DE Passing Etiquette & New "Advanced" Drivers
 

:soapbox: ;)

Howdy All;

There is a new phenomenon taking hold of PCA DE events in the last couple years that threatens to upset the fine balance we enjoyed for years, at least in the instructor run groups.

The toughest job in PCA - besides being editor - is track registrar. Lots of new students to accommodate. They are the life blood of DE. Lots of low-to-mid-intermediates needing to move up as a result. This forces registrars to push the upper intermediates out of White/Blue and into Black/Red.

Used to be that Red/Black were designated for instructors only. Red and Black used to be relatively interchangeable, and your designation was largely a matter of scheduling. Now, these upper intermediates are coming in, and unfortunately often times are not prepared for the change. To some degree, Black (and even Red) has now been fouled by a bunch of guys coming in and not getting with the advanced program.

For those finding themselves in this position for the first time, I'd like to ask that you enter these groups with some of the unspoiled eagerness of a novice student. Drive with a sense of extreme deference to your fellow drivers. Act like you are the new guy, ready to make new friends. Try your best to stay out of the way, be polite, and not make waves. Watch your seniors and pick up on the skills that make them fast. Try your best to pay your dues and gain your "props" by blending in with your new community, not sticking out like a road block!

Whether you realize it or not, you have moved into a different world. The density of driving talent - particularly at an event like the 48 Hours at WGI, which prompted this post - is quite a bit higher than you are used to, even if you run Black in regional events. No longer can you take the "slower" cars for granted and simply ignore them. It is in truth YOU that is likely to be the slower car in the big pond.

In the upper groups, the type of car is much less a factor in how fast it gets around the track. You cannot assume that a "slow car" will not be a factor in your driving. Further, when you see said "slow car" in your mirrors, you should pause to think about what got it there before you simply floor the gas and take off. Remember when they told you this as a newbie? Well, it applies once again!

When one driver chooses to ignore or at best not properly acknowledge that car pasted to his bumper in a corner, he causes multiple problems. First, the guy directly behind stands to get pissed if the problem persists for too many corners. This forces this driver into a dilemma. Should he/she A) stubbornly push the issue and ignore all the cars stacking up behind, or B) be a true patriot and start letting the other cars through, giving up their own best interests for a productive session to see that the community at large is better served?

There is absolutely no excuse for trains to develop in the instructor run groups. Even the slowest cars do not create them given an experienced high-traffic driver at the wheel. Trains develop when people drive without thinking kindly about the other driver. If that “slow car” could punt you off in every corner, it should dawn on you that perhaps it is not that slow. You most often will find that if you do let it pass, it will disappear into the distance. You might also be surprised to find that if you catch up again on a long straight, they will let you re-pass without hesitation. At such a point, if you had previously held them up, you should feel embarrassed! Don't dare stick them behind you again for 3-4-5 more turns!!

You may have been top dog in your old group. Well, no more. You are now back to being the novice in a group that is on a higher plain. Things happen faster, closer, deeper, denser. Drive like the new guy, and make friends by giving way and being courteous. At the end of the day, it is far better to not have been noticed or be found to be a worthy new addition than a drag-assed point and squirt pain in the butt!

Well said John.

As a fellow low horse power driver, being stuck behind a car for even 1 turn can really slow you down. If someone has made it to the higher run groups, they need to be comfortable enough to let people pass and learn something.

Matt

John

You could have emphasized one point even more emphatically:

If you let the faster driver in the slower car through, you may learn something following him or her (as long as you can).

It is still, after all, driver education.

I was running in the advanced groups this weekend at the 48 hours and somewhat agree with what has been said. I did find that the groups were in general slower than I've experienced in the past with other driving events. However, I did find that, for the most part, people did give you the passing signal within 1 corner of showing up in in their mirrors. The trains I experienced were generally when I came across the two 356s that were out there, and I was lapping most of the field during a session.

One thing that did concern me was people not know which side to point me by on. For instance, in the NASCAR turn an early pass is taken on the right and a late pass is taken on the left due to the right/left corners. I had an instance where I expected an early pass on the right and was getting ready to pass when I realized he wanted me to pass on the left and I had already begun to close the gap.

I do certainly agree that there should be no "track awareness" or "track management" issues in Black or Red run groups. I expect that in white which is why I believe white is the most apt group to have incidences due to the wide variety of skill level.

From the CVR driver's log book - "Drivers in the black run group are expected to be expert in all the driving skills taught by NCR and CVR. The experienced Black driver should be indistinguishable from the average driver in Red. Some Black drivers are in fact Instructors..."

wouldn't it be nice if course workers actually used the blue flags once in a while??

:)

Was not a problem with the corner workers for the 48hrs. I was out with my instructor with the black for a few sessions and the blue flag was thrown often. Whether or not the driver getting flagged paid attention, now that is something different.

Another point that needs stessing is that the car behind you should not have to be on your bumper to get a point by. The guy in front thinks, "this guy can't catch me so I am not slowing him down". Just being in your mirror should be enough.

Agreed. In white there was the same problem with trains and in particular one driver that got 3 blue flags and still did not let people by... I was told by someone I passed to get to him that they let me by to let another go at him, and they saw him get 3 flags on him when they were behind him too.

I thought the corner workers were suppost to black flag that kind of behavior.

I've run in the black group at WG for the last few years, and I'm not an instructor, so take my comments with a grain of salt. Last year, I was behind a slower car going into the laces, with a TT catching me - slowly - from behind. I got a passing signal at the start of the sole, and pulled out to pass, when lo and behold, there was the TT right beside me. We went three abreast until I slowed and let the TT pass. Then I stayed within a hundred yards of him for the rest of the session. I complained when I got back in, feeling that passing without a signal was inappropriate in DE, and the first question was: "ARE YOU AN INSTRUCTOR?" The assumption in the question presumably was that if the passer was an instructor and the passee was not, the instructor is always right. Question: can instructors pass a non-instructor at will in a DE without a signal? I can tell when a car is faster, and I always let that car by in order to learn from them. But there are also a few instructors with more attitude than either driving skill or speed. If one of them wishes to pass at will, there's a place for that: it's called racing.

Passing without a signal in DE is NOT GOOD, instructor or not!

I am an instructor for PCA and in every event I've run, passing is NOT ALLOWED without a point by in DE no matter who it is. That "instructor" you encountered should be removed from duty and given an education.

I thought so as well, but then he might not have got that flag either.

Smokey, I agree with your comments, passing in a DE without a point is not acceptable regardless of instructor or not and it should be reserved for racing, period.

Hey Fellows;

It occurred to me that my diatribe might sound like a Slow Car's Lament, and that was not my intent at all. Of course, if I am being help up variously by numerous cars in a session, it is an obvious barometer that something is amiss. However, my comments hold for EVERYONE and are meant to keep the advanced community working as it used to, and should. Because of the speeds involved, it should, and must!

Apparently some drivers are under the mistaken impression that they do not need to let a "slower car" by because they themselves will pull away in the straight. This is quite a misconception, and is a notion that the slower DRIVER needs to be disabused of. This to me is a driver that does not belong in an advanced group, or at the least needs to be called to Pit One for some tutelage. Part of being moved into this realm is driving with a VERY strong sense of community, of "giving it up" and paying your dues as you learn the Ways of the Fleischunds. Look for a "New Advanced Drivers Classroom" next year. I might even be the "Professor."

Here's a perfect example of driving with deference and community spirit. I had gotten a pass from a guy going into 6. He had held me up quite a bit in the Inner Loop, but it's not a passing zone and so I waited my turn. I started to zoom into the distance down the Laces entering 7, but got held up by another slower DRIVER. My Raging 147 HP is not conducive to getting by anyone going up that blasted hill, and I was dead. The guy that let me pass previously caught right back up.

I could have left him back there, because I knew I would catch him again in 8 and be held up yet again. Being a nice guy, I let him pass anyway. It so happened on this occasion that I got cycled back by faster traffic and never quite caught back up to him until well into the next lap. Point being, I would have fouled up HIS run to save my own. That's not fair and it's not right. It's not community minded!

Regarding the flagging - it was the worst ever at the 48 Hours. For those not aware, we traditionally have had the RCA (Race Communication Assoc.) doing our flagging. The Best of the Best. The Pros. It has always been one of the unseen joys of driving this event, working with people that knew exactly what was going on at every moment, and were in essence living what we were living, working with equal intensity, only from a different vantage. Having worked PCA Control, I know first hand the effort and ability these people brought to the game. They are a treasure!

Apparently RCA is having trouble getting and keeping personnel, and the copious number of track days at the Glen these days is stretching them thin. We got a haphazard array of fill ins, week-day'ers, tire testers, and so on. There were numerous situations resulting from flagging issues. Bummer to say the least. We're spoiled!!

In any event, this was not meant to be a personal gripe. Yes, me and my previously mentioned HP number were held up numerous times. Yes, it was mildly frustrating. Yes, I dealt with it and simply put it up to growing pains and one more ingredient in the community soup. Big boys deal with it, you know?

It was meant to help restore the smooth flow that we used to have in the advanced groups. If one guy - veteran or newbie - now gives one more passing signal in deference to another driver, it will have worked.

Hey Geoffrey;

How classic to tailor your Avatar after the discussion. I don't know of anybody else that has a picture of their car being pointed by...cool!

Actually, my avitar has been this way since I began Rennlist years ago. I didn't even think about it until you mentioned it.

Great thread, John. And very timely. I will be doing my first DE in Black this coming weekend at Pocono. (But don't tell anyone! I'm hoping to quietly blend in, like you say! :eek: Opps! I think I just contradicted myself, no?!)

While I don't have 150hp, my meager 208hp is no monster either. And with my stock suspension, if you ride blindfolded with me, you're most likely to confuse my car with a sailboat riding the high seas! :eek: Regardless, all throughout my DE experience, I have found that being aware of my surroundings is extremely important.

A few years ago at Lime Rock, when I first got promoted to the White Run group, there was a combined White/Black/Red session that I was totally intimidated! It was my baptism by fire, to say the least! I did everything wrong, and unfortunately, I frustrated a lot of drivers. In that single session, I learned the concept of closing speeds. However, as my skills have progressed, I have learned that there the veteran drivers have the ability to stretch time and space, and when given a pass, no matter how far into the braking zone it is, they will find a way to get through without drama! And they can drive the snot out of their cars! I have a huge amount of respect for you expert drivers.

HOWEVER, there is another side to this debate, and that is this: when you veteran advanced drivers see one of us 'newbie Blackies' out there for the first time, there is no need to hassle us! Sure, we may not be used to the faster closing speeds, the ability to pass in short spaces, and the different cars out there, but that gives you no right to harass needlessly! If you catch up to me in a 'No passing area', there is no need to drive needlessly agressively. I can assure you, you will get a point by at the next opportunity. But don't harass me in the corners - I know you are there, so relax for the next 5-10 seconds.

Though many of you advanced drivers won't admit this, there are those out there who look upon us 'new to black' drivers as 'fresh meat' to initiate. You gotta show us we're running with the big boys, and we if we can't stand the fire, we should get out of our nomex suits. This attitude is totally opposite of what DE's are all about. There is no place in DE OR club racing for that type of behavior. And that attitude does prevail in DE's.
IMHO, if you're in an upper run group, and you haven't given a point-by before a blue flag is thrown at you, then you're too late!

The bottom line for me is this: whether you're the top dog in a run group, or you're a newbie that's slow as molasses, it's all about mutual respect for each other.

-Zoltan.

Z - Don't forget that one key use of the Blue flag is to alert the slower car that a faster car is approaching *before* it appears in the mirror. I'm sure that many of us (esp with low hp cars) have stories of seeing a blue flag, but nothing in the mirror - only to have a much faster car rocket into the mirror...

There's a few cases of when this happens, and I think it's difficult to assign blame.

Example 1) The car in front is driving far too slow for the run group. For example, let's imagine a green run group driver accidently gets out there with the people in red. Someone in red might come through the esses at 120MPH+ and not be expecting our newbie to be driving at 70 MPH. Being on the person's back bumper might be the best that the instructor can do. (The alternative would be contact :eek: )

Admittedly, this is an extreme example, but I've had turns where I've left a good 6-8 car lengths on a person planning to get a run on them so that I will have a greater corner exit speed, and it would enable an easier pass on the following straight. However, sometimes that person is going so slow that I catch them at the apex. And, it's difficult to judge how much room to leave between us because they seem so fast on the straights. :rolleyes:

Example 2) The person in front doesn't look in the mirrors. How many passing zones do you follow someone at a courteous distance before you decide to tighten it up a bit?

Example 3) Sometimes we really don't recognize who the "newbies" are. If you could put a big "STUDENT DRIVER" sticker on your car, that would help. :p

Z - I think a little dancing is OK to let the other person know you are there and have a much more capable car/driver. I had the same situation, ran with instructors my second track event in a 2.8 Audi A4. Had a Porsche on slicks dancing behind me through a few turns. Put two wheels off trying to get through the twisties. I knew to give the pass right at the beginning of the straight. It was clear that he was much, much faster. I thought it was great fun. I would not put two wheels off now, I'll ignore faster cars until I get near a passing zone and then give a quick point by.

You can only dance if you are much faster and it's a way to communicate that. The front driver can always wave to acknowledge that you are there and that they will be giving a point by. Then you should back off some.

Mark

Z -

Points well taken. There are indeed instances of faster drivers acting in fashions not conducive to group harmony. In years past we had professional flaggers that were well aware of this behavior and suggested these persons be called to Pit One for a little discussion of courtesy. I was at times the one on the other end of the radio that agreed on PCA's behalf to have them black flagged for a correction in their driving demeanor.

I must admit that I relish the opportunity to try and improve the experience for my brothers and sisters of good intent! :)

As a matter of defense for certain persons, it is not always a case of as blatant a disregard for etiquette as the slower driver may perceive it to be. Often feelings of perceived hostility arise from that driver being surprised, or distracted. It is also often the case that the slower driver is not as used to having cars as close to him as the faster, more experienced driver is. In fact, my student - out for a ride with me in red - theorized that perhaps the biggest point of difference was the density and closer proximity of the other cars relative to less experienced groups. A very astute observation.

I (and anyone of proper "familial intent") have no problem with someone who for various reasons is "slower" than I. In many cases we indeed do not know who the newer advanced drivers are... until we encounter them. The classic sign is not that they are moving at a slower pace, but in how they handle passing... or not handle it, as the case may be.

The speed of the car is not as telling as the speed of acquiescence. To be offered examination of someone's tailpipe through a turn only to be blown away in a puff of acceleration is a sure sign of someone who needs a clue as to advanced etiquette. To have this happen for more than one consecutive corner, or by the same car in different sessions, is truly egregious.

Here's a marker of competence: Anyone who can't give a passing signal AT THE APEX of most any turn does not belong in the advanced group. If I see a Cup car or other rocket steaming up on me entering a turn, I will give them a quick point BEFORE the turn in, and then AT the apex again. This lets them know I see them, I am ready for them, and do not want to hold them up any more than humanly possible. I get many thumbs up for that type of courtesy and have yet to ever have anyone express any displeasure regarding my pace.

Mark - excellent idea of giving a wave of recognition. That's all they really want anyway, eh?

As far as "dancing" goes, it is only "necessary" when you have someone who appears not to know his position in the group. When you are running in advanced, you can usually expect to be safe following a little closer than in the lower groups, but you SHOULD NOT need to get someone's attention by alternately filling every mirror. I do not agree with it, and yet found myself doing it a couple of times this weekend when held up for multiple corners. It is rude and I'd rather not, but I guess sometimes it's necessary.

That is a measure of what I see as the relatively extreme nature of the "problem" here. If EVERYONE works to minimize it, EVERYONE'S run will be improved.

THAT is my intent here. :thumbup:

Interestingly enough, when you get into racing, this practice of being "aware" of the overall track environment is critical. My last endurance race had me in my "D" class car grouped with all the Cup cars. Kind of like the Le Mans experience with all the prototypes passing at will the GT class cars. Being aware of what is behind you and still driving your line is a critical skill.

DE's are a great place to practice that in a very controlled situation. Now, the faster cars have to exercise a bit of patience and control and the slower cars need to have the awareness of what's behind them and PLEASE, point at the earliest possible opportunity coming off a turn. We like that ability to power out of the corners!

A while back, I put together a set of rules that I thought would be great for handling traffic. This is what I learned from taking rides from instructors and seeing what they did. If I were to pick my one pet peeve of non-advanced drivers (white run group and below), it's that they follow none of the suggestions on how to handle trains.

1) Pay attention during the drivers meeting. A few useful items are mentioned there: track conditions, passing zones, etc. You don't want to ignore those things.

2) Learn the passing zones. The easiest way to do that is to pay attention during the drivers meeting (sounds like an echo, doesn't it?) Even if you are the fastest car on the track, you still want to know where the zones are, because at most tracks, you will get black flagged if you pass somewhere that isn't a passing zone.

3) Use all of the passing zones. I've often hear people say, "I don't like people to pass me on this zone because it's too short. They might not make it in time". First, that's wrong. The overtaking car has complete responsibility for ensuring the pass is done safely. In other words, if the car can't pass in time, that driver should wave off the pass and wait for the next passing zone. Second, maybe the car has a monster turbo and could have gotten by with ease. Without the pass signal, he'll never have the chance. Third, if the two cars are side by side going towards the turn, the car that gave the pass signal can simply slow down.

4) When overtaking a car, and especially if it's a late pass or in a short passing zone, don't get right back in front of the car you just passed and slam on the brakes. Nobody likes when this happens on the street, and it doesn't belong on the track either. If you don't know how to pass off-line, then wave off that pass signal and wait for the next passing zone. Also, if you don't know how to pass off-line, ask an instructor to show you.

5) Do not give the pass signal and simultaneously lift. That could be dangerous. The person behind you is probably directly behind you, and if you lift (or worse, hit the brakes), he could possibly ram you. So, wait until the passing car has pulled out from behind you, then lift.

6) Check your mirrors. Check them often. Personally, I like to check as I near track-out, when I'm about halfway down a straight (even sooner for a long straight), and just before I enter a braking zone. Driving straight is incredibly easy, and you have little else to do besides checking the gauges and checking the mirrors.

7) If you have a lower horsepower car, there's no point in being on someone's back bumper throughout a turn. Following that closely limits your speed to that of the person in front of you, and it's likely slower than what you could do. If you get to track out, and you don't get a pass signal, you are going to be drag racing the car in front. If he has more horsepower, guess who's going to win that race. So, try to time the point where you catch the car to occur right after the track out.

8) Remember, if someone is suddenly behind you, it didn't happen by magic. The person behind you is probably much faster than you, and it's likely through the turns. If you are checking your mirrors often, he might have been a good distance away as you entered the turn, but all of a sudden, he's right behind you at track out. Odds are good that he's flying through the turns, and you are not. So, even if you have a car that has better straight line speed, let the car by, and you'll likely never see him again.

HOW TO HANDLE TRAINS

Even with the above advice, we'd still have trains. If you have one very slow car enter a long stretch of turns, there could easily be four or five cars behind him by the time the next passing zone is reached. Quickly dispersing that train of traffic takes cooperation from everyone.

1) The person who caused the train should try to get as many cars by him as soon as possible. Obviously, that means lots of passing signals. Make them clear and distinct so that even the fourth car in the train knows whether or not he got a passing signal.

2) The cars that are stuck in the train should also try to sort out the passing order. If you are driving the stock 914 and you are in front of the cup car, odds are pretty good that you will get passed by the cup car. Let him by while you are still in the train.

3) If you feel comfortable with it, and the track is wide enough, do the passing three wide. People pass three wide on the highway all the time. It should be no different on the track. Trains break up a lot quicker when you have twice as much passing.

4) Finally, if you are stuck in a train and you aren't passing someone, then let someone pass you. If everybody in the train obeyed that rule, there would be no trains.

5) Some regions have the policy that if you are the lead car in the train, you should run through the pit to let everybody else by.

Finally, the best way to learn how to handle traffic and trains is to take rides with instructors. I wish I could say that I figured out all of the above advice all on my own. The truth, however, is that I've taken quite a few rides with instructors in a variety of cars, and I learned how to handle traffic best from seeing what they do. Even the red run group has traffic and the occasional train. What has always amazed me is that the traffic rarely slows anyone up, and if it does, it's only for one turn.

Brian: as much as the slower cars are told to have 'track awareness' the expert drivers need to be aware of what's going on around and infront of them as well! Granted, the esses at Watkins Glen may be an exception, but advanced drivers are well aware of what's going on 'up the road,' and have the ability to 'look around the corner' by being aware of what cars were ahead of them 2-3 straights ago.

If they are surprised by a slower car in the corners, then perhaps they need to adjust their driving technique.

-Zoltan.

PS: As I mentioned in my original post, I will be in the Black run group for the first time in my next event, which is this weekend. Hopefully, no one running with me will take my comments the wrong way - otherwise, I'm in for quite a hazing! :eek: (BTW: That's not my car in my avatar - really! I drive a black 914, or a white 996.... :eek: )

Brian, you have PM.

-Zoltan.

My apologies Z and I have deleted the post. Tried to send you a PM about it, but your mailbox is full.

Thanks for deleting the post.

I've cleaned up my PM's, so the mailbox shouldn't be full.
-Zoltan.

I've been running in the white run group for about a year now, and one of the best events I've been to was my last one at the Glen with Schattenbaum. We spent a good amount of time in the classroom discussing the passing zones and what the expectations are in those zones. That way, everyone was on the same page for the event.

There are a lot of good comments here, and I can think of one other important aspect to try to understand. When you have big differences in lap times, it is hard to udnerstand the perspective of the other driver.

Take the case of a well driven, but slower car at Mid Ohio. Lap times of 2:00 might be a great time (and is in certain cars). So you are driving this car well and another car suddenly appears in your mirrors. They are driving off line in the corners as they are stuck behind you, maybe popping in and out of your mirrors and they are pretty close.

So your thought is that this person is way too aggressive and why are they trying to pass in the corners when the rule is to wait for the straight. Why are they weaving - they must be pushing way too hard to do that while behind me. That all seems logical.

Now put yourself in the fast car running laps at 1:28. You came down the back straight and there is not a car in sight. As you pop out of 10b and see them as you approach T11 - you are suddenly on the back of a slow car and can't pass for a while. You drop down to their pace - 30+ seconds per lap slower than you have been running. At this snails pace, you watch them drive - looking at both sides of their car. Maybe some other off line driving just for practice. Maybe even a bit of weaving to keep some heat in the tires. After all, you are crwaling through the corners at 1.1 g instead of 1.8. Yoiu are well back from them - given your stopping power a car length is plenty of room. That all seems logical.

The problem is that the slow driver sees very aggressive driving because they have no clue what the capabilities are of the fast car. The fast car thinks they are being reasonable, but the driver has forgotten how insane their speeds look to a slower car's driver. I think that everyone needs to realize that the other driver does not share the same perspective as you and the behaviour you think you are seeing if often not indicative of the attitude when big speed differences are involved. The greater the lap time difference, the more you have this effect.

Best laps I've driven have generally been while running combined instructors groups in DE. That put the old bone stock 944 NA on street tires out there with every fire-breathing full-race monster on the track.

I might as well have been an orange cone on the track, so I just politely kept my line, pointed, and didn't do anything surprising.

LOVED IT! There is no better way to become very comfortable with lots of traffic and much wider variety of passing areas. Great opportunity to study skilled drivers and lines.

Now, being overtaken on the Road America front straight at a closing rate of 50 mph+ when I'm already significantly into triple digits... Yikes! Makes for good in-car camera though.

I think this is great! It appears that there is a need for instruction to continue and this is one good way to do it.

For example, I remember an incredible email that I got from the Potomac region. Basically, it said that being in the white run group didn't mean that you didn't need an instructor. Instead, it meant that you got to choose your instructor. Everybody needs instructors (even the instructors!) For example, Tiger Woods was widely considered to be the best golfer in the world. Ever since he parted with his coach (Butch Harmon), he has yet to win a major.

The classroom sessions with Schattenbaum were great. I thought it was a great way to share information and ideas with fellow run group drivers and also to get instructor input at the same time. As you said, it made sure that everybody was on the same page. While there may have been an agenda for the classroom (I can't remember) the question and answer session was the most memorable for me.

Other regions have tried something like having a run where instructors take a ride with all white run group drivers. Again, it's a great way to get someone in the car to make sure that any bad habits can be nipped in the bud early.

I'm sure there are other innovative ways to make sure that the education continues. I think the danger is that many white run group (and above) drivers think they already know everything. If clubs can find ways to get them interested in learning more, that will always be a good thing.

You will find no objections from me on all the points raised here except this one. I'm sorry but I disagree on giving the point by at the apex. At the apex both my hands will remain stuck on the wheel, my eyes will look ahead and my concentration will remain on what my car is doing.
Especially in the advance groups we all take our cars to the limit pretty much and driving on the limit requires total concentration. For me the car behind should do exactly the same and if the advanced driver is prepared as they should be then after track out should give the point by and lift their foot from the gas completely to give a safe passing oportunity. This for me is one of the most critical and usual phenomenon. Fast cars not lifting sufficiently to allow the other car to complete a safe pass. Many times I have been forced to give a no pass wave because I know I cannot complete a safe pass due to the fact that maybe the straight is short and the car in front does not lift most of the times sufficiently.
Just my 0.2


:cheers:

Hi Everyone,

I've been doing a ton of DE's lately getting up to speed for Club racing. I must admit that it has at times been frustrating to go out for a session and maybe get in only 1 or 2 clean laps. Some drivers just won't let you pass either because they are inconsiderate or they just don't have good track awareness. While I have had some good PCA DE experiances, I can say that there are some other good alternative groups out there that offer the advanced drivers better quality track time. I just did an event at Roebling Road with an outfit called "Seat Time" ( I'm not affiliated with them) and they had 2 solo run groups that they seperated based on speed. I would get about 12 good clean laps per session !! It was great and I never saw a train the whole day. Of coarse it helped that I only had about 8 cars in my run group. If you look around you can find some of these events out there in the lesser known organizations. I think there are some great instructors out there in PCA though, probably some of the best anywhere. Once you get past that stage, and you want to really get those lap times down, you may find it more efficient to find some other more sparsely populated events IMHO.

Bill

I am not sure if this is in poor taste and I am not trying to start any arguments but ... I somewhat hope noone in a DE environment is ever "on the limit" so to speak. I do agree that total concentration should exist at the limits, I however disagree one should be finding them in any school (even a competition school).

Not sure how all schools are in terms of passing. 'round here, NASA and THSCC have had open passing w/ a point by for their solo and instructor groups. In that environment, it is somewhat expected that you can get a point heading into, through, out of a turn. If one chooses to take it is their decision. I always liked that and am perfectly willing to give or take a point by anywhere on the track.

The only thing I'd add to the discussion on low HP cars and expectations is the thing that surprised me initially. Even if you are in the low HP "momentum car," often times there will be someone out there in an even lower powered car pushing a bit faster. Give them the room to recharge that momentum when you let them by, they will be gone, it might take a pardon from the governor until the next set of turns however to do so.

No Adam it is not poor taste to debate opinions and I certainly don't like arguments as well. While the moral of the story so to speak the way you put it is valid , the reality is far from it. Besides doing 100+mph on a turn even not at the absolute limit demands respect and total concentration.
Noone is the instructors group is driving slow. Even if that is not at the absolute limit they are at high speeds. For me any high speed driving demands total concentration regardless if you are close to the car;s limit or not. It is not a Sunday drive on the track that is for sure. It would be wrong in my opinion to be a Sunday drive as well! The point of the exercise so to speak is to learn to drive at high speed safely your car. Most do it to better their skills and enjoy their high performance cars on a place that is controlled and relatively safe. That alone demands concentration at all times.
Therefore I refuse to practice something that all instructors teach their students: Always to have both hands on the wheel and looking ahead. If when you are at the apex or while turning take your eyes off for a second where they should be, you could miss a flag, an accident up ahead, vital information. Things happen very fast and that second can cost you vital meters of braking to avoid a wreck... Furthermore taking your left hand off the wheel, lets say on a left hander where in reality the left hand is responsible for turning down the wheel with precision you might end up loosing control if for some reason something goes wrong while you turn and you need to correct. Things dont need to take seconds to develop bad fast. It can happen in a split second at the speeds we run.
This is where my disagreement goes. To be honest what I have noticed is bad form from many drivers who maybe faster on the corner and they will pressure someone while turning. They are more impatient and that is where I ansolutely agree with you that a DE is not a race and therefore the passing car should exersice as well some patience and look ahead. If both the passing driver and the driver been passed exercise courtesy then everyone will have fun. Obviously this is not happening that is why we have these kind of threads.
Finally I always follow an easy solution instead of getting upset while driving fast. I pull into the hot pits wait for a few seconds and then problem most of the time is solved ;) :bigbye:

I'd prefer to believe that most passees who aren't giving signals are doing it because of the lack of track awareness. I'd hate to think some of them are actually sitting there saying, "I'm not going to give this guy a signal." The former is just a matter of more education.

Same thing with the passers. Yes, some people might do things that are considered aggressive, but I'd like to believe that's a matter of education. I.e., they might not realize that their actions could be considered aggressive or intimidating. Again, I'd hate to think that some drivers are out there thinking, "I'm going to scare the hell out of the guy in front of me."

Of course, suggesting to these people that they need more education can be a tricky matter. Do it wrong, and you could offend them, which would make them less receptive to getting the education that they need.

Hey Danny;

That's your opinion, and I respect it. No where did I say that my thoughts were requisite or universal. Just my opinion, and how I do things. I can't think of too many turns where I am too busy to give a point at or very near the apex. Maybe 5B and 10 at Mosport or the Oak Tree hair pin at VIR.

Granted, I am not going 100mph anywhere in my car either. Certainly, if you've not quite gotten your corner right and there is some doubt whether you are on the right vector for a clean track out, you need to keep focussed, but if you've done it all right, all the potential drama is BEFORE the apex, and the rest is just getting to the straight. Unless a wheel is coming off, I've got lots of concentration to spare at that point.

And too, maybe one should not be at the limit if a faster car is waiting to get by. Would it not be more prudent and polite to ease up just a bit so that you COULD apportion off that smidgen of concentration to give that early signal?

I don't see why an advanced driver cannot remain at least 90% focussed on his own driving, and take his hand off the wheel for a split second to give a signal. Shouldn't even require looking away from your track out point. If the driver can't do that, perhaps he is not as "unconsciously competent" as he should like to be... yet.

Then, maybe I've gotten good at it from driving a slow car for so many years... being the perennial passee!! :roflmao:

RedlineMan, must be the power steering...:)

I think the original topic was the skill level required to be in an advanced group (black/red) and I certainly agree that track awareness/courtesy should not be an issue. The goal is not to reduce the advanced groups to the "lowest common denomonator", but to provide a venue for those with the skills to handle it. You should not be promoted to black without demonstrating the skills to handle the substantially higher speeds (for given cars) as well as track management for those with cars of substantially higher capability (ex Cup cars). If you can't, then you should go back to white and learn those skills.

There is a great deal of generalizing in this discussion and while that is a good way to make some points, you have to consider the many cases where that model does not apply. It may well be the case that slowing in the corner makes the pass even harder. If the overtaking car has better cornering but less hp, taking their cornering speed away makes it harder. Each case is different.

As far as taking your hand off the wheel at the apex, it all depends on how hard you are driving. If you are trying to drive near 10/10ths, then this is a really bad idea. If you are at 8 or 9/10ths, then great - you have plenty of excess capacity.

On passing:
A couple of thoughts:

1. Point-by's in the corner: what's the difference if I give a point by in the corner or at the track out cone? Perhaps the car behind me will be able to get ahead of me a few meters earlier. But most passing zones are sufficiently long enough to not have to worry about a few meters! (The only really tight passing zone I can think of is the 'chute' between Big Bend and the Left Hander at Lime Rock). My point is this: it is far safer to give a point-by at track out rather than at the apex. Will this 'upset' the following car's momentum? Not if the cars are familiar with each other! Most people I run with know how I drive, what to expect of me, and they will certainly get a point by at the soonest (and safest) time if they come up behind me. As said before, in DE, it's safety first. It is far safer to signal after the apex (or signal before the turn and after as well).

2. I would rather give a point by at the track out and, if necessary, lift a little to let a car by. Again, if the driver is familiar with me, he will know that the point by will be coming and can set himself up for the pass.

3. If a corner is sharp enough, a driver following behind me may not see my point-by at the apex. The straighter the two cars are relative to each other, the easier it is to see the point. Also: the straighter the steering wheel is in my hands, the easier it is to control the car with one hand.

Now, for a short, true story. (Names and locations have been altered to protect the innocent :D )
I was out on track and caught up to a driver. No point by was given. No biggie: I figure I'd get one at the next straight. No such luck. We were just about equal in speed on the straight, but he was definately holding me up in the corners. After another 1/2 lap of this, a friend of mine caught up with us. Finally, after about 2 laps, I got the point by.
Although I was patient with the guy I was following, after the point by, my built up emotion caused me to drive perhaps the quickest laps I had ever driven! My friend who was behind me finally caught up with me, and I let him go by.
After the run, the guy who wouldn't let me by asked me "Was I holding you up?" I politely said, "Well, you could have let me by earlier." His response: "Well, you earned that pass." (I must have skipped that part of the track pack where it says passes must be earned.... :rolleyes: )
At the end of the day, my friend who came up behind me during the incident asked me, "Who lit a fire under your butt? We were quite surprised how fast you were driving after you passed that guy." I inquired who the "We" was. It turns out that one of the chief instructors was riding with my friend! And the chief was ready to pit in and have the car I was following black flagged! Ya never know who's watching. Had I done the 'weaving to get attention' or the 'ride his bumper' bit, the chief may have not been so happy with me.

So, you never know who's out there with you. I think keeping your cool even in a frustrating situation like a car that won't let you pass is important.

Just my $0.42,
-Z-man.

Personally, I would like to see a pass signal at track out because I know the other driver knows exactly where and when they want the pass taken, there is no lag time between signal and the pass. When a signal is given in the corner, by the time we get to track out, I am not 100% sure what is happening any longer, and I want to be 100% sure. As I come upon a car, I have a good idea of where and how I want to pass so I time it so I'm carrying more speed that the other car at track out and am positioning myself to pass, generally on the inside, which means my track out point is his rear corner, not the edge of the track. In a well educated group, this comes with no dramma and little loss of track speed, but only happens if people are practicing proper track management.

I have been to some open passing events and have enjoyed myself and like the freedom to pass in the corners with no siganl. However, I'm never 100% sure the other car sees me and that increases the risk of contact.

Ok, I'll try to make mine short:

The best advice I ever received at a DE about traffic is to: "Deal with it!"

If someone is consistently holding you up, don't place yourself in situation to where you would be around them during the session. Some suggestion would be to grid up far away from them or pull into the pits when you get close to them. I know that you think it’s taking track time away from you, but think of all the aggravation you will be avoiding. Another suggestion would be to talk to the driver about the situation. Remember, they probably paid just as much as you did to drive on the track. If you want clean laps, go on a private day. I don’t expect a single clean lap at a DE, but when I get one, I’m happy.

There have been “bad” drivers in every run group I’ve ever driven in, but I’ve learned to deal with them. The term “bad” refers to drivers which I believe know they should give you a passing signal but don’t.

Finally, on the topic of when to give a passing signal, my reaction is back off when I see a passing signal before track out. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen drivers get two wheels off while trying to give the signal before track out. I have this vision of them coming across track and nailing me in the door.

George

With all this discussion about DE driving and passing etiquette, how many of you participants have noticed that this level of training has made you a better more observant driver on the city / highway roads? I find myself more observant of what is around me and what is way in front of me. I also tend to concentrate more on driving and less on those other distractions that cause so many accidents.

The bottom line is: I appreciate DE's because they make me a better overall driver AND they are extremely fun.

(But...racing is more fun!!!)

While we are on the topic of aggressive driving, what characteristics do people define as aggressive? SundayDriver made a great point that things that seem fairly routine to one driver in a highly capable car could seem aggressive to someone in a less capable vehicle.

For example, how close do you want a car to be to you before you consider it aggressive? Do we realize that if somebody is closer than our comfort level dictates, they might not consider it aggressive? Conversely, if we are following someone at a comfortable distance, that person may consider us aggressive?

Do you always wait behind the other car until the pass signal comes? Or, do you start to move over in anticipation of the pass signal? Is moving over considered aggressive?

Do you start to initiate the pass before the signal comes? I.e., might you take a corner tighter and start the pass in expectation of a signal (note you might do this where there is a very short passing zone). Is this considered aggressive? (By the way, I'm not suggesting that one should pass without a signal. I'm asking if in addition to moving over in anticipation of the pass signal, do you also accelerate?)

When you get the pass signal, how close are you to other car when you pass? Do you have a car width of distance? More? Less? Would being too close be considered aggressive?

I think we all might have different answers to these questions as a lot of them are very subjective. Furthermore, the answers could be highly dependent on run groups. For example, within the red run group, perhaps there is a reasonable expectation that pass signals will be given all of the time and you can start to initiate the pass expecting a pass signal to show up. In the green run group, you might be best advised to wait behind the other car. And in between those groups is a bunch of gray area.

OK...

A lot of my comments are predicated on driving a substantially horsepower challenged car. It is obvious that a lot of you guys know little about the dynamics involved with that. For example, a stock 964 C2 is a pretty mundane car by advanced group standards, and yet you must realize that this car has 100HP MORE than I do. Unless you live it, you just don't get it. That's not crying, just the realities.

Anyway, here's my deal. I give passes EARLY. Regardless of whether the car behind is fast or slow, I hustle my ass through the turn and signal at the apex. I have no problems doing this. I don't drop wheels, I don't waver from my line, I don't even look up. I just do my thing quickly and efficiently. If you cannot or do not feel comfortable doing this, that is OK. Maybe you'll get there some day... power steering or no! ;) I merely offer it as an idea of ultimate communal driving etiquette.

If the driver behind is nervous about me, it is his prerogative to wait, but at least I did my part on his behalf. Once he gets used to me, he LOVES me for this! If it is a high HP car, I really don't care if I slow him down because he'll be gone anyway. If it's a low HP car, I want to be as quick as I usually am. In either case, I am doing the same thing. Getting it done quick and clean.

Sunday - As far as slower cars loosing pace, that is PRECISELY WHY I signal them early, and why I appreciate an EARLY signal from a slower car ahead of me. This allows me to move out of their mirrors early and take a different line (inside or outside) that allows me to keep my momentum up to the max instead of lifting and dogging along waiting for them to get around to it while making sure they see me. The best scenario is when I have timed my exit acceleration perfectly and am already making my move as the driver signals. That is heaven to me!!

Z - Getting people to lift is THE HARDEST thing to achieve. MUCH harder than even getting a signal in the first place. I'd rather get the jump on them when I still have the advantage. I'm faster in the turns already, and I want to use that advantage to get along side them early instead of watching them signal and then disappear! This is particularly important when I have a faster car behind me, and therefore am looking to set up a double pass. If I can get an early signal and get the jump on that slower car early, I can then quickly give a signal to the car behind me to go by us both. Now THAT'S DRIVING!

I've been a run group mole for years. If someone is holding ME up, they NEED a chat with Pit One!

Geoff - You're right. What it takes to be advanced was the original discussion, and a great one it has been. Passing is the biggest part of advanced etiquette. To those who are in this boat, participating here, or lurking, they are finding out about the advanced dynamic.

Mission accomplished! :bigbye:

I've got a friend who drives a stock 914 (well, actually a stock 914 puts out more HP :eek: ). I can't count the number of times I've seen someone give him a pass signal and then floor it out of the corner. It's amazing how many people think that if this car caught up to them, it must be putting out more power than that...

I have to be honest, I have NO idea what it is like to drive a slow car fast at a track while trying to deal with traffic. No concept, it does not compute. I have seen situations where a slower car struggles to pass another car in front of me, but that just usually means I go 3 wide and pass both so I'm not really in the situation. I can tell you that every pass I give means I have to lift off the throttle for the overtaking car to complete its pass. For me, sometimes I can close on other cars so fast, and in those situations, I don't think (or expect) that they have seen me. An example is at the top of the esses at WGI where I may not be visible to a car if they check their mirrors at the beginning of the straight, but by the braking zone, I'm closing at +30mph and I really want the pass so I can continue without loosing momentum. If I don't get it, I want it at the next earliest passing zone and am setting up to pass on the inside, expecting the signal. This means I might not ride the car at turn in, but by the apex, I'm closing and carrying more speed than they are and am beginning the pass if you will by track out. I try to always give a "thank you" wave as I complete the pass.

Aggressive??? to some I suppose, but that is in my opinion the nature of advanced run groups.

The first thing that I do when I get a pass signal is to pull out for the pass. If the passee does not lift, he will often break heavy and early, as he knows that I am trying to get by. If I don't get by, I'll get on his tail through the turn and look for another signal on the next straight.
I used to wait, before pulling out, or sometimes I would waive off the pass, as I knew it would be tough for me in my low-hp car to get by before the turn-in. I no longer wait, I feel that I've "earned" :) the pass when I get the signal, and it is up to the passee to let me by. He (or she) knows about lifting, and when they see me out in the passing lane and not gaining ground, they suddenly realize that they have more hp and that they may need to lift off completely or brake hard, as we approach the turn-in.

I also give pass signals at the apex AND trackout for the superfast cars - so they know I see them, and so they know which side to pass on. They are often already by me by the trackout cone. I feel that its a courtesy, and I often get a "thank you" wave. If I'm running at 10/10's, or I'm too busy for some other reason, or if the car is not all that much faster than me, I often wait until the trackout to give the signal

Brian P, I'd say its more defined by how they appear to be in control of the car. I've had a Daiso-esque thingy seemingly underneath me at VIR before and didn't give it a second thought because there is no earthly way I am going to outbrake that car and I know the guy, he's not putting me in harm's way irrespective of how it looks from my vantage point. I have had an M5 in FRONT that scared the crap out of me cause in my estimation, his hands were way over his brows. I really think driving aggression is more in the attitude of the car rather than proximity or what the car is doing behind me.

Passing tight or giving room, staying off line into the turn or coming back over for more entry room after a pass, anticipating a pass or laying back until seeing a point - all that stuff IMO is really based on whom you are out there with. For the most part with instructors I am giving a wide berth passing on the straights, in the turns when they let me by, I am going to get up closer to them however as I feel it is safer for both of us and lets me get out of their way sooner. I will usually start to leak over to where I want to go by them as I think it helps the communication process. I have had guys cross the track and point the other way, that's fine by me, just trying to help out. When the roles are reversed, I try to point in the direction the point is coming so they have an idea what I am thinking (point in the turn and again more demonstratively exiting). I have had some monstorously fast cars come up on me unexpected and I'll usually give them a wave I see them and either pull the exit tighter or open it up some more to let them by toute suite. I am not out there to bork up anyone's seat time as much as I'd hope they feel the same towards me.

As someone mentioned the "earned pass" above, this is something I do believe in provided we are talking about the same thing. If I have passed a car with more straightline speed in a session and due to someone else holding me up they have gotten back up to me, I will not automatically give them a point. If they are there through the next set of turns, they are welcome to it however.

Personally, I found that most guys eventually do lift at some point after they have given a point. Sometimes it does seem to take them a moment (or 3/4 of a straight) to remember but I have found most do.

Not a bad policy. I've started to find that usually both cars know what is going on. I've let a "slower" car by and caught up to him due to traffic. He gave me a pass signal and I waved it off because I knew that I caught him due to traffic, and I also wanted to learn why he was faster than me.

I've also had the situation reversed where I passed a "faster" car and they caught me due to traffic. Similarly, he waved off the pass signal that I gave him. Interestingly, this was at the Zone 1 event by a person who had just been promoted to the black run group.

I think what alot of people are missing is John's orginal statement that people should be competent and courteous. If you're not comfortable enough with traffic, you should not be in the higher run groups. Part of dealing with traffic is letting faster cars pass, whether they have HP or not. If you not sure if someone is faster, let them pass. Some of my best sessions have been with a car of similar speed running "against" each other. I hope I didn't put words in John's mouth.

As for agressive driving, everyone has different styles. I guess I'm a little more lenient, but if a car gets a run on me at track out and or even a little early, that's alright by me.

Matt

Matt

Great stuff guys!

Here's my rule;

- Everyone, give a signal to any car behind you.

If everyone does that, everyone will be happy and it will build a huge sense of community. If everyone who gets that signal knows that they have not earned it, then they can and should wave it off and everyone is extra happy. This REALLY builds that sense of community.

When you get a good pass, give a good wave of thanks. More community building. I give a huge one. :bigbye: If somebody actually gives it up and lifts for me, I give them a big Thumbs Up as I go by, no matter if it took them 1/2 a mile to get the hint. They'll remember next time! :thumbup:

After you've gone and done a bunch of fast laps, it's almost more fun to be in the mix. Working with other drivers, moving, jossling, setting each other up for traffic flow, three wide passes, ever try a four wide? Great fun! Yep, traffic can be fun with a good group of guys!

Just think of what we have brought to light here. We may have just schooled the next group of advanced drivers. Thanks guys!! :thumbsup:

John;
You (and others) have mentioned 3 and 4 wide passes. Which/ how many Regions allow these? I've never seen it done without being called in "for a talk." Perhaps we're a bit conservative here in the Mid-West.....

I don't think that's a conservative viewpoint, I too wonder if that would fly down this way. I am not sure, perhaps so. Heck, I haven't seen it that much in racing either now that I think about it.

No, neither have I. There are some times I can see it working, but it's generally frowned on "in these here parts."

I've been a part of three-wide passing at Lime Rock, Watkins Glen, and Pocono. Most of the time, I was the middle car. Must be the 'fast pace' we're used to here in the North East. :)

In all honesty, it is a very efficient way to pass and keep from bunching up.

-Z.

I'm a big fan of the 3-wide pass, but I've had people (particularly at BMW events) look at me like I have two heads when I talk about it between sessions.
If I'm passing a slow car and there is a faster car behind me, I'll furiously point the fast car by, and they'll usually go.

Perhaps things are bigger up here in the Northeast (I thought that's a line used by Texas). Anyhow, several of our tracks have VERY wide straights and three wide passes can be done without any drama. Four wide can be done without drama also, but it's rare that you get that much coordination between drivers. Also, it's rare that the train is stacked up in order of slowest to fastest.

Training is the key
 

Hi All
Good thread with many good points.

My two cents,
It is "education" . At our Last NER event at Mt. Tremblant I put on a two part passing seminar at lunch times and it went pretty well. Honesty there was some self-interest involved as a “faster car”. I covered the whole spiel IE description and diagrams of POWER – MOMENTUM – DRAFT BY AND (NOT FOR DE BRAKE ZONE), who is on line and who is off line, in various types of corners and combinations of same along with setup lines timeing your move etc. I think it is important to stress in Yellow / white that dealing with faster/slower overtaking traffic with out costing yourself speed IE “fun factor” is a skill to be mastered and to take pride in.
NER has used the “any place it is strait” WITH A POINT BY rule for Black and Red for several year and we seem to have a minimum of friction. I would suggest we (all PCA regions) due a good job with the basics but if we are having problems is white/black that we should look at our “continuing education” program. When I was doing Instructor Training we had some required reading. Maybe we should be beefing up the advanced techniques/terms training in the Mid-levels of DE with more class room offerings?

Yes;

We do have the advantage of some wide tracks in the Northeast. 3-wides are not uncommon, and keep things moving nicely when they arise. I've only been in one 4-wide, and it is really no big deal when you are way inside. I never particularly knew it was happening until I first heard and then saw the 4th car go by on the outside of everyone. Everybody just holds their line until they are (well) clear and then tucks in. Pretty cool!

Most of the Northeast has employed the "wherever it's straight" rule for some time in most events. It is a lot of fun and keeps things moving. It's a hoot for us non racers to have a car inside bombing into the Esses at WGI and never lift! Now, we don't do that in the lower groups, but the 48 Hours did expand the zones to "almost" everywhere this year and it worked VERY well. Might as well school 'em early!

I guess this thread came about in my mind because I realized that the consistency of the sense of community that this type of advanced driving fomented has slipped dramatically in the last couple of years with the introduction of many new advanced drivers to the mix. As Bill suggests, it might be time to school some of these young'uns before we let 'em run with the Fleischunds!

I like the idea of continuing education. I also like the idea of letting anyone behind you pass.

Do you guys notice that if you wave off a pass from some folks (for reason of not feeling that the pass can be accomplished at that point) you never get another one? That is sooo frustrating.

I think I am going to suggest a "proper passing technique" session for all students to our region. Not just a glossed over "stay on line" type that's now being taught.

Yes Mitch;

Being the guy that is always working his tailpipe off to try and get by these people, it is particularly frustrating when someone takes a situational wave off as a signal that you NEVER want to pass. You practically have to punt them in order to make them understand it was a one-time-only offer... and that they are still SLOW and IN THE WAY!!!

If everyone gives a signal to every car that is behind them, such maladies never occur. If the car behind knows the car in front has been held up, or that they have not otherwise earned the pass, they should give a wave off. The trick is getting full compliance to BOTH halves of the rule.

This post is a little different, but on a similar idea.

I took my little 2600 lbs as raced, 131 rhp 944 to Las vegas for the PCA Club race there. Being prepped to 944-spec forces me into PCA GT4S. The way the classes were divided GT4S was the slowest class in the fast group. Considering that my car has no chance in class it was going to be interesting.

Well with the top cars (Modded GT3 Cups, GTC3 Cups, GT3RS, etc) in the group run 15-20 seconds faster per lap I did alot of looking the mirrors and gave alot of point bys in the practice. One thing I wanted to do was to let them know that I knew they were there and what I was going to do to let them by. Seemed to work as most folks learned this during the weekend and never hassled me. Funny thing was that I did not hold them up that much in the corners, but was very keen on pointing by when the road straightned out. I typically held my line and point them by at track out.

No point bys are needed in racing, but again given the slow speed I could muster I wanted the others to know I was not going to try to mess with them. Overall it really seemed to work as very few forced passes were made. Most guys waited until the right time and drove off in the distance.

A couple times in the race I would franticly point by multiple cars especially cars racing for position. No need to get in between a position fight if I can avoid it.

Z:

I completely disagree. I think a "point-by before the trackout" is a valuable skill that all upper run group drivers should be able to use.

In DE we accept that the slower car stays online and the faster car goes off-line to perform the pass. This is because if the pass is not completed before turn-in, the faster car should be able to take the turn off-line at equal or greater speed than the slower car.

Well the same idea exists for tracking out. A faster car should be able to exit a turn, without fully tracking out, at a same or faster speed than a slower car.

A good example of this is the Downhill at Lime Rock. If I have a faster car behind me I don't see a problem with giving a right-side point by as we go under the bridge. The faster car can't pass me before the Downhill (It's not a passing zone, and we're too close to the turnin). Then he can choose to fully trackout and then pass me, or not fully trackout and pass me on the fly. If I don't give the signal before trackout, he can not make that decision.

Also, whenever you cross the track during a passing zone, I think it's a good idea to give very early (pre-trackout) signals. At the Heel at WG, I frequently give a Left signal in the braking zone. The faster car is not going to pass me on the left (in the grass). I then don't fully trackout of the Heel, and the faster car can fully trackout and get a good pass (in a relatively short passing zone). If instead I do as you suggest, I fully trackout, then start to get to the right and THEN give a left signal, we're half way up the hill to the uphill-offcamber and the pass is very difficult if not impossible.

A similar example at WG is a Left signal in the Carousel with the pass being completed before the Laces.

JD, #177

JD

For what it's worth the downhill at Limerock is a passing zone for the Red run group in Schattenbaum. I have passed cars there as well as given the pass there.

Pete

JD,

The corners at WG you describe talk about early vs late passing signals. On the heel, an early pass is taken on the right (as is the carousel) and a late pass is taken on the left (as is the carousel) The car being passed should not be required to move off line, he can if he chooses, but it is the responsibility of the passing car to complete the pass safely.

Jimbo -
Having just gotten back from Pocono DE, I can somewhat see your point.

The fact was that I was able to give a point-by as I was approaching the trackout point. I'm running in black with a slower car compared to some of the other cars out there. (Pesky cup cars! :eek: ) Anyway, the fact is that most folks in my run group are by now familiar with my car, and will be expecting their point-by. So I am not slowing them down any by waiting a few meters after the apex to give them the pass.

IMHO, all this is relative to the cars involved, the track, the corners and the drivers. There are no absolutes when it comes to the best methods for point-bys.
-Z.

I much prefer a passing signal when the pass should be executed - as it's clear to both drivers what's available (left or right, now). Giving the signal before a turn allows for something to happen (didn't take the corner well or whatever) prior to the other car making the pass. You shouldn't assume that because a pass isn't allowed, that by giving it early, that someone won't take it. Unfortunately I've seen drivers give passing signals, and being passed, in zones that weren't available to them.

Also, if the track officials are watching for passing signals (coming out of the downhill at LR, for example), a signal prior to the turn won't be picked up, and the overtaking car may be black flagged.

That's a good point Z. I find that it is pretty easy to learn who is going to let you by easily and who is going be difficult. So if I know the car in front of me always lets me by, then I go ahead and take the turn offline if needed to get setup for the pass, so when I receive the signal at track out, I am already in position and can pass without really missing a beat. And for those who don't - I live with it and take the oppurtunity to play a bit - take a turn offline, play with trying variations of a line, etc. And then if they go a lap and still don't let me by, then I stoop to filling their mirrors which usually helps them get the point.

Hey Gents;

Of course we could go on and on about passing as it pertains to VERY SPECIFIC SCENARIOS at SPECIFIC LOCATIONS at SPECIFIC TRACKS. The point of my bringing this all up was to highlight the need for new advanced group drivers to get with their new program and give early signals to ANYONE, especially if they happened to be just a windshield and a pair of beady eyes in their mirrors. Being held up by inattentiveness or old intermediate skill sets in advanced groups SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. Not for long anyway.

ALL drivers regardless of run group should be encouraged to give signals at the earliest moment they feel comfortable.

- It is not fair nor necessary for a more powerful car to Signal and Squirt for turns-on-end while a faster driver fumes behind them, at a snail's pace in the turns.

- It would not be fair or necessary for - say, my car - to wait until the absolute track out point on the back straight at WGI to let a Cup Car pass. I stay left passing the apex in 3, move over 1 car width going over the bridge and let them go WELL BEFORE sight of the flag station. When faster drivers grow accustomed to my style, they do indeed appreciate it!

At the stage we should be at as advanced drivers, I am going to default to giving the earliest signal I can EVERYWHERE. It is then up to the passer to do it right, or opt out of a pass if it seems imprudent to him. The only skill required by the passee is to decide if it will be a left or right pass, early or late, and then to make sure he is settled and in control for the pass he is allowing. It is then up to the passer to do his deal effectively and within protocol.

You may often find times when a car will be held up in mid turn. This is to be expected and dealt with in an adult fashion. But, there is no reason why a faster car should be held up unnecessarily (or ignored!) exiting a corner. That is the fault of the passee, and that person needs to first be aware that he is holding people up, and perhaps being rude, and then take steps to correct this problem and make himself a good addition to the advanced group.

:)

You need to do some non-NNJR events. When me & BrianP did Summit with Potomac earlier this year (and also at Zone 2 VIR), it was very confusing since I didn't know any of the cars or drivers. You shouldn't assume the driver behind you knows your habits.

RedlineMan: Agree completely. Give earlier signals everywhere.

One thing I think has been missed in this thread is giving late passes. Less-skilled/lower-HP drivers think they are driving 10/10th of a corner. They don't realize that more-skilled/faster driver can take corners faster than they think is possible. By not giving a late pass signal, they are holding up the faster car unneccarily. If the faster car can't make the pass, he then has the option of waving the pass off. Without a signal, he has no options.

- RedDogger, #177 (Should have been RD, not JD)

True Jimbo;

There are a lot of other issues involved with passing that we could get into other than timeliness of signalling, but that is the MAJOR and PERVASIVELY UNIVERSAL issue, and one that does not need to exist if everyone buckles down and does what they should.

Late passing is something we all do and know about, even if it is "not supposed to happen." I have no problem with it at all as long as everyone has their chops. It gets the fast guys going and the "slow" guys rid of them! It's fun too!!

Just another aspect of advanced driving. That is why I take generic novice passing scenarios as an opportunity to teach ALL of my students the proper mechanics and etiquette of late passing right from the start. When they get to intermediate and advanced, they already know how!

Start 'em out right when theyz young, fellers!

Having also been at Pocono, I noticed one thing that courteous drivers do and the not so courteous don't.... A courteous driver will make sure that the passing signal comes in time so that the passer doesn't have to lift. Maybe the higher HP cars don't mind it as much, but if you are driving a momentum car and you have to lift waiting for the pass signal... well, that's when things get frustrating.

In that regards, I don't mind waiting for a pass signal until track out if I don't have to lift. If the passee knows that he's under the limit and can give that signal earlier so that I can adjust my line and carry my momentum, then I'm extremely happy. Also, the passee is likely to be happier too. If I have to lift, my momentum is shot, and the passee will likely have to go down the following straight at half throttle if he wants me to get by him. If I could have carried my momentum, it's possible that we both could have been at full throttle.

I suspect this might be why "momentum" drivers might be seen as a bit aggressive. I'm going to try to carry my speed until the last available opportunity. Basically, I'll give the passee every chance to signal and I'll try to carry my speed so that the pass happens quickly. If that signal doesn't come, it'll look like I'm racing right up onto the guy's back bumper.

One other thing. I suspect that the original reason that John started this thread had VERY LITTLE to do with whether a pass signal came at track out or at the apex. I suspect it had a lot to do with the fact that a pass signal never came at all. It didn't come at track out on the guys who were caught in the corner, and it didn't come on the straights on people he caught because he was coming out of the corners much faster and therefore carrying more speed.

Well, Brian;

Actually it WAS about the timeliness of the signal. I see it as only fair, right, and necessary for an advanced driver to be able to give an early signal.

As for the guys who DON'T signal, if it were up to me they would be black flagged, sat still, talked to, and then sent out to correct their communally inappropriate behavior. If it happened again, they would be sent out with the explicit understanding that they would be watched VERY CLOSELY, and if they did it again, they'd be invited to leave, and be back in intermediate the next time.

Guys who are in people's way like that get stuffed in the fence in SCCA. Boy... if only...

So I'm a little PO'd at the moment?! Not at you guys, or about this topic. I just have a hard time with mediocrity and ignorance. I just don't think we should have to default to that low a common denominator in advanced. I want everyone to strive for better, and it seems there needs to be some energy spent in training new advanced drivers, or retraining old ones!

Signal here, signal there, signal everywhere! :)

John, how much of your track time is spent in DEs versus racing? I agree with you on early point-bys; I also find that a lot of people who advance to the higher level run groups find that in order to keep growing/developing/scaring themselves ;), they natually migrate into racing, where these kinds of issues are moot.

Intersting thread on the 993 board in light of the 'education' discussion over here.

DE passing signals

Hmm, maybe the runs you took in black were on the second day. On the first day, the least of my complaints would have been about the timeliness of the signal. We had people either not signalling or allowing a giant train to get behind them and then letting only one car go per passing zone. Honestly, I've seen better out of yellow run groups. :grr:

I'm not sure what happened between day 1 and day 2, but it got MUCH better on day 2.

I'll go back to my previous statement - if the pass signals are given early enough that I don't have to lift, I'm happy. If they are given early enough that I don't have to start wondering if I'll have to lift, then I'm ecstatic.

Wow, a Boxster S is a momentum car :) I fear I must swim in very different waters from the rest of you fellas ;)

I guess I'll put my 2 cents in here as well... During the last year I have done alot of DE's running in black and red. When I first moved up fromt white it was a whole new ball game. Going from being the fastest to one of the slowest was a big change. I had to learn to give passing signals again. Now I am fast again and I do have to say that at Metro NY events at least, I am nothing short of very impressed and thankful for all of the wonderfully aware drivers in red and black. 9 out of 10 times I get a pass with plenty of lead time and I don't even have to lift. Unfortunately I ended up in a precarious position at Pocono last week. Running in red and coming down the back straight I passed a car and was catching another 911. Having been paying more attention to the car I was passing and not the one ahead I quickly realized he was going WAY to slow for the group. At 150mph and still accelerating, I probably had 50 mph closure. Expecting a pass signal, I watched and waited. Decision time... I went around him anyway. I am not happy with this decision, but I felt it safer than slamming on my brakes. This begs the question of what that person was doing in an instructor group. No mechanical problems, just new to the track. For those of you that have not done Pocono full, the straight is longer and easier that WGI. I hate to say no excuse for doing 100, but my green student was going 100 first day on the track. Yes there are other drivers in Red that max out at 110 in their cars, but they are acutely aware of who is behind them and don't create these dangerou situations. All in all, I think PCA has a good program and I understand the pressure to move students up to balance the ranks and the recluctance to move up students just because they are fast. I guess we just need to spread the word that etiquite and safety go hand in hand especially in the faster run groups.

Funny. I learned on a 2.5L tiptronic boxster. Granted, it's not quite the momentum car that a 944 NA is, but let me assure you that a drag race between the two would be very close. After learning how to conserve momentum in that car, I've since learned to do the same in the Boxster S.

The Boxster S has a similar power to weight ratio of a 993. Nowadays, that is getting to be a bit underpowered in the black and red run groups. :eek:

I'd say any car that weighs more than 2500 pounds and has less than 300 hp could be considered a momentum car.

Which isn't to say it's not going to be pretty quick. Some momentum cars generate more momentum than others. ;)

Well, its a relative term, Michael Schumacher races a momentum car. Just a different fishbowl we must swim in, that's all. I can think of several NASA events several years ago where a Boxster S was arguably the most powerful car in the Instructor group (maybe a Bitch'n ;) M3 and her 951 hubby would rival it power-wise but it would be on the top shelf). I think when most folks refer to it in the sense of a school though, they mean a car that can ill-afford to be forced to park it at the apex and still appear to be deserving of a point by in relation to the other cars out there.

I pointed it out just because it ties into what I was trying to say a few pages ago. I found that cars were progressively slower and went progressively faster the higher the rungroup and as I said: Even if you are in the low HP "momentum car," often times there will be someone out there in an even lower powered car pushing a bit faster. Knowing this and being respectful of it is kinda important IMO.

If you guys haven't tried a NASA hpde, I am pretty sure certified PCA instructors are welcome and you might find the open passing w/ a point more up your alley. Maybe not?? Just a thought.

Ed - I had a similar experience at Lime Rock a few years ago. I think it was my first time in White, though. I passed a car on the front straight and was paying more attention to that, than the car in front. I didn't really know that there was a car in front until it was too late. The guy was going dog-slow in a 911. He was on the far left, probably at the 200 mark, and I was flying toward him. No signal (too late anyway), but I had a decision to make and I dove in to the right. As far as I was concerned, it was a very safe maneuver (as he was still far to the left), although I do regret that I didn't see him earlier, and that I wasn't able to safely slip behind him through Big Bend. At any rate, I was black flagged and chewed out for scaring some big-wig from the track, who was the passenger, taking a (very slow) touring lap around in my session. OOPS!
:)

PS - I was also going to add in my post above that I don't think that a 986S, 993, or even 964 are momentum cars. This would make a great new thread - to discuss this concept.
Speaking from experience, I used to drive a 964 in Black and I could keep up with most cars, even though I hadn't mastered the concept of momentum.

993's make great power, and I assume that 986s's do as well. Each of these cars have tons of torque and 6 gears. I just can't see calling them momentum cars...

Good idea. Here's a new thread.

Brian -

I'll tell you what happened. First, I think some of the better new advanced guys that were in black realized they were in The Bigs and got on the ball. Second, a lot of instructors went to RED! I went because I moved my student from Green to Yellow. I also went to find a higher level of courtesy. So Black was less densely populated on Sunday. "The fastest drivers left!"

Of course that mucked up Red a bit because of increased traffic, and I even had some problems there, but that is another story.

Ed -

I'm right with you. Well said. You do have the distinct advantage, running only Metro events, of having the same group of drivers each time. Having that familiarity is key to ultimate smoothness. A SKILLED group doesn't hurt either, of course. That is the way it used to be at the 48 Hours, but in recent years it has gotten fouled by a lot of new people coming in that were not up to par with awareness. Guess they just need some larnin!

As for what is a momentum car, that would be quite relative. A 964 would be compared to a 996 and so on. But, having a 50-or-more HP disparity with most of the rest of the "field" would seem to be a good barometer. Heck... it would be GREAT if that's all the gap I was dealing with!! :roflmao: