I was wrong about importance of g data in driver development
#61
Brian:
I agree with you. You expect top notch drivers to be on the best line at the limit. G-sum and segment times will tell you if they are or not. Even F1 drivers are not all the time and work on different areas to improve. You are absolutely correct; a high g-sum does not guarantee you are quick (as I have said before). You need to combine segment times AND g-sum.
While I agree that it is immensely valuable to have a pro drop in your car and lay down pro data, (and as I have said before, I plan to do this), but I disagree that the limits will differ greatly. The limit of the vehicle is very dominated by the design and setup of the vehicle, not driver influence (tire traction is the fundamental limit). What I expect to see is him slam the car at 9.5+/10ths everywhere around the track and to show blistering lap (and segment) times. The smoothness (derivative of g-sum) should also be interesting to see. I hope to have this done in October at Putnam and of course I will share the data with the class.
Here is how I anticipate the conversation when I ask a pro to hop in. I will say I want to see his data so I can compare. If he is willing, I will ask if I can ride along. I will say drive it until your comfortable, then put down qualifying lap times. Push it as hard as you like. Dirt doesn’t bother me, bent sheet metal will. Have at it.
I agree with you. You expect top notch drivers to be on the best line at the limit. G-sum and segment times will tell you if they are or not. Even F1 drivers are not all the time and work on different areas to improve. You are absolutely correct; a high g-sum does not guarantee you are quick (as I have said before). You need to combine segment times AND g-sum.
While I agree that it is immensely valuable to have a pro drop in your car and lay down pro data, (and as I have said before, I plan to do this), but I disagree that the limits will differ greatly. The limit of the vehicle is very dominated by the design and setup of the vehicle, not driver influence (tire traction is the fundamental limit). What I expect to see is him slam the car at 9.5+/10ths everywhere around the track and to show blistering lap (and segment) times. The smoothness (derivative of g-sum) should also be interesting to see. I hope to have this done in October at Putnam and of course I will share the data with the class.
Here is how I anticipate the conversation when I ask a pro to hop in. I will say I want to see his data so I can compare. If he is willing, I will ask if I can ride along. I will say drive it until your comfortable, then put down qualifying lap times. Push it as hard as you like. Dirt doesn’t bother me, bent sheet metal will. Have at it.
#62
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by ColorChange
While I agree that it is immensely valuable to have a pro drop in your car and lay down pro data, (and as I have said before, I plan to do this), but I disagree that the limits will differ greatly. The limit of the vehicle is very dominated by the design and setup of the vehicle, not driver influence (tire traction is the fundamental limit).
Here's a real world example. I run in the 2:17 range at Watkins Glen, which basically makes me one of the fastest guys in NNJR's black run group. Keith Peare, one of these faster club racers in the country, runs 2:01. Now, some of this is car (maybe 7-8 seconds worth) and some of this is driver ability (Keith is not human). I also have ridden with Keith at WG, and it was like being in a parallel universe...he was so much faster in the turns my brain couldn't even comprehend it. Point is, the limits of my car are higher than my brain can currently handle. So, unless you've had a top notch driver drive your car, or your name is Keith Peare/Ron/Kyle/etc., you really have no idea where the limit is.
#63
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Pesky 914
I have to disagree with this. The limits of our various Porsche are very, very high, so I highly doubt that any of us really know where the limit is.
Here's a real world example. I run in the 2:17 range at Watkins Glen, which basically makes me one of the fastest guys in NNJR's black run group. Keith Peare, one of these faster club racers in the country, runs 2:01. Now, some of this is car (maybe 7-8 seconds worth) and some of this is driver ability (Keith is not human). I also have ridden with Keith at WG, and it was like being in a parallel universe...he was so much faster in the turns my brain couldn't even comprehend it. Point is, the limits of my car are higher than my brain can currently handle. So, unless you've had a top notch driver drive your car, or your name is Keith Peare/Ron/Kyle/etc., you really have no idea where the limit is.
Here's a real world example. I run in the 2:17 range at Watkins Glen, which basically makes me one of the fastest guys in NNJR's black run group. Keith Peare, one of these faster club racers in the country, runs 2:01. Now, some of this is car (maybe 7-8 seconds worth) and some of this is driver ability (Keith is not human). I also have ridden with Keith at WG, and it was like being in a parallel universe...he was so much faster in the turns my brain couldn't even comprehend it. Point is, the limits of my car are higher than my brain can currently handle. So, unless you've had a top notch driver drive your car, or your name is Keith Peare/Ron/Kyle/etc., you really have no idea where the limit is.
#64
Race Director
Originally Posted by ColorChange
The limit of the vehicle is very dominated by the design and setup of the vehicle, not driver influence
..
.. ..
Tell that to every teammate Michael Schumacher has had in F1. Tell that to the F1 community. Ferarri has not always had the best car. MS was running away from the field driving a turd before they built the team they have today.
#65
Guys, this seems to be another big misconception here. I am going to start another thread on car limits and drivers extracting the limit.
Why I am willing to do this (and suffer the personal attacks and anecdotal arguments that will assuredly follow), I'm not sure, but I will do it anyway.
Why I am willing to do this (and suffer the personal attacks and anecdotal arguments that will assuredly follow), I'm not sure, but I will do it anyway.
#66
Race Director
Originally Posted by ColorChange
Guys, this seems to be another big misconception here.
Originally Posted by ColorChange
I am going to start another thread on car limits and drivers extracting the limit.
Why I am willing to do this
Why I am willing to do this
Originally Posted by ColorChange
I'm not sure, but I will do it anyway.
#67
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
Basic Site Sponsor
Originally Posted by ColorChange
Brian:
The limit of the vehicle is very dominated by the design and setup of the vehicle, not driver influence (tire traction is the fundamental limit).
The limit of the vehicle is very dominated by the design and setup of the vehicle, not driver influence (tire traction is the fundamental limit).
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Larry Herman
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Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car
CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.
#68
Guys, I'm pretty sure color is right on this latest issue. A car, set up a certain way, it going to have some mechanical limit. That doesn't mean everyone can reach that limit 99.999999% of the time like MS does though. He is a better driver, and therefore the "car" performs better, but its due to his limits, not the car's. If a car doesn't have limits, thats like saying MS can push any car as hard as an F1 just because.
#69
Sure, but then there is also the statement like "the pro's limits won't vary greatly from CC's". Unless CC is the next coming of Senna, I don't see how that could be true. I think CC thinks he is at the car's limits and there's no way a pro will be much higher. The only difference that he sees is the pro will be at that limit more often.
#70
Brian, that is a good point. The reason I think a pro's limits will not be much higher than mine at Gingerman is because my car is set up fairly neutral and it is such a flat track that there are few tricky corners where his superior car balance can be demonstrated to a significant gain. Will a pro take a superior line and keep the car near the g-sum limit consistently and blow my lousy times away? Of course. This is not in dispute. I am only talking about the g-sum limit I have identified as 1.10, and that he will not be able to increase a lot IMO. I also now the absolute limits reasonably well from skid pad testing and since most of the corners are flat at Gingerman, the skid pad numbers transfer well.
Now, am I really sure of this? No. I haven’t had the opportunity to have a pro hop in yet but I hope I will at Putnam in a couple of weeks. Secondly, before the recent work (further lowering, adjusting shocks, sways, new tires, etc.) my car could pull a max g-sum of about 1.10 (it’s a little noisy signal). A pro driver might take that up another 0.1 but I think it will be very difficult to get it much higher than that but I don’t have direct data to confirm or deny my opinion.
Now, am I really sure of this? No. I haven’t had the opportunity to have a pro hop in yet but I hope I will at Putnam in a couple of weeks. Secondly, before the recent work (further lowering, adjusting shocks, sways, new tires, etc.) my car could pull a max g-sum of about 1.10 (it’s a little noisy signal). A pro driver might take that up another 0.1 but I think it will be very difficult to get it much higher than that but I don’t have direct data to confirm or deny my opinion.
#74
Race Director
Originally Posted by ColorChange
Brian, that is a good point. The reason I think a pro's limits will not be much higher than mine at Gingerman is because my car is set up fairly neutral and it is such a flat track that there are few tricky corners where his superior car balance can be demonstrated to a significant gain.
Color Change: I think a big assumption you have is that your 'driving at the limits' will not change - that your 10/10ths TODAY will be the same 10/10ths Tomorrow. That is simply not the case - the more seat time you have, the more you improve, and the further you can push your limits.
Originally Posted by Man of colors
Will a pro take a superior line and keep the car near the g-sum limit consistently and blow my lousy times away? Of course. This is not in dispute. I am only talking about the g-sum limit I have identified as 1.10, and that he will not be able to increase a lot IMO. I also now the absolute limits reasonably well from skid pad testing and since most of the corners are flat at Gingerman, the skid pad numbers transfer well.
Originally Posted by CC
Now, am I really sure of this? No. I haven’t had the opportunity to have a pro hop in yet but I hope I will at Putnam in a couple of weeks. Secondly, before the recent work (further lowering, adjusting shocks, sways, new tires, etc.) my car could pull a max g-sum of about 1.10 (it’s a little noisy signal). A pro driver might take that up another 0.1 but I think it will be very difficult to get it much higher than that but I don’t have direct data to confirm or deny my opinion.
-Z-man.