kwoksrus

Thanks guys, for sharing your experiences and the great comments. Bob's "row the gear box" trick is most interesting, so is Fred's tip on taping the rev counter. Will try them out and find the technique most comfortable to me. I have the habit of shifting through the gears and using the engine to help slow the car down. May be I should not be doing this too often after the comments on engine wear.

Cheers,
Stanely

RedlineMan

Stan -

If you are relying on the engine to slow the car, why have brakes? The brakes will do this 10 times faster than the engine, so your braking distances must be incredibly long.

On the street, most people let the engine do some of the slowing. On the track, you don't have time to waste coasting along. Brakes are for braking, engines are for accelerating.

DGaunt

I vote for skip shifting. For me, this is the KISS solution. Keep it simple, the less shifting, the less mistakes and the less breaking of concentration on the really important thing----braking. Sometimes if it is a big spread (like your 5-2 shift, I might go 5-3-2, but with a 2.7 how many time do I get into 5th? LOL. As far as over-reving is concerned, if you brake enough for the corner, and you slelect the appropriate gear for the corner, you can't really over rev the engine, unless you downshift way too early.

APKhaos

Its good to hear that Derek Bell supports the skip shift approach.
One of the first things I teach [certainly in the first day] is:
1. Stay on the gas until its time to brake
2. Brake like you mean it, with the wheels straight
3. At the end of the braking effort, get the gear you need for the corner and GO

Leaving the gear shift until close to the corner entry speed is safer [less risk of a zinger], easier on the equipment, and more accurate. It also has a subtle advantage in making the last part of the braking effort merge with the first stage of corner entry. Seamless and smooth when you get it right.

kwoksrus

Hi. Most of the you say that double clutching is not neccessary in modern cars. But if you blip to match rev, aren't you double clutching? Clutch once to free gear, blip, clutch again to engage gear.
Or is bliping done during the first and only declutch, before engaging the gear?

Appreciate your help in clarifying this.

Cheers.
Stanley

M758

It goes like this.

Brake and slow the car.

Push Clutch in, move gearshift into proper gear, blip throttle to right RPM, Release clutch.

Double clutch goes like this

brake to slow car.

Push clutch in, move gear shift to neutral, release clutch, blip throttle, Push clutch in, Engage proper gear, blip throttle, release clutch.


Back in the pre syncro days you need to match shaft speeds in the tranny since you could not get the car into the right gear without doing this first. Now with syncros they match the shaft speeds for you. You still have to blip the throttle to match the engine speed to that of the tranny however.

RedlineMan

I might also add...

...That the term "matching revs" applies to gentle street driving with old crashboxes, is misleading, and actually erroneous for our purposes. I know a lot of people that have driven along approaching a corner, with the clutch disengaged, carefully pressing on the throttle, easing up the revs and trying to literally "match" the driveline speeds. This is incorrect.

Given proper timing - which takes practice - you just reach over and give the throttle a healthy boot. As long as you get the revs AT LEAST as high as the driveline, you are fine. A bit more is OK too, and does not cause any real problems. A LOT more is not a big problem, but should be avoided.

Again, my article on the subject covers all these points.
http://redlinerennsport.homestead.co...18HeelToe.html

Carrera51

I've done it both ways. Since my 915 box has 4 years of hard driving (DE and CR) 5-2 downshifts produce a slight crunch (I assume worn syncros). If I go like this: go from 5-3 (actually pull the shifter back into 4 then up to 3, let the clutch out, then clutch in pull back to 2 (no crunch). All of the above includes the proper throttle blips when called for.

I remember watching an ALMS race a Road Atlanta (1-2 years ago). They had the foot-cam in a GT3 while Sascha Maassen was driving. It looked as if he was going down through the gears.

Another good thread by the way.

M758

Yeah I have seen viedo of the pro's gowing and hitting each gear in the box. Seen this at places like daytona as well. Real artisty to see a guy heel & toe each shift from 6th to second with mechaical precision.

mitch236

I remember reading that for DE, you can go straight to the gear you need once the car has slowed enough (like 5th to 2nd) for racing, you want to always have an appropriate gear available in case you need an evasive maneuver.

Does this sound right?

Larry Herman

I am not sure about that. If I am hard on the brakes, I'm not sure what kind of evasive maneuver I could make, short of running off the track. It is all I can do to get the car slowed for the turn-in, so where would an application of power in the available gear help me? Also, while braking, I am already in gear, until the moment I downshift to the appropriate gear for the turn.

Bob Rouleau

Mitch and Larry I row by gear box as a result of racing, I don't let the clutch out in the intermediate gears going from 5th to second for example but I could. Larry I think Mitch is referring to a situation where someone is trying a heroic late braking pass up the inside. You may chose to add a squirt of power to stay ahead even though it will mean turning in early and scrubbing off excess (by definition) speed. The guy trying to pass will be in no position to slingshot you and you are still ahead. This does not happen in DE. I think if you substitute the word "defensive" for "evasive" the concept has some validity. Of course the other reason is that I have too much experience with 901 and 915 gearboxes where an attempt to go from 4th to 2nd would result in getting no gear at all!

Best,

kwoksrus

Hi, I shift in the following manner:

brake, clutch in, shift to neutral, clutch out, blip throttle, clutch in, shift to correct gear, trottle away.

Am I doing it wrong because I blip when the gear is shifted to neutral, as most of you suggested? Sorry to be persistent in this, but just wanted to shift properly.

Thanks.

RedlineMan

I'll try this once more...

http://redlinerennsport.homestead.co...18HeelToe.html

You are doing it right for double declutching, but you do not have to do that. You are wasting time doing this, as you are matching the revs of the two shafts in the trans. This is not necessary because the synchros do that for you!!! You are not matching the revs of the wheels to the engine because the revs have dropped by the time you select your gear and declutch again.

Again, you WANT to match engine and wheel speed so you don't get the chirp. Double declutching matches shaft speeds inside the trans so you avoid the graunch. It does NOTHING to match wheel/engine speed UNLESS you blip a second time before declutching the second time.

Read the article, Stan. It's all there! Fire up your mind's eye and then start practicing.

kwoksrus

Thanks John, for clarifying the technique for me. Will give it a go.