gerry100

A 6 DE guy skimming this thread-

- is the Porsche in your Icon your DE ride? Appears to be 350HP plus, PSM controlled,AWD
- if you are running down, 200hp,RWD 15 year old cars in a session using all that technology, I'm not sure that demonstrates anything except advancements in the car.
- My limited experience suggest syou don't even have to know the line to go fast in some of these cars.

I run my '86 3.2 in groups with GT2s, 996TTs , C4s and traffic is an issue, but we all have a good time and learn a lot. ( of course, there is a lot of room at the Glen).

Noel

Jeeva,

One other point about run groups with the Allegheny region at least. When they assign drivers to different groups, part of the determining factor is also the relative experience level within the group. For example, I know we had a good number of first timers at the last event, so you probably had a leg up on most of your group, but were placed there due to you never having been to Beaverun before. However, some schools attract a lot of experienced drivers. Next time at Beaverun, you will likely be in C for two reasons. First is that you have been there before and second is that it really is an easy track to learn (Non-Technical track). So that is one factor. Another is that your instructor fills out an evaluation on you, just as you do on him. One of the questions is the readiness to progress to the next run group. Next time, just ask the instructor what he/she thinks about your driving skills relastive to others within your group.

Z-man

M3? You should try to drive a 944 at PCA events! Talk about ridicule!

Actually, I had the opportunity to drive a 328is for a session at The Glen this August. (My 944 was sidelined for most of the event) Running in Black run group, I really didn't see any issues with the folks I was running with.

Most of NNJR PCA's DE's are filled up with Porsches - Porsche cars hve priority, and most of our events are sold out events. Some of the further away events (Mid-Ohio, Mosport, VIR, for example), aren't always sold out, and at those events, you will typically see other makes out there. From what I've seen, these non-P-car drivers may get a little heat from time to time, but I don't think it's that bad.

I think you misunderstood some of my post. I agree that volunteering and getting involved with a particular club or region shouldn't bump you up in the run groups - but it will get you noticed. Grumbling and complaining will also get you noticed, but in the wrong way! I person willing to help and friendly to folks probably is a better driver on the track as well: more conteous, less selfish, and easier to get along with...

I suppose I am part of that mysterious 'inner circle' of my region. I'm part of the Board of Govenors, and I'm one of the track tech chairs. However, I can't stand politics, and as such, I don't gloat my position at all. I take pride in the fact that I am comfortable in all circles within the club. (Matter of fact, I had a great time with an M3 club racer at Mid Ohio during a thunderstom! Real genuine guy - hope his racing schedule went well this summer!)

-Z.

Sanjeevan

I AGREE WITH ALL YOUR OBSERVATIONS, BUT I do not agree with your conclusion. Are you trying to say, just because I have a more powerful car that I AM SCREWING UP EVERYTHING and still be fast (I know that it is possible, but how do you know that's what I am doing), Can I be in a fast car, and still be good. How about that possibility.
NOEL, I agree with you too, BUT
I"LL REPEAT THESE THREE MAJOR POINTS AGAIN
1) I don't think I am ready to move to group C permanently yet, only when I go back to beavrun.
2)I Want to stick to street tires.
3)The ONLY reason I started this thread is for some help in choosing between a)Going to a new track (M-O) and be in groupD, or b)Try to go back to BeavRun and try to advance to Gr.C. I am not trying to convince ANYONE that I am being kept behind, and I am too good for Gr.D
Thanks

RJay

Hey Redline! I'm at Lime Rock with NCR the day before. If you roll into LRP on Thursday for dropoff as we're finishing up, be sure to look me up to say Hi! I'd like to buy you a beer for the kind words, not to mention the advice! I'm the long-haired funny looking dude with the white '73 RS clone as in my avatar.

=Ron=

nman413

John, stay off my rear bumper

Z-man

Now forgive me, but I haven't run in Green for a while. But I've encountered many a slow car during my track time. (Even slower than me, if you can imagine that! ) A couple of thoughts on your Vette vs. Accord scene:

1. If I were the Vette driver, I'd make sure I'm not more than an inch off my apex! If I'm going at such a slow pace, I have no excuse if I don't drive the perfect line! Getting behind a slower car offers me the opportunity to clean up my line, re-group my thoughts, and sharpen my focus. It also allows me to work on my patience while 'stuck' behind him.

2. If said Accord is holding up the Vette for more than one corner, I put the blame on three areas: the driver, the instructor, and the corner workers! As a newbie, the Accord driver may not be used to using his mirrors. While that's not good, his instructor should be helping in that department. If both student and instructor (or if just the solo driver) isn't aware of the cars behind him, then it's up to the corner workers to display the BLUE flag. If that flag appears to be invisible to the driver, then a less transparent BLACK flag is used. In any case, the Vette driver shouldn't be held up for longer than a corner.

3. An impatient Vette driver can make the Accord driver actually drive slower through the corners - if the Vette is swerving or really being aggressive with the Accord, he's going to panic, stress, and subconsciously, he will drive slower. Remember, in DE, there's no passing in the corners - so why fluster the driver? The Vette should follow the Accord patiently through the corner and on the next straight, the Accord will give a pass. (Ideal world, of course!) On the straight, the Vette has far more pulling power than the Accord, so there's not need to be up his bumper to get by! (Side note: 'Momentum' or slow cars are better off leaving a little more room anyway - so they can maximize their exit speed to get around said 'slower' car more efficiently!)

4. If the Accord is not allowing the Vette to get around him, the Vette owner has the opportunity to roll through the pits - on most tracks, once this is done, the Vette will not see the Acccord the whole rest of the session.

Just some ideas,
-Z-man.

Sanjeevan

Redlineman(John) my last answer for your video was ambiguous and sounded a little harsh, not my intentions. I am learning a lot from you, your first post here about instructor-student relationship was the best read of the thread, thanks a lot for all your insights.

Brian P

I found that I got plenty of work on my impatience. Anyhow... I used to believe basically the same thing that a driver has an excellent opportunity to really focus on the line when 'stuck' behind a slower driver. Now, I'm not so sure. Basically things change with speed. It's hard to tell if your line is dead-on when you have to drive to track out rather than having the car drift out there. I think there is a good case for trying things off-line when stuck behind a slower driver. Now, this might not be the best thing for a newbie to do, but for everybody else, it can be a great way to continue the education while still going at a slower speed.

"Shouldn't be" is the key phrase. I've found having an instructor in the car makes very little difference on whether the passing signal comes or not. Sometimes the instructor is also focused on helping the student drive better and safer rather than on what's behind them. Other times the mirrors might not be set up well for the instructor to see traffic.

Anyhow, if I had to generalize, I've found that green and yellow drivers are actually pretty good about the passing signals. Sure, they might be turtle slow in the corners, but they generally give signals as soon as they can. If I had to pick the group that was the worst with passing signals, it'd be the white run group.

I hate this rule. I usually hear it in the context of a train, as in, "if you are in a train, roll through the pits." The problem with this is that the lead car (the guy causing the train) gets to enjoy all of their track time while all the cars in the train have to roll through the pits to get away from him. The Potomac region has a much more sensible rule. If you are the train former, you should roll through the pits to allow the train to break up.

Z-man

I think you mean Redlineman, aka John. I certainly don't mind benig mistaken for John and his views, but HE may have a problem for being mistaken for "Z-man!"

Just givin' credit where it is due!
-Z.

Z-man

Counterpoint: driving through a corner at a slower speed will help a driver pick up more spots on the track to use as markers. That blur of white you see at speed may actually be a white line that can work as a perfect marker for the apex. Now, the white blur, and driving slower through a corner becomes very useful.
Granted: driving out to the track out vs. drifting out there. But driving out there at a slower speed will burn an image of that event in your subconscious, allowing you to recall that 'event' and apply it to when you're at speed.
You're implying that the head of the train (or a slower driver) is doing something wrong. If indeed a slow car is NOT giving passes, then I agree - the 'leader of the pack' should come in, as I suggest by giving him a black flag. But if he's only holding up folks in the corners and giving passing signals left and right, he also has the right to enjoy the track time.

Think of driving behind a slower car as the 'Tai-Chi' of DE: you need to do everything slowly and deliberately. When things speed up, your actions will more likely occur on a subconcious level. (Now I'm starting to sound like Redlineman! )

What a tangled web we weave in this DE world...
-Z.

Noel

I agree that you will belong in C at Beaverun, but don't be surprised with D at Mid-Ohio if you have never been there before.
I think the track choice depends on your personality and how far you want to drive to the track. Mid-Ohio is close to Dayton and it is a much better track. I personally like going to new tracks. Keep in mind that a lot of what you are learning at this stage are track awareness and basic car control skills. These can be learned at ANY track. So the bottom line is it doesn't matter what track IMO, just keep going to the track!!!

Brian P

Good point. Generally, I've seen the problem be that the pack leader gives one passing signal on each straightaway and then races that person to the corner. This ensures that only one person can get by. I would think that if you are leading the train, you would lift and let a lot of cars go by.

However, at some short tracks that have limited passing zones, that tactic might not work so well. Lifting in the few passing zones just ensures that more cars catch up and you have a constant train behind you. So yeah, it is quite track dependent on what the is the right thing to do.

Maybe Potomac's rule has something to do with their home track being Summit Point. It has a nice long straight and several passing zones that should make it difficult to form trains.

Sanjeevan

Amen, no force in this world can hold me back from the tracks now. Good to here that mid-ohio is a fun track, and i had ordered that video too. I did putnam and beaverun first as they were less technical and I wanted to take it easy in the beginning. I am hoping to do two more event at M-O this season.
Oh, Yeah another thing at M-O I don't want to be in C, I KNOW I wouldn't be able to handle it, as I had mentioned before if they assign me C, I myself will request for D or else drive back home, I'll be a danger to myself and others at M-O in C, However, BeaveRun is a whole different story Man

frayed

Not sure who you are talking to, but almost all of my track experience is in a 240 hp, non-psm, non-traction controlled, RWD E36 M3. The only advanced technology it has is ABS. But, I have tracked down all sorts of high hp hardware, from Z06s to 996TTs to vipers. I don't place much importance/relevance to that phenomenon though, given the scope of variables associated with open lapping in a non-racing venue.

My C4S is brand new to me, and I only have 3 run sessions in it so far.