What tires should I use at the track?
12-29-2004, 05:07 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Thanks Mark;
A sermon I have preached as long as I've been doing this. I have always driven faster in the snow than in the summer, in my formative years in rear wheel drive cars with LSDs, so I am used to a car being sideways. That's how you steer, after all! I drove the track for many years on bargain basement tires because it was all I could afford. I learned The Glen on Rikens, and the already grip-less Lime Rock on General XP2000s!
In my early track years, I did not have a problem on those marginal street tires, other than it was painfully easy to over drive them. The move to Rs was not exactly easy in terms of using all their potential, but due to my previous programming I was certainly not afraid of the edge.
What we do at the edge of adhesion, right or wrong, is purely instinctual, born of experience. If you have slide management instincts well programmed, they will follow you through your tire ascension. If you do not program them early, it is much more difficult to do so later. The higher speeds attainable by starting at "The End" instead of the beginning will likely scare most away from the edge, not invite them over for a look see.
The easiest way is to forestall as much anxiety as possible by doing it at a slow pace. In terms of car control, that would be learning at a wet skid pad or with a skid car. Next best thing is the least grippy tires you can get. Those would be street tires.
As I've mentioned in countless other threads, I honed valuable skills this year driving on old crappy R tires. It is a fine feeling indeed to know that you exceeded your previous best by a wide margin with far less grip at your disposal. The added confidence is quite satisfying!
Car control, indeed!
A sermon I have preached as long as I've been doing this. I have always driven faster in the snow than in the summer, in my formative years in rear wheel drive cars with LSDs, so I am used to a car being sideways. That's how you steer, after all! I drove the track for many years on bargain basement tires because it was all I could afford. I learned The Glen on Rikens, and the already grip-less Lime Rock on General XP2000s!
In my early track years, I did not have a problem on those marginal street tires, other than it was painfully easy to over drive them. The move to Rs was not exactly easy in terms of using all their potential, but due to my previous programming I was certainly not afraid of the edge.
What we do at the edge of adhesion, right or wrong, is purely instinctual, born of experience. If you have slide management instincts well programmed, they will follow you through your tire ascension. If you do not program them early, it is much more difficult to do so later. The higher speeds attainable by starting at "The End" instead of the beginning will likely scare most away from the edge, not invite them over for a look see.
The easiest way is to forestall as much anxiety as possible by doing it at a slow pace. In terms of car control, that would be learning at a wet skid pad or with a skid car. Next best thing is the least grippy tires you can get. Those would be street tires.
As I've mentioned in countless other threads, I honed valuable skills this year driving on old crappy R tires. It is a fine feeling indeed to know that you exceeded your previous best by a wide margin with far less grip at your disposal. The added confidence is quite satisfying!
Car control, indeed!
Well written...learn your car first with less stickly tires and then move up accrodingly as your skill and confidence build.
12-31-2004, 12:35 AM
#17
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I'm going to try Toyo RA1s next DE/TT season. I've been running stock size Kumho MX streets. I'm only getting a few weekends out of the Kumho MX. Part of the reason for switching to Toyos is the hope that they will last longer on track (speed is also a major factor since I've started time trials). Can I expect longer life out of RA1s on track? I'm hoping to get 6 to 7 events (1 years worth) in which case they would be more cost effective than street tires.
Thanks,
Mark
Thanks,
Mark
12-31-2004, 12:51 AM
#19
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Originally Posted by a4944
Can I expect longer life out of RA1s on track? I'm hoping to get 6 to 7 events
I have run Toyos on my old Carrera and I would get about 3 events, and my son gets about 3 on his Evo. If you're driving hard enough, I would not expect any more than that.
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Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
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01-01-2005, 12:32 PM
#20
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In the past, I have run a fair amount of track time on the old Yoko A008 RTU tires. They are NLA. They were very consistent, regardless of heat cycles, had a relatively long life and gave the driver a very consistent feel.
Z Man wrote: Currently, I am on R-compounds - Toyo Proxes RA-1's. I like them alot - good compromise between more grip than street shoes, and more durability than some other R's and slicks. Plus I can run in the rain with them.
I believe that the The Toyo RA-1's appear to be similar in life and performance to the older A008. If anybody has run both the 008 RTU and the Toyo RA-1, I would like to hear about a comparison.
Here is an interesting observation. On my 65 Mustang, I ran a set of Hoosier Bias ply construction tires for the first time in late 04. They have good grip, but more importantly, they have a very broad "plateau of handling" - they will run at bigger slip angles as compared to radials- even the very forgiving A008 RTU's . As a result, you can get the car into a dynamic, sliding condition very easily. (And it's a real hoot to drive with them..) As a result of their ability to run at larger slip angles it is much easier for me to develop and tune the chassis handling "feel" as compared to doing the same thing on R compound radial construction tires.
The downside of any more "Racy" tire is that they have a short life, either from tread wear or heat cycle falloff issues. The "Cost per track day" goes up a lot .
Z Man wrote: Currently, I am on R-compounds - Toyo Proxes RA-1's. I like them alot - good compromise between more grip than street shoes, and more durability than some other R's and slicks. Plus I can run in the rain with them.
I believe that the The Toyo RA-1's appear to be similar in life and performance to the older A008. If anybody has run both the 008 RTU and the Toyo RA-1, I would like to hear about a comparison.
Here is an interesting observation. On my 65 Mustang, I ran a set of Hoosier Bias ply construction tires for the first time in late 04. They have good grip, but more importantly, they have a very broad "plateau of handling" - they will run at bigger slip angles as compared to radials- even the very forgiving A008 RTU's . As a result, you can get the car into a dynamic, sliding condition very easily. (And it's a real hoot to drive with them..) As a result of their ability to run at larger slip angles it is much easier for me to develop and tune the chassis handling "feel" as compared to doing the same thing on R compound radial construction tires.
The downside of any more "Racy" tire is that they have a short life, either from tread wear or heat cycle falloff issues. The "Cost per track day" goes up a lot .
01-01-2005, 01:28 PM
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I had the pleasure of running my SO3's yesterday at Laguna Seca after 3 previous day using R-compound tires. I must admit that I had quite a bit of fun taking my car to the tires limits at lower speeds. This allowed me to experiment more aggressively with trail braking and throttle modulation. I think I'll keep doing this for simple DE/open track stuff. My R-compounds will likely reserved for time trials.
01-01-2005, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Larry Herman
6 to 7 events?? I'm lucky to get 10 to 12 run sessions on my R tires! :I have run Toyos on my old Carrera and I would get about 3 events, and my son gets about 3 on his Evo. If you're driving hard enough, I would not expect any more than that.
I hate to brag about tire wear, makes a racer sound like he may not be pushing the car or tires (or himself
) to their limits. 
On my 2500lb 3.2 RS flared 911 the RA-1 tires lasted twice as long as the Victoracers. I have had 3 sets of RA-1 tires unshaved and they did suck for the first track day or so, after that they ran the same lap times as the Kumhos. Running low 1:30s at Big Willow I did get 6 or 7 race days from the RA-1. 
01-02-2005, 11:40 AM
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Track Rat -
I have both a set of 008Rs and RA1s. Both are pretty old, but obviously the Yoks are pretty much ready for the Smithsonian! Yes... Vintage R Tires! The 008s still perform amazingly well, depending on the track, and I've set personal best times on them even this last year!
Yoks have always been a "soft-edge" tire in my exeprience; very forgiving and communicative. They would turn equally fast laps to most anything else if you were comfortable with them moving more than other brands (chiefly their BFG R1 contemporaries). I find the RA1s pretty much the same.
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As for longevity, I feel the RA1 will be the longest lived tire you will ever find. I have a set now with nearing 200 heat cycles and they simply will not wear out. The only way I corded one was when my front toe went wacko (7/16 toe out R/F ?). I still use the other three, and they still amaze. Granted, they don't have new tire grip anymore, but learning to drive around that still gives 80-90% performance... depending on the track.
I have a new set of RA1s waiting for next year.
I have both a set of 008Rs and RA1s. Both are pretty old, but obviously the Yoks are pretty much ready for the Smithsonian! Yes... Vintage R Tires! The 008s still perform amazingly well, depending on the track, and I've set personal best times on them even this last year!
Yoks have always been a "soft-edge" tire in my exeprience; very forgiving and communicative. They would turn equally fast laps to most anything else if you were comfortable with them moving more than other brands (chiefly their BFG R1 contemporaries). I find the RA1s pretty much the same.
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As for longevity, I feel the RA1 will be the longest lived tire you will ever find. I have a set now with nearing 200 heat cycles and they simply will not wear out. The only way I corded one was when my front toe went wacko (7/16 toe out R/F ?). I still use the other three, and they still amaze. Granted, they don't have new tire grip anymore, but learning to drive around that still gives 80-90% performance... depending on the track.
I have a new set of RA1s waiting for next year.
01-02-2005, 12:03 PM
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
I have a new set of RA1s waiting for next year.
Ted, yes I was talking about an event = 2 days or so. And yes, the GT3 is a real tire eating monster. Guys can't even get 8,000 street miles on the PS2s.
01-02-2005, 01:01 PM
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I was driving Hoosiers by my 7th event. I started on the Yoks AR032 (1 set), then on to the Toyo RA-1's(1 set). I think it is not a problem to start on R's like the Toyos. If money was not an object, I would say drive the Hoosier S04's right out of the box. I don't think I ever got good with car control until I started driving Hoosiers because as they degrade going through the heat cycles, you can feel the grip change. By heat cycle 10-12, you are skating everywhere and finding it controllable. The Hoosiers are actually pretty forgiving I think and the early cycles will push you up to a speed that will later leave you skating as the grip comes down. For me that was a good thing because It put me into a higher comfort zone with big slip angles. I've had Yoks jump out quickly with little warning. The Hoosiers seem happy at big slip angles and are easy to reign in when you need to.
01-02-2005, 03:06 PM
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Hey Carrera -
Please do not take this personally because that is not how it is intended, but I think that is very poor advice for most people. That is not because it cannot be done, and done successfully, but because unless someone has a natural affinity for driving a car swiftly, that advice will often put them up against the false ceiling of their own perceived limitations. These perceptions are usually quite a bit lower than the reality.
Even someone who is gifted has to learn how to utilize what they have. It is my experience that NO ONE is comfortable with a car the slides around a lot unless they have experienced it. Granted, the more aventurous among us will have a higher tolerance for this, but MOST people will have a low tolerance at first, and so - on sticky tires - will never reach the point where the car will move within a speed range that they can just barely stomach. Once they CAN reach that point, they can become accustomed to it. Otherwise, they will only with extreme determination.
Hoosiers are the LEAST comforting DOT tire because the limit is far beyond what most people can handle, and it is NOT a "soft-edged" tire. When they are truly "cycled-out," then they DO become pretty much like any other R tire that has seen its day. Even then, the limit is higher than the average novice can access easily, and so they generally make a lousy learning tool.
Again, not that YOU can't learn on them. I've just seen a lot of people hit that glass ceiling, and I know better.
Please do not take this personally because that is not how it is intended, but I think that is very poor advice for most people. That is not because it cannot be done, and done successfully, but because unless someone has a natural affinity for driving a car swiftly, that advice will often put them up against the false ceiling of their own perceived limitations. These perceptions are usually quite a bit lower than the reality.
Even someone who is gifted has to learn how to utilize what they have. It is my experience that NO ONE is comfortable with a car the slides around a lot unless they have experienced it. Granted, the more aventurous among us will have a higher tolerance for this, but MOST people will have a low tolerance at first, and so - on sticky tires - will never reach the point where the car will move within a speed range that they can just barely stomach. Once they CAN reach that point, they can become accustomed to it. Otherwise, they will only with extreme determination.
Hoosiers are the LEAST comforting DOT tire because the limit is far beyond what most people can handle, and it is NOT a "soft-edged" tire. When they are truly "cycled-out," then they DO become pretty much like any other R tire that has seen its day. Even then, the limit is higher than the average novice can access easily, and so they generally make a lousy learning tool.
Again, not that YOU can't learn on them. I've just seen a lot of people hit that glass ceiling, and I know better.
01-02-2005, 04:17 PM
#27
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Hey Redline,
Thanks for the comparison. I will try a set of Toyo RA 1's hopefully this year. the long life sounds like a winner to me...
With regard to the slip angle issue I posted earlier, check out the following link to SASCO sports tire page. The table on the right side of the page graphically shows what I was explaining.
http://www.sascosports.com/products/tire_info.htm
Three years ago I rode shotgun at WGI with a Ken M. in his GS Corvette. He had Hoosier radials on it and it went like stink...indicating 160 on the back straight... We were going through the fast left just before pit in, and the car "wiggled" a bit. To my "seat of the pants" feel, trained on Yokos, it wasn't much of a wiggle. However Ken said that that was a "close one" with the conditions of tires and speed. My eyes kinda grew wider after that with respect to the edgieness Hoosier Radial tires... and even more so with the relatively "kind" nature of the yokos.
I agree that a student needs to develop a comforable feel sliding a car around. If a certain tire helps with this feeling, then I believe it would make a great set of tires for DE events. They may not be the fastest out there because of that tire choice, but those tires will allow their skills to advance, keep their interest and not bust the tire budget.
Thanks for the comparison. I will try a set of Toyo RA 1's hopefully this year. the long life sounds like a winner to me...
With regard to the slip angle issue I posted earlier, check out the following link to SASCO sports tire page. The table on the right side of the page graphically shows what I was explaining.
http://www.sascosports.com/products/tire_info.htm
Three years ago I rode shotgun at WGI with a Ken M. in his GS Corvette. He had Hoosier radials on it and it went like stink...indicating 160 on the back straight... We were going through the fast left just before pit in, and the car "wiggled" a bit. To my "seat of the pants" feel, trained on Yokos, it wasn't much of a wiggle. However Ken said that that was a "close one" with the conditions of tires and speed. My eyes kinda grew wider after that with respect to the edgieness Hoosier Radial tires... and even more so with the relatively "kind" nature of the yokos.
I agree that a student needs to develop a comforable feel sliding a car around. If a certain tire helps with this feeling, then I believe it would make a great set of tires for DE events. They may not be the fastest out there because of that tire choice, but those tires will allow their skills to advance, keep their interest and not bust the tire budget.
01-02-2005, 04:20 PM
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Redlineman
I know this bumps up against conventional thinking and I can only speak for myself, but I find the Hoosiers to be pretty forgiving in terms of the break away edge and I've used up 10 sets of the S04's. You have more experience than I do instructing so I will defer to you, but as I said, I don't think I really started to learn good car control until I made the switch and started to feel different levels of grip. I think students are going to have to learn how to deal with a sliding car at some point and the Hoosiers will definetely get them sliding as they cycle out.
I know this bumps up against conventional thinking and I can only speak for myself, but I find the Hoosiers to be pretty forgiving in terms of the break away edge and I've used up 10 sets of the S04's. You have more experience than I do instructing so I will defer to you, but as I said, I don't think I really started to learn good car control until I made the switch and started to feel different levels of grip. I think students are going to have to learn how to deal with a sliding car at some point and the Hoosiers will definetely get them sliding as they cycle out.
01-02-2005, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Z-man
Great thread, Sunday! Excellent advise.
Now, a question I've been pondering... (Kinda off-topic, autox related)
Currently, I am on R-compounds - Toyo Proxes RA-1's. I like them alot - good compromise between more grip than street shoes, and more durability than some other R's and slicks. Plus I can run in the rain with them. Current car: 944S2, mostly stock, but I'm considering a suspension upgrade (coil overs, helper springs...etc) over the winter.
I use these Toyos for both DE's and autocross, but I'm considering getting something 'grippier' for autox - either the Hoosier A3S03's or the Kumho V710's (?). I don't think I'm ready for slicks at DE's, plus I really don't need them - I'm still too far from the edge with my R's!
So my question is this: should I just stick with R's for both autox and DE's, or go with a grippier tire for autox, and stay on R's for DE's? Will switching to stickier tires for autox adversely effect my DE? I really don't think so, but I don't have any experience with gummy tires at autox.
Or, since I may have a new suspension, would I be better off just working with that instead of changing both the suspension and the tire compound for autox?
Thanks!
-Z-man.
Now, a question I've been pondering... (Kinda off-topic, autox related)
Currently, I am on R-compounds - Toyo Proxes RA-1's. I like them alot - good compromise between more grip than street shoes, and more durability than some other R's and slicks. Plus I can run in the rain with them. Current car: 944S2, mostly stock, but I'm considering a suspension upgrade (coil overs, helper springs...etc) over the winter.
I use these Toyos for both DE's and autocross, but I'm considering getting something 'grippier' for autox - either the Hoosier A3S03's or the Kumho V710's (?). I don't think I'm ready for slicks at DE's, plus I really don't need them - I'm still too far from the edge with my R's!
So my question is this: should I just stick with R's for both autox and DE's, or go with a grippier tire for autox, and stay on R's for DE's? Will switching to stickier tires for autox adversely effect my DE? I really don't think so, but I don't have any experience with gummy tires at autox.
Or, since I may have a new suspension, would I be better off just working with that instead of changing both the suspension and the tire compound for autox?
Thanks!
-Z-man.