Of course, there's that wiggle about 2' from the wall at around 120 mph at the second kink along the front straight of TMS while setting up for the chicane the SCCA uses (in a borrowed race car). THAT doubled my heart rate. I swear the seat still has a scrunch in the bottom.
02-02-2005, 03:27 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
I was thinking about a similar topic while commuting the other day -
Could there ever be a common language to describe the infamous "tenths"
It's probably a topic that we've already wasted too much time on, but what about this perspective -
10/10ths is scaring yourself every lap (or maybe on every corner)
9/10's is scaring yourself once per session (or once per lap?)
8/10ths is driving pretty fast, but never scaring yourself, knowing you've got something left on the table - maybe what Redline describes
7/10ths is driving sorta fast, knowing there's alot left
6/10ths and below is driving pretty slow.
DE instructors in a students car normally drive at 7/10ths
Ghetto may drive at 9/10ths, but so far has been lucky not to crash any student's car.
One guy's 9/10ths in an RSA might be a 2:45 time because of his lack of experience (5-10 DE days) and someone else's 9/10ths in a similar car might be 2:12, based on years of experience.
Just a random thought that might fit into this idea of how often we scare ourselves...
Could there ever be a common language to describe the infamous "tenths"
It's probably a topic that we've already wasted too much time on, but what about this perspective -
10/10ths is scaring yourself every lap (or maybe on every corner)
9/10's is scaring yourself once per session (or once per lap?)
8/10ths is driving pretty fast, but never scaring yourself, knowing you've got something left on the table - maybe what Redline describes
7/10ths is driving sorta fast, knowing there's alot left
6/10ths and below is driving pretty slow.
DE instructors in a students car normally drive at 7/10ths
Ghetto may drive at 9/10ths, but so far has been lucky not to crash any student's car.
One guy's 9/10ths in an RSA might be a 2:45 time because of his lack of experience (5-10 DE days) and someone else's 9/10ths in a similar car might be 2:12, based on years of experience.
Just a random thought that might fit into this idea of how often we scare ourselves...
02-02-2005, 08:40 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Hmmm...
You're a devil, Sunday; Surreptitiously exposing people's self-assumed levels of competance as less than they had thought or wanted to believe.
I must admit that I do not often scare myself. This is quite on purpose. I am quite aware of it. Being scared is not generally my idea of fun. I am fooling no one.
However, I have the enviable insight to know that there is more speed left in my old bucket. I don't need new tires, springs, sways, DAS.
Tis I that be the limiting factor.
You're a devil, Sunday; Surreptitiously exposing people's self-assumed levels of competance as less than they had thought or wanted to believe.
I must admit that I do not often scare myself. This is quite on purpose. I am quite aware of it. Being scared is not generally my idea of fun. I am fooling no one.
However, I have the enviable insight to know that there is more speed left in my old bucket. I don't need new tires, springs, sways, DAS.
Tis I that be the limiting factor.
I suppose its possible that Hans Stuck had several serious moments that fightened him out of his wits in the recent vid posted here, but all I saw was someone extremely skilled calmly going very, very fast. I figure if I just keep upping my capabilites at 8 or 9/10, making that level faster and faster, I won't have to go 10/10s until there's very little juice left to be squeezed out. In the mean time theres plenty of opportunity to improve elsewhere. I'm very happy to dance on the early yellow part of the limit curve, I'll leave the purple part to those braver than I.
02-02-2005, 09:28 AM
#20
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When I am on a "hot lap" I still try to keep it at 9/10ths so to leave some room for error. However, when close battling occurs, I sometimes push the envelope and then scare myself. It's hard keeping the throttle down when the wall is close and the track out burm only has about 2" left!
02-02-2005, 12:57 PM
#21
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by SundayDriver
Do you scare yourself when driving on the track?
If so, how often?
If so, how often?
I won't say whether this is good or bad, but I don't have a 'scare' reflex when things go all pear-shaped in a race car. If I'm in the middle of a 100mph '720' spin, my most common reaction is 'FARK', coupled with some anger that I've just screwed up. My in-car tapes have shown me that I don't stop 'driving the car' when things get bad. Had a memorable 3rd lap race-speed 360 spin starting at the apex of T1 at Mid-O which put me waaaay out into the grass (missed the gravel...whew...), and as soon as I was pointed the right way, I was mashing on the gas and spinning the tires to get back into the fray. Camcorder sorta picked up a loud "FARK", which was due to being angry that I had just given away two race positions, rather than being scared from a 'pant-filling experience'. I did get them both back, and then some, by the checker.
But then...I have lots of experience with getting race cars out of shape. I'm probably numb to it all now.
02-02-2005, 01:11 PM
#22
Race Director
For me I only get trully scared when an incident may happen.
I think there are 4-5 times in my driving career.
Let me related
1) Driving my Turbo S on a autocross/road couse. I got behind in a slalom and went off in the bushed off track. Hit a fence. Lucky the fenced was elastic and no damage to car.
2) Firebird Main - "Concrete Canyon" car got loose flat out in 3rd gear saved it before I would have smacked the concrete wall right at the edge of the track.
3) Firebird Main - "Tower Turn" Turn in tight 2nd gear 180. I came in to pass slower car and glazed pads cause the car to not stop. Had a good look at the other car driver's door before I dumped the clutch broke the back end loose. Magically the car pointed around the corner and I applied power and was gone without incident.
4) Willow Springs Turn 9. Dust was kicked up on the exit I came through narrowlly missed car that was hidden. Only scared after it happended not before.
5) Willow Springs Turn 9. Simple oversteer and correction sent me off track at turn in. Not scared when I went off. Got a little conerned when the car did not want to slow down at all on the dirt. Got scared when I saw the berm coming -up fast. Lucky it was minor damage I make the race later that day.
6) Arizona Motorsports Park - Turn 11. Car spun in front me during the race and luckly avoid contact with his passenger's door.
7) PIR Turn 2 in close race with competitor/friend I was attempting an inside pass. He pinched me and I got harder on the brakes (was already trail braking at the time) and the car started to break loose and pointed at the inside concrete wall. For a split second I had visions of a crunched up hood. A few corrections later and the result was nothing special, just normal spin in the grass to the outside. I lived to race another lap.
I have had many other spins off's cars spinning in front of me. Those I was never scared about. Just these few incidents that actually scared me.
Those are the only times I have been "scared" I have been spooked many times. A good qualfying lap contains 1 or more spooks. How many depends on the track configuration. A good race lap has no spooks, but may have a few interesting moments per lap.
To me driving at 10/10 is all about how many times you can get spooked and get away with it. Driving 9/10 means you are very hard pushing, but nothing ever really gets out of hand. A little slip and slide is fine so long as long it has simlpe correction. 8/10 is fast with little to no sliding. 7/10 is fast, but in complete control with plenty left over.
If I get scared I will probably remember the issue clearly. If I just got spooked by the next day, session or even lap I may forget all about it.
I don't mind being spooked every now and then, but I don't like feeling scared.
I think there are 4-5 times in my driving career.
Let me related
1) Driving my Turbo S on a autocross/road couse. I got behind in a slalom and went off in the bushed off track. Hit a fence. Lucky the fenced was elastic and no damage to car.
2) Firebird Main - "Concrete Canyon" car got loose flat out in 3rd gear saved it before I would have smacked the concrete wall right at the edge of the track.
3) Firebird Main - "Tower Turn" Turn in tight 2nd gear 180. I came in to pass slower car and glazed pads cause the car to not stop. Had a good look at the other car driver's door before I dumped the clutch broke the back end loose. Magically the car pointed around the corner and I applied power and was gone without incident.
4) Willow Springs Turn 9. Dust was kicked up on the exit I came through narrowlly missed car that was hidden. Only scared after it happended not before.
5) Willow Springs Turn 9. Simple oversteer and correction sent me off track at turn in. Not scared when I went off. Got a little conerned when the car did not want to slow down at all on the dirt. Got scared when I saw the berm coming -up fast. Lucky it was minor damage I make the race later that day.
6) Arizona Motorsports Park - Turn 11. Car spun in front me during the race and luckly avoid contact with his passenger's door.
7) PIR Turn 2 in close race with competitor/friend I was attempting an inside pass. He pinched me and I got harder on the brakes (was already trail braking at the time) and the car started to break loose and pointed at the inside concrete wall. For a split second I had visions of a crunched up hood. A few corrections later and the result was nothing special, just normal spin in the grass to the outside. I lived to race another lap.
I have had many other spins off's cars spinning in front of me. Those I was never scared about. Just these few incidents that actually scared me.
Those are the only times I have been "scared" I have been spooked many times. A good qualfying lap contains 1 or more spooks. How many depends on the track configuration. A good race lap has no spooks, but may have a few interesting moments per lap.
To me driving at 10/10 is all about how many times you can get spooked and get away with it. Driving 9/10 means you are very hard pushing, but nothing ever really gets out of hand. A little slip and slide is fine so long as long it has simlpe correction. 8/10 is fast with little to no sliding. 7/10 is fast, but in complete control with plenty left over.
If I get scared I will probably remember the issue clearly. If I just got spooked by the next day, session or even lap I may forget all about it.
I don't mind being spooked every now and then, but I don't like feeling scared.
02-02-2005, 01:15 PM
#23
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Colin:
Can I ask you to post a longer clip of your shunt? I would like to study what happened. The clip only really shows the result, not what caused it and what might have been done. My goal isn't grave dancing, it's learning so I can hopefully avoid something similar.
Can I ask you to post a longer clip of your shunt? I would like to study what happened. The clip only really shows the result, not what caused it and what might have been done. My goal isn't grave dancing, it's learning so I can hopefully avoid something similar.
02-02-2005, 01:17 PM
#24
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Thread Starter
If I am running a really fast lap, then I scare myself on pretty much every corner of real consequence. For me, that means a part of my brain REALLY wonders if I am going to make it through the corner. In some cases, there may be 2 'scares' in a single corner - first wondering if I am going to make the entry, then wondering if I am going to make the exit.
If I am doing laps without that level of being scared, then I am simply not going fast enough. I rarely have that feeling at a DE and almost never in anyone else's car (only happens with a judegement error in that case). But I often experience that in qualifying and races. I think it is the same as what the Professor describes as pucker.
If I am doing laps without that level of being scared, then I am simply not going fast enough. I rarely have that feeling at a DE and almost never in anyone else's car (only happens with a judegement error in that case). But I often experience that in qualifying and races. I think it is the same as what the Professor describes as pucker.
02-02-2005, 01:25 PM
#25
Race Director
Mark,
I agree. However for me iam rarely scared to go off track. What scares me his possibly hitting something on or off track. Most tracks I run at have enough run off so that going off only rarely means contact. Getting spooked to me is simply wondering if I will make it around the corner smoothly and without issues.
I agree. However for me iam rarely scared to go off track. What scares me his possibly hitting something on or off track. Most tracks I run at have enough run off so that going off only rarely means contact. Getting spooked to me is simply wondering if I will make it around the corner smoothly and without issues.
02-02-2005, 02:04 PM
#26
Race Director
Interesting question, Sunday. Here's my $0.42,
I'm learning to keep my adrenaline at check on the track. If I get too excited about something (scared, happy, red-mist...etc) that negatively effects my driving. Adrenaline has the tendency to make us 'jumpy' and not as smooth as we should be on the track. Keeping the adrenaline out of your system helps keep you focused and smooth. So I focus on concentrating on the matter at hand - ie: driving my car. (Check out Inner Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley for details and how-to's about keeping your emotions in check on the track) I have learned to control my emotions a little so far, and to that end, no, I don't scare myself while on the track. (Then again, people also say I'm driving too slow to scare myself!!
)
That said, I am developing a sensitivity to corner entry speed: I can realize if I'm carrying in more speed or less speed than my typical entry speed on a given turn. How? I'm getting in tune with my inner ear and my butt!
Seriously: it is your inner ear that is used to measure balance, as well as a feel for speed. If I'm going in faster than normal, I'll feel it in my inner ear! Now regarding my butt: if a car is sliding and I feel that sliding sensation in my butt, then I know I'm oversteering. However, if the car is sliding and I don't feel that same sensation in my butt, then I'm most likely understeering.
So, if I put the two together, I get this: If my inner ear tells me I'm going into a turn faster than what I'm used to, AND my butt tells me I'm slidiing, then I know something's up! At that point, I tighten my sphincter (sp?) muscle (automatic reaction), and go into the turn with hightened awareness of what's going to happen. But I fight the urge to white-knuckle it, or to over-react to what's going on around me.
It's not a fear per say, but rather like the sensation you get when you jump off a high-dive into a pool, or ski/board down that steep double diamound, or take that first hill on the rollercoaster, or go over a hump on the road and get that 'zero gravity' feel in your stomach.
Does that make sense?
-Z-man.
I'm learning to keep my adrenaline at check on the track. If I get too excited about something (scared, happy, red-mist...etc) that negatively effects my driving. Adrenaline has the tendency to make us 'jumpy' and not as smooth as we should be on the track. Keeping the adrenaline out of your system helps keep you focused and smooth. So I focus on concentrating on the matter at hand - ie: driving my car. (Check out Inner Speed Secrets by Ross Bentley for details and how-to's about keeping your emotions in check on the track) I have learned to control my emotions a little so far, and to that end, no, I don't scare myself while on the track. (Then again, people also say I'm driving too slow to scare myself!!
) That said, I am developing a sensitivity to corner entry speed: I can realize if I'm carrying in more speed or less speed than my typical entry speed on a given turn. How? I'm getting in tune with my inner ear and my butt!
Seriously: it is your inner ear that is used to measure balance, as well as a feel for speed. If I'm going in faster than normal, I'll feel it in my inner ear! Now regarding my butt: if a car is sliding and I feel that sliding sensation in my butt, then I know I'm oversteering. However, if the car is sliding and I don't feel that same sensation in my butt, then I'm most likely understeering.
So, if I put the two together, I get this: If my inner ear tells me I'm going into a turn faster than what I'm used to, AND my butt tells me I'm slidiing, then I know something's up! At that point, I tighten my sphincter (sp?) muscle (automatic reaction), and go into the turn with hightened awareness of what's going to happen. But I fight the urge to white-knuckle it, or to over-react to what's going on around me.
It's not a fear per say, but rather like the sensation you get when you jump off a high-dive into a pool, or ski/board down that steep double diamound, or take that first hill on the rollercoaster, or go over a hump on the road and get that 'zero gravity' feel in your stomach.
Does that make sense?
-Z-man.
02-02-2005, 07:26 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
Originally Posted by SundayDriver
If I am running a really fast lap, then I scare myself on pretty much every corner of real consequence.
Re: twice a corner - The only places I have 'twice a corner' puckers are Mosport T2 and Watkins Glen Outer Loop (T5) when running the 'Short Course'. Of course, the Stohr has a little more stink than I'm used to...
Mosport T2 - before jumping off the cliff, I'm usually thinking "is my speed and angle of approach/car placement OK" (and if it's not...ouch), and then in the Weightless Zone, where you dare not steer, I usually think "I really hope I nailed the entry, cuz if I didn't this is going to get really ugly".
WGI Outer Loop - The Short Course is under-appreciated. It's just monsterously fast - in the SRF is just 4th and 5th gear around the whole thing. If I'm really pushing, I 'lose' the back end of the car twice in the Outer Loop - once just before the camber change, and once just after. Foot planted, at the redline in 4th gear, terrified to touch the clutch and grab for 5th 'cuz the chassis is loaded up so hard. Breathe a big sigh of relief to unwind the car and catch 5th. When I say 'lose the back end', it's just a slide/hop, but it really gets my attention. It's quite a rush, actually.
02-03-2005, 02:35 AM
#30
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As usual, the professor came up with a great example. The weightless zone in the middle of T2 at Mosport - it's the one place where you can pucker, but you better not be scared. All you have to do is nothing, and do it very smoothly, and when the car hits the bottom of the hill and hooks up for the 2nd apex it's a trip to heaven, metaphorically speaking. Tense up due to fear, and it might not be metaphorical.
I remember scaring myself a lot in the early days, when all I had was a small brain and fast reflexes. As the seat time increased and I started to develop some feel for what the car was doing under me, fear was replaced by curiosity. As in, gee this feels strange, I wonder how it will work out
I don't find I scare myself often anymore, although I have been accused of leaving the last few tenths behind every now and again. Healthy respect for the consequences I guess.
I remember scaring myself a lot in the early days, when all I had was a small brain and fast reflexes. As the seat time increased and I started to develop some feel for what the car was doing under me, fear was replaced by curiosity. As in, gee this feels strange, I wonder how it will work out
I don't find I scare myself often anymore, although I have been accused of leaving the last few tenths behind every now and again. Healthy respect for the consequences I guess.