Ok, here's the situation. Last Sept I crashed my 914 race car...rolled it at Lime Rock. I decide to part out the car, since it's going to be too expensive to fix. The engine was a 280hp 3.2 with lots of goodies (High compression JE pistons, ARP hardware, mass airflow, dual plugged, extrude honed manifold, etc.). It was about a $15k motor when built.

So, I advertise the engine in a couple of places, and I'm totally up front that I crashed (and rolled) the car. I also publish the recent leakdown results which ranged from 2% to I think 10% in 1 cyl. A guy buys the engine in early Nov for $7k. He does no tests and there is no sales contract. He pays cash.

So I get a call about a day ago that he has a problem (3 months after I deliver the engine). He says that the left side of the engine has rod knock...sounds fine at idle, but make the noise as the RPMs rise. Asks if I ever ran the engine after the crash (which I didn't).

So, net-net, he's had the engine for 3 months, and now wants his money back. I talked to two shops, and they both feel that it was unlikely that my rollover caused the issue, since when I impacted, my battery broke off and the engine stopped running before I even full rolled over...of course, anything is possible, so it's hard to really know. The other issue is that no one seems to know the shop that he is using...so it could be some dude in his garage who doesn't really know much. My concern is that he did something to it, and now it trying to dump it back to me.

So what would you do?

 

I'd be a nice guy and give him some cash. Maybe $1000 to 1500? Sure it may be his fault, but that is really all you should be expected to do. He bought the engine. He still has the engine and all the parts. If it needs a little work then it will not mean the entire engine is toasted. It won't cost 15k to rebuild since it already has lots of good parts in it.

You could say tough luck bucko.... but some how it just feels a little off to do it like that. I certainly would not take the engine back or give him the bulk of his money. You can probably go to the shop that built the motor and get rough estimate for the repair cost and off him all (if you are generous) or a portion of that cost. If you trusted the shop he is using then I'd say you could offer to split the repair cost. Since you don't even know the shop i'd stay away from that.

As a similar experience. I know of guy that bought a used race motor. After a DE day or two something in the top end broke and the motor needed repairs. If I remember right the seller had wrecked the car and parted the motor. I do know for sure that the seller helped out the buyer with repair costs. The buyer still has and has been running that motor now fixed. When I heard about it seemed like a very fair honset thing to do. The buyer was NOT scamming the seller and did not want his money back, but a little good will from the seller went along way.

BTW... both of these guys are rennlisters and one posts here every once in a while.

 

Colin:
You sold a used motor to a person. You also explained that the motor was involved in a wreck. You were up-front about the situation. You even provided him with a leak down test indicating that the engine isn't 100%. You have done your job. Knowing you personally I also know that you have honesty and integrity and wouldn't try to pull a fast one over anyone. (Except maybe Jupeman! On the track!! )

If the buyer was worried about the motor and it's condition, he should have tested it immediately after he bought it from you, not three months later. Had he done that and come back to you, it may have been a different story.

I think the buyer is second guessing whatever the project he bought the motor for, and wants to get a refund for making a 'wrong decision.'

Plus - diagnosing a tapping sound as 'rod knock' is a little bit of a stretch, no? Could be just a valve adjustment, or any one of 1,000,000 other things that could be causing the noise.

That said, whenever I sell anything, I always draft a brief 'contract' stating that what I sold was sold in 'as is' condition and I sign it as well as the buyer.

I don't think you're entitled to give him anything at this point, especially since he waited so long.
-Z-man.

 

Tough Deal;

It would be very hard for me to believe that a rod bearing or wrist pin would be damaged by an accident. Roll overs can do damage IF an engine stays running, but these are dry sump and yours didn't stay running anyway. These items generally fail from age or wear, or by "acts of God."

I would be quite polite of course, but I would not give him anything without independant varification of a problem by a known, reputable repair shop. Teardown, Plasti-Gauge, broken part in hand, etc. If it were determined to be a part failure, so sad too bad. That's racin. If it was determined to be wear, like rod bearings worn past tolerance, THEN I would be inclined to work with him a little.

As he bears the burden of proof, if he expects some help from you, this is the due diligence he can provide you to prove he has a case. Someone's word doesn't mean jack to me unless a lot of people can vouch for it.

Having been burned by someone on Rennlist for parts, I TRUST VERY LITTLE unless I know someone. Even then, I don't trust that anyone knows much unless they've PROVEN it to ME.

 

I agree with RedlineMan. To be persuaded to "help' with any repair, I would need a lot more info about this diagnosis and would need to be involved in the repair process.

 

Bull - is that you?!? Welcome to Rennlist!

 

That's racing, tough luck!
He thought he was saving by buying a used racing engine, you get what you pay for. He bought a used motor, three months later it broke. What did he really expect?
He might have a case if you advertised it as a new or freshly redone motor, but you didn't. Prob should have had a bill of sale, 'as is'.
Good luck
Chris

 

I vote "no bux". There's no evidence at all that therre was any relevant pre-existing condition,
and the guy bought a used race-motor from a crash, all disclosed, for cash months ago. The
biggest mistake would be to voluntarily imagine you had anything to do with it. Why not
refer him to the engine builder so they can argue about whether he ever over-revv'ed it
during his 3-month ownership?

 

Giving him any money would be an incredibly generous gesture, but, from what you're saying, you never expressed or implied that there was a warranty or guarantee on the motor. As the other have said, it's a used motor, not a brand new one. I think the buyer is expecting way too much.

 

Yes Z-Man, Bull here.

Thanks...I have always been here. But you know me.....nothing to say.

 

Having bought used stuff that I needed to immediately have repaired, I can sympathize with the other guy. However, that being said, it never crossed my mind to ask the original seller to chip in some bucks. I thought that was one of the understandings about buying used.

I'm not even sure I'd offer some money if I knew and trusted the guy. After all, trust works both ways - he should trust you that you properly advertised it (which you did).

 

No one offers warranties on race motors, and on top of that the guy went and ran the car after for who knows how long after he bought the motor. Probably a better chance he did something to cause the tapping than you did.

He's gonna learn a lesson here, but you shouldn't feel so bad for his ignorance. He's lucky he even bought the motor for you, as if it were most shops they'd say "hit the road."

 

On anything that I have purchased or work that I have had done the warranty was in force up to the point in time and place that I exited the hot pits, if it had a warranty at all. That said anything you do to help the guy out is above and beyond what anyone would expect. Sounds as if the facts of the case were well made, the buyer was informed. I hope this works out to everyones satisfaction.

Jeff

 

Guys,
I am in the minority on this, but while 3 months seems like a long time are we even sure he ran it for at all before this? I would not think it strange to wait 3 months before installing the engine. There are a whole host of reasons that should be obvious. Now it is possible this guy just ran the engine the 25 hrs of Thunderhill and is now complaining, but heck it is a matter of trust.

If I bought the engine and then installed it 3 months later and found it had an apparent problem I sure would call the seller. I am not the type to ask for a refund, but I would ask how much the seller knows. This is for two reasons. 1) So I can better figure what might be wrong with. 2) Maybe the seller will be good guy and help me out a little. While I'd expect number 1 as a common curtesy I would not expect number 2 but you will never know unless you ask.

Hey... alot of this is based on trust and taking with someone over the phone is way to determine some level of credibility.

 

Interesting dilemna.

I like John's answer, but would take it one to two steps further.

First of all, I would go personally to the shop the engine was at, even if I had to fly. Flights can be had pretty reasonably to most places and if there is any, and I do mean any chance of me doing something to help the situation, considering the possible money involved, I'd want to look things over personally and perhaps get to know the shop guy a bit. I wouldn't consider giving money back or undoing the deal without a face to face. In the end, the cost is minor to do this unless your time/money ratio makes the money insignificant (and for some it would be).

Secondly, I'd absolutely positively require a leak down test be performed in my presence. If it's done properly and the numbers aren't significantly close to the previous numbers, all bets are off on the spot and I'd be on the next flight home.

If a leak-down came out substantially the same, and I had a decent feeling about the shop owner or tech, I'd have some conversations about the things John discussed.

All of this assumes you're willing to even consider helping out in some way. Like others, I generally would not expect compensation given this situation, even if the engine were sitting in storage for 3 months. I'd consider it the chance I took after that long. If this happened two weeks after I took delivery and I had not previously run it, sure, I'd want to undo the deal.

All of that said, I potentially could face a similar situation and that has been on my mind. I have a massaged factory turbo road car engine that I will be selling, but it has been in storage for nearly two years. I've wondered myself what I would do if someone had a problem. I might be inclined to help them out if the problem surfaced within the first couple of weeks. After that (or if they started running it within days) I'd have to consider the situation carefully. For me, my honor would generally dicate standing behind what I sell, but only up to a point where I am reasonably sure a problem could not have been caused by the buyer.