P.Po

I heard a rumour that next year F1 and ALMS is giving out championship points for "winning" corner entry speeds!!!

They apparently also have a new "Max G-Sum Cup" for the lap wth the highest G-Sum.

Apparently lap times are no longer an indicator of driver performance....

-Patrick

joey bagadonuts

C'mon, Patick. That's not necessary. Tim (ColorChange) is trying to "raise the game" of this entire Forum, IMHO. He may be taking a different route than most of us but his contributions are well-intended and appreciated. He's also admitted that he doesn't have all the answers and has a lot to learn so let's cut him some slack. Okay?

ColorChange

Thanks Joey:

Here is some more analysis of turn 9. Greg, the lap I used was the best for your session 3. I found a better one of mine and I’m sure you have done better elsewhere and in your car OK? But let’s study it and maybe you can pick up some time even in your car.

You can see the Greg lifts early (Greg's speed is the black line, not my blue speed line I am pointing to). I don’t lift until much later. I trail brake and turn in until I am going 25 mph faster than Greg on entry. Part of that is my cars accel advantage, but the other part is Greg lifts too early or takes the wrong line on entry. I carry a nice speed advantage well into the entry and then chicken out and Greg catches up. Further through the turn, he buries me as usual.

P.Po

Oh... I didn't mean any harm... sorry if you guys took it that way.

"He's also admitted that he doesn't have all the answers..."

But getting him to admit it certainly took a lot of work, didn't it? =)

I agree 100% that CC has sparked a lot of very good discussion and debate and has certainly made this area a lot more interesting. I can also tell you that compared to CC I add very little value to this board. But the bottom line is that I don't really care who is right or wrong or whatever, I just wish I was out on the track with the oppurtunity to have all of the knowldegable people on this board help me go faster.

-Patrick

joey bagadonuts

Nice.

Mike in Chi

CC:

"The driver has two jobs, max g's and pick the best line. You need to do both to be fast."

I'm sensing you are looking for validation of what you are currently doing. But you are missing an important matter of primacy. One that you earlier have, in effect, already agreed with.

The PRIMARY objective for lap time is the right line. Then, and only, then do you want to maximumize the Gs for THAT speciific (and optimal) line. Any other lines through that specific corner may give higher Gs but will be slower, if not much slower.

Don't even consider how many Gs you are pulling until you get the line right. Read that line again. The reason I say that is, the right and optimal line in a corner may require significantly less Gs to be fast than the car is capable of in that corner.

Not to belabor something we have already discussed, but a low hp car forces you to learn this. Again I think you'll advance quicker when you are in the seat of that kind of car.

If you need a torque fix now and then, you can still take out your 600hp Beast.

M758

I have said it before and I will say it again.

I learned a ton going from a 250 hp 944 Turbo to a 150 hp 944.

Just trying to not get run over teaches you to be faster.

ColorChange

Mike:
Looking for validation that I did well on at least one tiny part of the course? OK, I'll be honest. I am extremely competitive and if I can beat a driver as good as Greg even on one tiny part of the course, on one lap, and even though he is in a strange car (like I am), I feel good about that. Next year I want to push him on more parts of the track. It will be years if ever that I can beat him straight up, but that will be a longer term goal.

No, I don’t agree. You need to do both as they are both so important. The primary objective of a race driver in qualifying is lap time. In a race, the primary objective is to finish first. If you want to be fastest, you have to max g-sum on the ideal line. My primary objectives were learning a new car and learning a new track so these objectives did not apply, especially early on.

I disagree. IMO, and for me, (enough qualifiers?), driving the assumed line well below the limit is easy and of minor value in identifying the ideal line at the limit (it is very good for vision etc. as I said earlier). First of all, it is difficult to identify accurately because where you are forced to 4-wheel drift to at track out may be very different than where you think you will end up at and drive out to well below the limit.

Secondly, and more importantly, I feel being comfortable at the limit is more important first, and OFF line on exits at least. You should be closer on entries and apexes. Here is why. If you are at the limit and make a mistake in a turn, you have room to correct the error. If you make a mistake late in a turn, on the ideal line, you have just left the pavement. Once I feel comfortable taking my car to the limit, then I will try to drive the ideal line at the limit. I think this is the safest approach.

Patrick:
I’m a little sensitive OK, I never EVER said I had all the answers.

macnewma

This is some pretty cool stuff. I think the DAS stuff is interesting, but I am not sure how much it is worth...but then again what do I know?

CC, there are a few things that I see. First, I know turn 9 ok and it is probably the toughest turn to get right, and it really dictates the momentum carried through the largest section of track (probably 1/3 of the track). The corner sort of defies your vision (at least it did mine). It behaves more like a huge hairpin than a slow developing corner. My first reaction was to double-apex or to late-apex when not going for the double.

For turn 9, I would guess that my hypothetical DAS screen would look similar to yours as I was carrying too much speed coming in. The first time used adequate braking and took a better line, I felt like I was being shot out of a cannon and turn 10 came up in what seemed like 1/2 the time. I was also able to utilize the trackout better. (That first time that 10 came up so fast, I missed the apex on 10 which I had finally gotten down pat. The key to speed on the 9-10-1 section of Putnam is hitting turn 9 which isn't easy and then just carrying momentum through 10.)

On turn 7, I was advised to slow down to a crawl. This is hard to get used to as you take 5 and 6 so easy. Once I really got on the brakes for 7, I realized that I was able to get the car turned more easily and sooner and thus I could begin accelerating much sooner.

To go back to what SundaryDriver said about your concentration on corner entry, I think there is some validity to what he said, but I would like to put it a little differently. Although I am sure you are a good student by Fishman's accounts, I think you may need to actually concentrate MORE on corner entry....BUT not on maximizing corner entry. I think there is an appropriate order by which you can maximize your learning curve. This also applies to ultimately extracting every second out of a lap.

1a. Establish the ability to drive a consistent line
1b. Work on smoothly transitions (throttle, brake, turn)
2. Establish the ability to maximize the exit speed by finding a good line
3. Establish the ability to maximize the entry speed while not diminishing 1 or 2

I think the fact that you are pushing the entry speed closer to max might be hindering your ability on 1 and 2. When I watch pros race, what I see when they really "turn it on" is the level that they push their entry speeds. They are so damn good, that the differences between the pros and especially the top ones, are not in 1 or 2 as much as 3 and how far they can push that. This is just "IMO".

What I am getting at is, just for grins, slow down into the corners, work on smoothness, line and exit...THEN once you have become proficient at those, dabble in maximizing entry speed.

Oh yeah, how much do you guys think the advanced beast he is piloting is masking his weaknesses in smoothness and line? I am just curious as I have never driven anything close to it. My 19yr old 300hp mouse aint exactly the same.

Otherwise, it sounds like you had a blast so that is great. We will see each other at the track next year and I would really like to see how that whole DAS setup works.

Keep it up!

Max

Mike in Chi

CC

I'm talking lowest lap time. Let's not add racing because the number of variables grow exponentially. There are already many variables here.

There is a fast line for a car. Yes it is influenced by the car itself (and the Gs it is capable of). You'll get to the optimal answer quicker, by finding a fast line first, then adding Gs to determine the optimal. Said in another way, emphasizing Gs too soon will slow the optimization process.

Cases in point: a tight left, right leading on to a loooong straight. Maximize the Gs on the first and you're hosed. Another: T13 (Billy Mitchell Bridge) at Road America in the full course vs short course configurations.

And by the way, no slam intended. I was just offering some analysis from my experience. Most of us are looking for ways to be better than Greg (and Norm and Jim) even if only in small ways. And I have had a lot more chances to do it

"If you make a mistake late in a turn, on the ideal line, you have just left the pavement. "

That can't happen. If it did, it is due to serious driver error if you are on the right line. Once you get past the apex, it's usually pretty easy unless you do something stupid like snap off the throttle. (I don't see how those kind of actions have relevance to what's being discussed. And those kinds of actions can screw you up from the breaking zone to after track out when the car is settled and straight.)

I'm enjoying the discussion. I hope you and others are as well.

But gotta take a break and find out about missing cam gear teeth on my motor. Gulp.

ColorChange

Max:
I agree that 9 is really tough and critical. I don’t think I came into 9 too hot though (7 and others for sure, but not 9). The data shows I should have been able to hold the g-sum around 1 at the 8,000 ft mark but I wasn’t good enough and/or too afraid. Other than that, I think the 25 mph difference is real.

Yes, I agree completely on 7. Greg was with me as I kept saying “That’s still too damn fast. Boy is that a sucker corner.” And yes, I did a lot of sucking but eventually slowed more and got closer to my marks.

Don’t confuse the discussion of the particular of corner entry as being my focus. It isn’t, just that the data has lead us here. I think Greg would agree, I need seat time and to reduce my variability; I’m still all over the place. Once I get some semblance of order, I will start refining my lines and raising my g-sum.

Good corner approach. Greg, please feel free to comment. Here is my self assessment:

Poor near the limit 1a. Establish the ability to drive a consistent line
pretty good 1b. Work on smoothly transitions (throttle, brake, turn)
fair 2. Establish the ability to maximize the exit speed by finding a good line
poor 3. Establish the ability to maximize the entry speed while not diminishing 1 or 2

I agree that I should take it easier on entries until I’m better through the rest. I just have a real hard time doing it at the track. As I said earlier, the car covers a multitude of sins if you just look at lap times, but if you look at data, it’s all there.

Mike:
I see your point but still think learning the limit first is better, then drive the limit on the line.

P.Po

I am happy you are here starting these discussions! I guess I just like to play to rough. No harm intended.

Now I will stop posting so we can get back to the real topic!


-Patrick

Mike in Chi

CC

For me the limit - but on the wrong line - felt fast, but wasn't in comparison to others. Giving line primacy helped. A lot. I appreciate your eagerness to learn. Me too. I'm still learning as I study the lines of guys like Karl Poeltl, Keith Clark, Chris Inglot, and Jim Child as they motor away from me in F.

macnewma

CC-

Actually, CC, I was thinking turn 8, that was my mistake. You can disregard my explanation of turn 9 as it really refers to turn 8. I still think that turn 8 is an opportunity to carry alot of speed through the last 2 turns where you are more likely to wreck than to pick up much time.

Maybe the difference on 9 was due to traffic. I have a hard time believing that Greg would leave 25mph off entry speed on the table if he could have managed it otherwise.

As an aside, what might be interesting is to see how much time Greg lost by ending that segment from 8-9 at 25mph slower. I am guessing it isn't that significant because you only have a 25mph advantage for a very short amount of time.

Ultimately, you are trying to minimize lap times and that might mean sacrificing a certain segment time in order to maximize a subsequent, much longer segment time.

The segment between 8-9 and then including turn 9 is relatively short. Turns 9-10 and connected as there is no braking zone between the 2. This means that what you do in turn 9 has a huge effect on turn 10 and subsequently an enormous effect on your lap time since the long straight follows it. He may decide to give up a very small amount of speed/time on turn 9 to ensure maximum exit speed on turn 10. Does he leave some time out there? Maybe, but not likely very much time.

Also, CC, I am not saying corner entry is your PRIMARY focus, but that you have developed the habit of coming closer to maximum on entry speed. Due to your relatively novice skills, this maximization may be hindering your ability to work on your line.

Max

Bob Rouleau

CC - It is obvious from Greg's comments that you have made astonishing progress given the very limited seat time and, until recently, lack of instruction. For a guy who started with a lot of theoretical information and little else you have done remarkably well.

Things I find rewarding about this thread are:

- You finally got some instruction and it was worthwhile. I think you heard that suggestion a few times already

- You are looking for a pat on the back because you went faster in one part of the corner than a guy with vastly more experience. The fact that you were slower through the corner in spite of being faster on the entry stands as mute testimony to the fact that you were - slower. That's not the point, you're comparing yourself to a much more experienced driver. That you can do that at all is evidence of your progress.

- You developed an appreciation for the importance of the right line (which is not always intuitively obvious) and experienced a practical demonstration of same.

- You have acknowledged the importance of being on the right line all the time every time.

- You experienced a case where a slower entry speed resulted in a faster exit which results in a lower segment time. This is never obvious for newcomers to the game and is (in my experience) difficult for drivers to accept.

- You have been complimented by a very good driver for your progress.

All these things are positive. Please don't get hung up on DAS - it's a tool - excellent for comparing two drivers but it is not the end all and be all.

Rgds,