My street tires scream at the track (DE). How am i driving?
09-21-2004, 10:21 PM
#16
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Trumper glad to hear your experience, I am in my first year of DE, and having read most of the posts here, i had come to the same conclusion. All I want to do this year is learn to be smooth,(difficult, especially at this stage of 100% breaking, 100%steering and 100% accelaration all done gradually, but I want all of them to merge smoothley into one turn) and am planning to go for a professional driving school, next year. Great to hear that had worked for you. (P.S: frankly i thought with my instructor drives, even they weren't always smooth, i guess that's the most difficult and I want to get good at it first, as the "book" and "rennlist folks" say 
)
)
Jeeva, your on the right path! Concentrate on smoothness and "hitting your marks" by following the line!
Speed comes with "seat time", remember your here to "have fun" !
09-21-2004, 10:35 PM
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I'd add that IMO not all R-Compounds are created equal. I recently went from street tires to RA-1s (full depth) as my track tire. Just AXed on them this past weekend. On the downside, no where near the grip of Hoosiers or Kumho Ecstas, on the plus side far more predicable at breakaway and extremely controllable and after a day at LRP and 1 AX they barely seemed scrubbed in, so I suspect they'll last far longer. I think they represent a good compromise for those of us looking for a little extra grip, but aren't quite ready for the sharper characteristics of Hoosiers on track.
So I guess I'd ask the question of the cognesenti, would you agree/diagree that for intermediate level drivers contemplating making the shift to R-Compounds should probably start with a full depth Kuhmo or Toyo before stepping up to Cups or Hoosiers?
So I guess I'd ask the question of the cognesenti, would you agree/diagree that for intermediate level drivers contemplating making the shift to R-Compounds should probably start with a full depth Kuhmo or Toyo before stepping up to Cups or Hoosiers?
09-21-2004, 11:28 PM
#19
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Ah, how I miss driving by ear...
I favor bone stock and street tires to start, working on seat time. It's very convenient to be able to drive by feel AND by ear. I did this for almost four years (about 15 track days per year or more) in the old 158 hp wondercar and REALLY believe it made me better driver much faster than if I started down the slippery slope right away. Good street tires that can take the abuse at the track are a must! Watch them carefully as survival of track use was not their top design parameter. I loved the Michelin MXX3's for this, not far from an R compound in reality.
Started instructing a year or two ago, and this really helped as well. I am a firm believer in the concept of "teaching leads to mastery". Nothing like having to really focus on the basics, over and over again, until you kinda level off in the learning curve.
Then (and only then IMHO) is it time for something more... More go, more suspension, more tire, more brake, all the above... Take your pick. I stepped up to the 968 and strapped on the RA-1's in the widest size that would fit. The funny thing is, I really didn't see a "night and day" difference in the tires over the MXX3's. Suspension will be next, but the core was all built around a stock car on street tires and measuring the improvement over time. If you plot it, you will see when the curve flattens out.
Just remember, when you leave the street tires you will largely give up the "driving by ear" luxury. RA-1's still sing a little, but it ain't the same. When she evolves into full F-stock, it'll be time for Hoosiers.
I favor bone stock and street tires to start, working on seat time. It's very convenient to be able to drive by feel AND by ear. I did this for almost four years (about 15 track days per year or more) in the old 158 hp wondercar and REALLY believe it made me better driver much faster than if I started down the slippery slope right away. Good street tires that can take the abuse at the track are a must! Watch them carefully as survival of track use was not their top design parameter. I loved the Michelin MXX3's for this, not far from an R compound in reality.
Started instructing a year or two ago, and this really helped as well. I am a firm believer in the concept of "teaching leads to mastery". Nothing like having to really focus on the basics, over and over again, until you kinda level off in the learning curve.
Then (and only then IMHO) is it time for something more... More go, more suspension, more tire, more brake, all the above... Take your pick. I stepped up to the 968 and strapped on the RA-1's in the widest size that would fit. The funny thing is, I really didn't see a "night and day" difference in the tires over the MXX3's. Suspension will be next, but the core was all built around a stock car on street tires and measuring the improvement over time. If you plot it, you will see when the curve flattens out.
Just remember, when you leave the street tires you will largely give up the "driving by ear" luxury. RA-1's still sing a little, but it ain't the same. When she evolves into full F-stock, it'll be time for Hoosiers.
09-22-2004, 08:54 AM
#20
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Jeeva -
I will make an assumption to make my point. I assume that the instructors you rode with were using a fairly high percentage of their car's potential and driving fairly swiftly, in both cases more so than you are currently?
In that case I would offer that there can indeed be times - from the novice persepctive - when driving swiftly requires certain means that seem less than you assumed smooth to be. The truth of the matter is that smoothness is relative to the task at hand. Certain cars, setups, tracks, sections of tracks, or other circumstances sometimes require some fairly assertive techniques that do not appear to jive with what you are being told you needed to do. That is why it "can" be counterproductive for students to ride with instructors!
In reality, and approaching the limit of a given car, the driver sometimes has to MAKE the car do what is necessary, and this can give the impression of roughness compared to how the student thinks he drives. Often times, the student may not realize for whatever reason that all of this is taking place at a far higher level than they themselves are driving, and that is the key. The "roughness" subconsciously sinks in without the reality of circumstance factored in.
Then again, I'm sure not all instructors ARE smooth!
I will make an assumption to make my point. I assume that the instructors you rode with were using a fairly high percentage of their car's potential and driving fairly swiftly, in both cases more so than you are currently?
In that case I would offer that there can indeed be times - from the novice persepctive - when driving swiftly requires certain means that seem less than you assumed smooth to be. The truth of the matter is that smoothness is relative to the task at hand. Certain cars, setups, tracks, sections of tracks, or other circumstances sometimes require some fairly assertive techniques that do not appear to jive with what you are being told you needed to do. That is why it "can" be counterproductive for students to ride with instructors!
In reality, and approaching the limit of a given car, the driver sometimes has to MAKE the car do what is necessary, and this can give the impression of roughness compared to how the student thinks he drives. Often times, the student may not realize for whatever reason that all of this is taking place at a far higher level than they themselves are driving, and that is the key. The "roughness" subconsciously sinks in without the reality of circumstance factored in.
Then again, I'm sure not all instructors ARE smooth!
09-22-2004, 12:11 PM
#21
Trumper... the book is "the book" becasue it works... very good account... I always tell students the hight of the pyramid is determined by the width of the base.... build a good foundation of fundamentals and the speed willl come and come safely.
IMHO, smooth will take you to about 95%... after that some amount of toss and catch is required to take the car to the ragged edge....the car must be sliding a little to get maximum grip. This may look less smooth, but is what is required... at least on street cars.
This does not mean howling broadslides and hacking the wheel... the weight of the car is still smoothly balanced... but it is more active in terms of steering and countersteering... however you must be able to drive at 95% consistently to move beyond it.... so perfect smoothness is still the foundtion.
Finally R tires will squeal.... its just that there is a very narrow band between full contact and spin... tires generally have max grip with just a small amout of slip, and slip will produce some squeal...but it is nowhere near as loud as steet tires... many street tires actually have squeal engineered into them as a safety feature to warn drivers of impending doom... of course this varies widely from tire to tire
IMHO, smooth will take you to about 95%... after that some amount of toss and catch is required to take the car to the ragged edge....the car must be sliding a little to get maximum grip. This may look less smooth, but is what is required... at least on street cars.
This does not mean howling broadslides and hacking the wheel... the weight of the car is still smoothly balanced... but it is more active in terms of steering and countersteering... however you must be able to drive at 95% consistently to move beyond it.... so perfect smoothness is still the foundtion.
Finally R tires will squeal.... its just that there is a very narrow band between full contact and spin... tires generally have max grip with just a small amout of slip, and slip will produce some squeal...but it is nowhere near as loud as steet tires... many street tires actually have squeal engineered into them as a safety feature to warn drivers of impending doom... of course this varies widely from tire to tire
09-22-2004, 12:37 PM
#22
Trumper... the book is "the book" becasue it works... very good account... I always tell students the hight of the pyramid is determined by the width of the base.... build a good foundation of fundamentals and the speed willl come and come safely.
IMHO, smooth will take you to about 95%... after that some amount of toss and catch is required to take the car to the ragged edge....the car must be sliding a little to get maximum grip. This may look less smooth, but is what is required... at least on street cars.
This does not mean howling broadslides and hacking the wheel... the weight of the car is still smoothly balanced... but it is more active in terms of steering and countersteering... however you must be able to drive at 95% consistently to move beyond it.... so perfect smoothness is still the foundtion.
Finally R tires will squeal.... its just that there is a very narrow band between full contact and spin... tires generally have max grip with just a small amout of slip, and slip will produce some squeal...but it is nowhere near as loud as steet tires... many street tires actually have squeal engineered into them as a safety feature to warn drivers of impending doom... of course this varies widely from tire to tire
IMHO, smooth will take you to about 95%... after that some amount of toss and catch is required to take the car to the ragged edge....the car must be sliding a little to get maximum grip. This may look less smooth, but is what is required... at least on street cars.
This does not mean howling broadslides and hacking the wheel... the weight of the car is still smoothly balanced... but it is more active in terms of steering and countersteering... however you must be able to drive at 95% consistently to move beyond it.... so perfect smoothness is still the foundtion.
Finally R tires will squeal.... its just that there is a very narrow band between full contact and spin... tires generally have max grip with just a small amout of slip, and slip will produce some squeal...but it is nowhere near as loud as steet tires... many street tires actually have squeal engineered into them as a safety feature to warn drivers of impending doom... of course this varies widely from tire to tire
09-22-2004, 12:38 PM
#23
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Alpine -
Bone stock on street tires. TWO whole days of track experience, and he was lapping 10-15 seconds faster than we were. Granted, his lines were not that crisp, but his car control was amazing. Frankly, I was stunned.
Granted, a lot of it was the driver.
Bone stock on street tires. TWO whole days of track experience, and he was lapping 10-15 seconds faster than we were. Granted, his lines were not that crisp, but his car control was amazing. Frankly, I was stunned.
Granted, a lot of it was the driver.
Funny how every sport has it's bling bling with attendant marketing drumbeat to persuade the sportsman that equipment will make him a star. Every sport has it: skiiing, fly fishing, golf, show jumping! I've been out-skiied by the Septugenerian on ancient black Heads, out-fished by an uncle with a fiberglass Shakespeare rod, forget about golf...
I instructed at the Mid OH Audi event this year, and was on the track with special guest Randy Pobst. He blew by my 911sc racecar with ease, driving some participant's stock tt. I meekly ambled by later on to see was it at least one of the 225hp turbos. It was, but on street tires.
Iconoclastic screed: Note to DE'ers everywhere: it's a free country, buy what you want/can, but R compounds way down the list of variables related to the task of learning to lap faster.
09-22-2004, 12:47 PM
#25
Brandon... moral of story? If you can't drive a stock car on street tires to the limit, what makes anybody think they can drive a full race mod car on race tires to the limit?
We all work so hard to get to the level we are... its hard to concieve how the pros could be that much better.... but they are....
We all work so hard to get to the level we are... its hard to concieve how the pros could be that much better.... but they are....
09-22-2004, 01:07 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by RedlineMan
Jeeva -
I will make an assumption to make my point. I assume that the instructors you rode with were using a fairly high percentage of their car's potential and driving fairly swiftly, in both cases more so than you are currently?
You are absolutely right, the boxterS was flying faster than I never knew anything on four wheels can do.
In that case I would offer that there can indeed be times - from the novice persepctive - when driving swiftly requires certain means that seem less than you assumed smooth to be. The truth of the matter is that smoothness is relative to the task at hand. Certain cars, setups, tracks, sections of tracks, or other circumstances sometimes require some fairly assertive techniques that do not appear to jive with what you are being told you needed to do. That is why it "can" be counterproductive for students to ride with instructors!
I actually may have my instructor drive in the group immediately above mine ( as opposed to with the rest of the instructors), which IMO is better for learning purposes. Smoothness is definitely relative to the task at hand. I think for the same task the more experienced the driver is the smoother the execution be.
In reality, and approaching the limit of a given car, the driver sometimes has to MAKE the car do what is necessary, and this can give the impression of roughness compared to how the student thinks he drives. Often times, the student may not realize for whatever reason that all of this is taking place at a far higher level than they themselves are driving, and that is the key. The "roughness" subconsciously sinks in without the reality of circumstance factored in.
I would'nt know, but I'll take your word for it
Then again, I'm sure not all instructors ARE smooth!
I will make an assumption to make my point. I assume that the instructors you rode with were using a fairly high percentage of their car's potential and driving fairly swiftly, in both cases more so than you are currently?
You are absolutely right, the boxterS was flying faster than I never knew anything on four wheels can do.
In that case I would offer that there can indeed be times - from the novice persepctive - when driving swiftly requires certain means that seem less than you assumed smooth to be. The truth of the matter is that smoothness is relative to the task at hand. Certain cars, setups, tracks, sections of tracks, or other circumstances sometimes require some fairly assertive techniques that do not appear to jive with what you are being told you needed to do. That is why it "can" be counterproductive for students to ride with instructors!
I actually may have my instructor drive in the group immediately above mine ( as opposed to with the rest of the instructors), which IMO is better for learning purposes. Smoothness is definitely relative to the task at hand. I think for the same task the more experienced the driver is the smoother the execution be.
In reality, and approaching the limit of a given car, the driver sometimes has to MAKE the car do what is necessary, and this can give the impression of roughness compared to how the student thinks he drives. Often times, the student may not realize for whatever reason that all of this is taking place at a far higher level than they themselves are driving, and that is the key. The "roughness" subconsciously sinks in without the reality of circumstance factored in.
I would'nt know, but I'll take your word for it
Then again, I'm sure not all instructors ARE smooth!
I also think squeeling tires are at 9/10 or 10/10 of that particular car's setup, which is definitely too much for anyone other than experienced driver's in DE's, no.
09-22-2004, 01:41 PM
#27
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Tried to post this right after my last note, but got boxed out by one of JDs backup sessions. And I REALLY like the pyramid analogy!!
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trumper and Dave have set the shining example here!
... For ALL to follow as they contemplate scaling the heights of performance driving. Learn the true essence of what you need to learn at the point you need to learn it. Going back to try and learn max car control with stock grip when you are kitted far higher than that is NOT easy.
The guy who learns and knows car control in stock street car mode will embrace the limit of any future upgrades with far more confidence and Unconscious Competence. The guy who jumps to a hot setup right away - in his formative years - will likely meet the limit of his rocket with trepidation and fear, and likely not know why. It is because the car has been doing all the work all this time. The Driver's potential was not nurtured in its proper time and setting.
I like RJay's analogy on tires. Hoosiers are definitely the hot ticket for all out performance (at least the 03s were), but they are not forgiving, and do not represent a good value for the average weekend warrior. I did not find the MPSCs difficult to drive at all, and enjoyed them, but they are not quite the value because of price. Yoko's have always been a forgiving tire, and given decent value. No idea about Kumhos, but I don't think they last that long.
The RA1 is the King of value. Good grip, forgiveness, and phenomenal wear. Bang for the Buck Champion!
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trumper and Dave have set the shining example here!
... For ALL to follow as they contemplate scaling the heights of performance driving. Learn the true essence of what you need to learn at the point you need to learn it. Going back to try and learn max car control with stock grip when you are kitted far higher than that is NOT easy.
The guy who learns and knows car control in stock street car mode will embrace the limit of any future upgrades with far more confidence and Unconscious Competence. The guy who jumps to a hot setup right away - in his formative years - will likely meet the limit of his rocket with trepidation and fear, and likely not know why. It is because the car has been doing all the work all this time. The Driver's potential was not nurtured in its proper time and setting.
I like RJay's analogy on tires. Hoosiers are definitely the hot ticket for all out performance (at least the 03s were), but they are not forgiving, and do not represent a good value for the average weekend warrior. I did not find the MPSCs difficult to drive at all, and enjoyed them, but they are not quite the value because of price. Yoko's have always been a forgiving tire, and given decent value. No idea about Kumhos, but I don't think they last that long.
The RA1 is the King of value. Good grip, forgiveness, and phenomenal wear. Bang for the Buck Champion!
09-22-2004, 02:14 PM
#28
Modern Hi-Po street tires are so good they are almost as fast as the Rs.... they just tend to fade out quicker. Not a big Khumo fan myself... personally, I think they don't wear well, don;t stick well, and fade... other than that....
So far the MPSCs have been a great DE tire.... definately not as fast as Hoosiers, and take a long time to worm up... but very forgiving... they will take alot of slip angle and break away very smoothly. After 9 track days they still barely look worn, and I beat the snot out of them.... at the Glen, I got towed off the track with my rear wheel locked solid... the rear MPSC dragged the whole way up the pit lane... drove the same tire at Summit 3 weeks later with no problems... no flat spot... not brake lock-up....a Hoosier would have worn to the third layer of air in the same situation.
Sure the MPSCs are pricy, but at this rate, it looks like the cost per track day might work out ot be very good.... we'll see.
Amazingly enough, I have a set of hoosier SO3 that are a year old, have two races, 3-4 DE days and three race practice days on them, and are still going strong, and producing very competitive times.... I still wouldn't recommend them as a DE tire, but certainly this set has worn way better than I ever would have expected.
So far the MPSCs have been a great DE tire.... definately not as fast as Hoosiers, and take a long time to worm up... but very forgiving... they will take alot of slip angle and break away very smoothly. After 9 track days they still barely look worn, and I beat the snot out of them.... at the Glen, I got towed off the track with my rear wheel locked solid... the rear MPSC dragged the whole way up the pit lane... drove the same tire at Summit 3 weeks later with no problems... no flat spot... not brake lock-up....a Hoosier would have worn to the third layer of air in the same situation.
Sure the MPSCs are pricy, but at this rate, it looks like the cost per track day might work out ot be very good.... we'll see.
Amazingly enough, I have a set of hoosier SO3 that are a year old, have two races, 3-4 DE days and three race practice days on them, and are still going strong, and producing very competitive times.... I still wouldn't recommend them as a DE tire, but certainly this set has worn way better than I ever would have expected.
09-22-2004, 06:22 PM
#29
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Well if any of you Jersey or New York guys will be at LRP Thursday with Jersey Shore and you are instructors, maybe you can come along for a ride with me. Car# 527 White 944 Turbo.
09-22-2004, 06:57 PM
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John H,
Just a quick caution about "old" tires. Don't know how old your tires were, but after five (six years max) years or so, you have to start worrying about internal strucural integrity, even if they have not been used. Not only does the rubber get hard, steel belts can rust at the belt edges, and the next thing you know, you have a separation, and at best a tire peeling. Of course there is no certainty of this, and I know lots of guys who drive old 'collected' tires, but it IS a risk.
Just a quick caution about "old" tires. Don't know how old your tires were, but after five (six years max) years or so, you have to start worrying about internal strucural integrity, even if they have not been used. Not only does the rubber get hard, steel belts can rust at the belt edges, and the next thing you know, you have a separation, and at best a tire peeling. Of course there is no certainty of this, and I know lots of guys who drive old 'collected' tires, but it IS a risk.
