SundayDriver

I was recalling a lesson from a coach...

Pretty much everyone focuses on one end of the car or the other and you likely don't realize it. Most focus on the front tires. When I hit a certain level, I was coached to start driving the rear tires, not the fronts. (Not sure how well this applies to a front heavy and/or FWD.)

That bit of advice did two things for me:
1) By focusing on the rears, if they were not at the limit of traction, then I needed more throttle. That really helped exit speed.
2) For me, focusing on the rear physically raised my eyes. I started looking even further down the track, which is a good thing.

Which end of the car do you drive? Think about it next time you are on the track.

RedlineMan

Doood.. you Rawk!

Now there is a high end topic if I ever heard one. You REALLY have to be driving at a fairly high level to be thinking of such things. I myself have been coming to grips - as it were - with such ideas lately.

I am the type that absolutely hates to junk a set of tires that don't have cords flapping about them. Call me cheap! I prefer to think of it as maximizing useage of resources. Of course this frugality tends to have a deleterious effect on grip levels. However, I have embraced this form of driving in earnest this summer, and I must say I am having a ball doing it. Oh... I do have a set of new RA1s sitting in the shop, but until I roach all the old stones around here, it's slide city!

My arsenal contains no tire with under 75 cycles on it. My MPSCs are the youngens of the group, and one just started to cord. My old RA1s (only 3 of the 4 left) are probably close to 200 cycles, and no I'm not kidding. You might wonder... I'm using an old A032R to fill out the set! The Piece de Resistance is my set of 008Rs. I have no clue how old they are (they were on a set of wheels I bought), but they haven't been available for at least 4 years. They are a blast! Vintage R tires are cool!

Anyway, the point of this is many-fold. I have had to up my game in both car control and setup in order to make these stones work, and each concoction has its own "personality." I NEVER liked a tail happy car before, and certainly am not looking for a Drift experience now, but driving on these rocks has led me to realize that a slightly loose car is indeed the fastest, and probably the SAFEST. Thus, understeer is my worst nightmare. I strive to get the rear end to rotate around so that I do not have to rely on front grip, which may not be there.

It has been quite interesting to feel my confidence level rising as I tinker with my setup to actually induce some oversteer. This is the manageable one. Understreer is much tougher. Oversteer usually requires little more than a deft throttle foot and a quick anticipatory hand on the wheel. Understeer requires all kinds of funky things like Severe Toss & Catch, Chop Thottle Oversteer, Manic TB, etc.

I've ridden with many people over the years that I knew in my heart were driving with their tires. There was no drift, but quite high side loads. I always feel a knot in the pit of my stomach because I wonder if they are ready should the car jump out suddenly. I know the potential is there. Do they?

I guess you'd have to say that I am an Evolving *** Man! No, I'm not thinking about a 911... but those Butt Draggers do have something working there!

RSRRacer

Good Thread.

I try to focus my concentration on any wheel touching the asphalt

....honestly.


I am not close to pro level, but most decent amateurs are aware of for and aft and lateral grip and make inputs to correct.

Bob Rouleau

Sunday - interesting postulate! I thought about it and I concluded that I concentrate on the end that needs it. At turn in I am focusing on the front end, then (it's a 911) the rear end, balancing the car with throttle until I can add power. At that point I am working the front end more. Does this make sense?

mistressmotorsports

Interesting question. After some thought, I don't believe I "drive" one end of the car more than the other, but let me describe my own habits and perhaps you can interpret them. I guess I'm kind of a weight transfer thinker. I try to pick up all the inputs (fingers, rear, etc.) and decide what I need the car to be doing. Then I make most of my adjustments with the accelerator pedal to put the weight where it's needed. Naturally, I also make steering corrections in concert with pedal adjustments, but usually when I get much closer to wrong than right. Small corrections are almost exclusively with the right foot. Maybe in a rwd car you call this driving the rear?

I also agree that a slightly loose car is way better than a tight one. There's not much less fun than trying to nurse an understeering car around a track, especially one with long fast corners like Willow where it's hard to use the throttle to overpower the rear and correct (front engine, rear drive production cars are where my experience is.) I'd much rather try dance a tail happy car around all day.

Mike

SundayDriver

at the one on the asphalt comment.

It is hard to describe, but I think most of the comments are describing primarily driving the front. That is where the attention is until the rear steps out and you have to react. The feeling I get if I am focused on driving the rear tires is that I don't have to react to them, I am more ahead of what they are doing. For me, it really causes use of more throttle (including a lot of throttle steering).

I don't profess to be able to analyze what anyone is doing from a post here. I would be really interested if some of you would try some laps focused on the rear of the car and report back. It makes a huge difference to me. Perhaps someone could come up with some other descriptions of the feeling.

trumperZ06

Mark, excellent post!

IMO... This whole game is about "balance"! A couple of year's ago, I spent three days with John Paul Jr. learning how to "Balance the car" in order to increase speed.

Before working with him, I had done a number of D E Events, read most of the books, and tried asking questions. I knew... "what I needed to do", but I didn't know... " HOW " !!!

John Paul taught me... technique. I gained at least a year's experience working with him. Currently, I'm working with an experienced Corvette racer, Speed Vision series, and adding tools to my driving kit!

Now, as I continue reading new books and re-reading the old, I still pick up "tips" that I over-looked before! This is a constantly learning process... which revolves around... seat time, seat time, seat time!

I concentrate on the rear tires after corner entry... unless I'm trail braking, when I transfer from braking to applying the throttle for track out! Sometimes there is a "maintantance throttle"stage in there, too!

I'm off to Roebling next week. I will try "focusing" on the rear tires for a sesson or two and will get back to Y'all !

Geo

I very clearly focus on the fronts. But this requires some explanation as well. I also concentrate very carefully to reduce engine bog. IOW I try to get the fronts to stick and get around the corner in such a way that the engine is not laboring to catch up.

Some background. Most of my experience comes from karting and racing a FWD sedan. It's been just over 15 years since I've driven a RWD car on a race track "in anger."

Also, while racing I believe the fronts are the key. But setting up the car I work hard on getting the best front grip that I can and do what I must to get the car to rotate well. This does not mean "drift" in the sense today's kids mean it. Just enough to not bind up the chassis and make it understeer.

When racing karts I would always get the front to stick and then work the rear. But in the race, if the front isn't sticking, all the throttle in the world won't get the kart to rotate. Sometimes (and I do mean sometimes) you can really toss it into a corner and get it to rotate, BUT, you cannot do that without front grip anyway. Without it, you just get a mess on your hands.

Karting also taught me to pay very close attention to engine bog. I raced a clutch kart with a 10k rpm (or thereabouts) stall speed. If you were stuck at the stall speed for any time, you were losing time big-time. Handling really played heavily into this, but driving technique did as well. I carried this over to my car racing. I can tell when the car does not accelerate out of a corner as it should and really work my technique in practice to get the car off the corner without it struggling to do so. Usually this results in the smoothest line into and around the corner.

Racing a FWD sedan is interesting. I remember an article in R&T about Tom Davey and his "bumble bee" Scirocco that took 2 SCCA GT3 championships and then another with the next generation. He was talking about the difference in driving a FWD car and when he inquired among other FWD pilots before a rain race they explained he just had to get used to the idea that the rears were just along for the ride. I've never forgotten that, however, it's not totally true either.

It may surprise some of you that you can set up a FWD car to oversteer and control the attitude with the throttle. When you get it right, it's really sweet. The technique I usually use is trail braking (amount depends upon the corner) to set up the rotation, and then you use the throttle to keep the car pointed corrently. You can dial in a LOT of oversteer and make it work with a FWD car. It's backwards from RWD and once you get used to that, it can be really fun. You start the car rotating and the more it rotates, the more you can hammer the throttle. But again, you MUST manage your front grip first or you just end up mowing the grass.

That's my story. I'm looking forward to getting out in the 944. I know it's going to take some getting used to, but I'm hoping it will be gentle.

Geo

Oh, very good point. I guess that helps me describe my driving quite well. I concentrate on front grip on corner entry and mostly on rear grip on corner exit. With FWD you still need to pay a bit more attention to the front than you might with RWD, I think this describes my approach well.

SundayDriver

Trumper - I don't think there is any substitute for good coaching. Clearly you feel the same. There are all sorts of things we have all heard but were (are) not ready for them. I reread stuff all the time and get an ah-ha even though I read it before. I am anxious to see if driving the rear does anything for you. With the feel stuff, what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another.

Geo,
Agree and that is why I did the disclaimer about FWD, etc. My experience is 90% sports racers and 10% 911's - pretty similar weight distribution.

SundayDriver

I think the thing that affects my vision in this, is when I think about the rear tires, I see them in my mind's eye. But I also "look" out the back of my head and have to tilt it down to the tires for that image. Weird sounding, but that is what raises my real vision.

If I don't do this, then I tend to see the Apex at turn in. If I do, then I am already looking at the exit when I move the steering wheel. Looking that far ahead, I know I have made the corner and am immediately thinking about faster exit speed and getting on the throttle.

924RACR

I'll admit to being a 90% front-driver, as it were... my most recent outing to Mid-O freshest in my head, with the car not well-balanced and a good bit of attention was focused on getting it to bite well in 1 (it was set up poorly, my fault, resulting in a fair bit of wedge to the right-handers). So my focus was on getting the fronts loaded well going in, so that I could make that apex - which the car really didn't seem to want to. It was definitely all about managing that front grip.

OTOH, it was working well through the Keyhole, so after a bit of initial focus on the front in the braking zone, staying away from lockup, focus was a bit more attention to the rear, feeding in the throttle as the car bit into the track after the drop and tracked into the apex. I would agree with the comments about being able to focus more on the rear grip levels when the car's well set up.

Of course, coming from my ESP background, a LARGE part of my primary processing/main control loop is focusing on the car's yaw rate, not lateral grip at either end - not interested in peak lateral G numbers, but on maintaining speed on the optimal line! I do feel that the yaw rate is, at least for me, a better control method, since it's easier for me to gauge than lateral g's or such - while gauging lateral g-levels in-car relies on your inner ear (not fast or accurate), you can readily gauge yaw rate based on visual observation of the motion of the horizon vs. your dash. Since vision is (usually) our primary sensor, it'll give a quicker response time. Further more, the inner ear only detects/measures acceleration, not rates - so the visual estimation is superior for detection of a spin for this reason as well. As mentioned previously, I'd be interested in hearing what the pro coaches have to say about all that!

OK, wandered off the subject enough!

forklift

I seem to skip the Apex in my sight also. I almost always clip the curbing, but never look at it. If I do, it is on a subconscious level. I really didn't notice that until I explained looking through a corner to a student. Funny how instructing makes you examine your own driving as you have to explain it.

At corner entry, I am more focused on the front unless trail braking, at mid-corner both equally, and as soon as I am on the power, the rear. This is interesting though and I will try rear focus the whole way. I wish my car was ready for this weekend. This place rocks.

Geo

You know, it's funny... This is another area where I go against the current common thinking.

When I drive I follow the car into the apex and track-out. As soon as I hit my mark, my eyes are immediately looking ahead (to track-out from the apex or down the straight from track-out). While most people use their peripheral vision to tend to their marks, I use my peripheral vision to see down the track. I know clearly where I developed this. Long before I actually started racing I read something by Innes Ireland or Stirling Moss (or probably someone from that era) who did so and commented "you can't hit what you can't see." That stuck with me and that technique has worked well for me, despite being opposite what is usually taught.

The thing that is different between me and the usual beginner who looks at the apex and track-out is that I absolute do not target fix. My vision is loose and I'll look to something that catches my eye in my peripheral vision, but unless something unexpected happens, I follow the car right up to my marks, seeing the tires hit them in my mind's eye.

ScottMellor

I'm currently reading some of Ross Bently's books. He mentions that in the rain, he just goes ahead and gets the car drifting at turn-in on a corner so that he does not have to worry about it biting him un-expectedly and he then just balances the slide the rest of the way through. At that point he realized he could do the same thing in the dry.
I'm only just starting to get comfortable with driving from the back end of the car. I will give that mental image a shot up at Buttonwillow next month. That might help me keep a little ahead of the car, as it can easily drive me if I'm not careful.