A great new idea for covering track expenses
07-22-2024, 04:27 PM
#16
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I will share the Kaizen link with my customer. Thank you for sharing!
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'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
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jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
'09 Carrera 2S, '08 Boxster LE (orange), '91 Acura NSX, Tesla Model 3 Performance, Fiesta ST
Jeff Ritter
Mgr. High Performance Division, Essex Parts Services
Essex Designed AP Racing Radi-CAL Competition Brake Kits & 2-piece J Hook Discs
Ferodo Racing Brake Pads
Spiegler Stainless Steel Brake Lines
704-824-6030
jeff.ritter@essexparts.com
07-22-2024, 04:43 PM
#17
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I wonder how it works with:
- mechanical failure through no fault of the renter (who possibly must forfeit the remainder of his paid-in-full track event reg fee)
- tech inspection cost & logistics
- damage when driven by renter and is their fault
- damage when driven by renter and not their fault (but they were in wrong place/wrong time when something unavoidable happens)
- track insurance - paid for by renter with lessee’s name added to policy? Who pays deductible?
- liability to the owner for injury to renter while driving the car (due to accident or mechanical failure, whether or not the fault of the renter)
Seems like it could be complex. I don’t know if the liability insurance policies for track days would cover something like renting your car to someone. Not sure if personal liability would cover something like that. I’d need to understand the worst-case-scenarios before doing it.
Obviously if a car is relatively low value, maybe one just self-insures and there’s no need for track insurance. But there is still liability associated with renting your car to someone who is injured as a result.
Maybe some of the attorneys will chime in.
- mechanical failure through no fault of the renter (who possibly must forfeit the remainder of his paid-in-full track event reg fee)
- tech inspection cost & logistics
- damage when driven by renter and is their fault
- damage when driven by renter and not their fault (but they were in wrong place/wrong time when something unavoidable happens)
- track insurance - paid for by renter with lessee’s name added to policy? Who pays deductible?
- liability to the owner for injury to renter while driving the car (due to accident or mechanical failure, whether or not the fault of the renter)
Seems like it could be complex. I don’t know if the liability insurance policies for track days would cover something like renting your car to someone. Not sure if personal liability would cover something like that. I’d need to understand the worst-case-scenarios before doing it.
Obviously if a car is relatively low value, maybe one just self-insures and there’s no need for track insurance. But there is still liability associated with renting your car to someone who is injured as a result.
Maybe some of the attorneys will chime in.
I also created a simple agreement between co-owners of our AER/Champ car which is very similar to a rental agreement as it apportions rights and responsibilities to the various drivers.
It is so hard to apportion the risk that it is almost useless. Sometimes a driver just comes back to the paddock holding a steering wheel and it is hard to write up an agreement that takes all the risks of racing into consideration. Teams that rent cars generally do so with a "premium" in the price which contains a risk factor. If the real cost of renting the car is $2k, including a decent profit margin, than the price to rent should be $3k - $4k to account for the risk.
If you love your car, and don't treat the rental as just a business, there is a huge chance of it ending in tears. The flip side of that is some people do not have the budget to go to the track and if this is something which lets them go more, than perhaps they can consider renting their car. I'm less attached to my AER/Champ car and would consider renting that car if the team approved, but never one of my personal race cars.
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07-23-2024, 02:54 AM
#19
I wonder how it works with:
- mechanical failure through no fault of the renter (who possibly must forfeit the remainder of his paid-in-full track event reg fee)
- tech inspection cost & logistics
- damage when driven by renter and is their fault
- damage when driven by renter and not their fault (but they were in wrong place/wrong time when something unavoidable happens)
- track insurance - paid for by renter with lessee’s name added to policy? Who pays deductible?
- liability to the owner for injury to renter while driving the car (due to accident or mechanical failure, whether or not the fault of the renter)
Seems like it could be complex. I don’t know if the liability insurance policies for track days would cover something like renting your car to someone. Not sure if personal liability would cover something like that. I’d need to understand the worst-case-scenarios before doing it.
Obviously if a car is relatively low value, maybe one just self-insures and there’s no need for track insurance. But there is still liability associated with renting your car to someone who is injured as a result.
Maybe some of the attorneys will chime in.
- mechanical failure through no fault of the renter (who possibly must forfeit the remainder of his paid-in-full track event reg fee)
- tech inspection cost & logistics
- damage when driven by renter and is their fault
- damage when driven by renter and not their fault (but they were in wrong place/wrong time when something unavoidable happens)
- track insurance - paid for by renter with lessee’s name added to policy? Who pays deductible?
- liability to the owner for injury to renter while driving the car (due to accident or mechanical failure, whether or not the fault of the renter)
Seems like it could be complex. I don’t know if the liability insurance policies for track days would cover something like renting your car to someone. Not sure if personal liability would cover something like that. I’d need to understand the worst-case-scenarios before doing it.
Obviously if a car is relatively low value, maybe one just self-insures and there’s no need for track insurance. But there is still liability associated with renting your car to someone who is injured as a result.
Maybe some of the attorneys will chime in.
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needmoregarage (07-23-2024)
07-23-2024, 07:23 AM
#20
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The only way I would do this is with a reliable PDK car and if I was also sitting right seat coaching. Get track insurance and charge somewhere in the $3-4k range and then it would make sense.
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needmoregarage (07-23-2024)
07-23-2024, 08:07 AM
#21
- liability to the owner for injury to renter while driving the car (due to accident or mechanical failure, whether or not the fault of the renter)
Seems like it could be complex. I don’t know if the liability insurance policies for track days would cover something like renting your car to someone. Not sure if personal liability would cover something like that. I’d need to understand the worst-case-scenarios before doing it.
Seems like it could be complex. I don’t know if the liability insurance policies for track days would cover something like renting your car to someone. Not sure if personal liability would cover something like that. I’d need to understand the worst-case-scenarios before doing it.
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needmoregarage (07-23-2024)
07-24-2024, 12:59 AM
#22
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at least two problems with this:
owner would want to be at track to oversee that car is not abused, or if mechanical issue.
car breaks and can't be used at owner's planned event. and limit use. rentals are for limited number of hours (not very many btw) from what I have seen.
owner would want to be at track to oversee that car is not abused, or if mechanical issue.
car breaks and can't be used at owner's planned event. and limit use. rentals are for limited number of hours (not very many btw) from what I have seen.
07-24-2024, 07:51 PM
#23
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So, first - love the idea, will put it on my phone and see if I can use it.
Another resource (just scroll down a few threads):
https://letsgotrackdays.com/
As you said - similar to Turo, which has a history in the USA with people renting high end cars - look at their contracts; how do they deal with US liability lawsuit bullsh!t?
I did a 3 day Skippy School at LS when I had business on the left coast. While I very much appreciated and valued the instruction, the main reason I did it was I got to spend 3 days at LS (never been there) without having to drag a car all the way across the country.
Whenever I am in Germany, I spend time at the Ring and rent from Jaco's Paddock. He has DTM race cars for rent. When I travel, I take a helmet and HANS, and want a car with a cage and 6-point when I am on track. In every car, he has whatever the most basic VBOX system is, which logs RPM and has video. This is a feature to the customer, but it also shows if you bust redline or have an accident. His agreements are for German law, but should be worth a look. If you rent a modern PDK / auto trans it is hard to blow up the engine. I like shifting, and (in a strange car) going into Foxhole trying for 4>5, very briefly did a 4>3 (oops...). Per the contract, I was charged a fair price for an engine teardown, they found no damage, so that was it. They are still my go-to car place at the Ring, unless they are sold out.
If your car is "THE PRECIOUS!!!" you would never rent it out. If it is one that you have bumped off a few barriers, you may have reached the place where renting it to fund a few more track weekends makes sense.
Kaizen at VIR
Kaizen does this.
Kaizen does this.
https://letsgotrackdays.com/
As you said - similar to Turo, which has a history in the USA with people renting high end cars - look at their contracts; how do they deal with US liability lawsuit bullsh!t?
I did a 3 day Skippy School at LS when I had business on the left coast. While I very much appreciated and valued the instruction, the main reason I did it was I got to spend 3 days at LS (never been there) without having to drag a car all the way across the country.
Whenever I am in Germany, I spend time at the Ring and rent from Jaco's Paddock. He has DTM race cars for rent. When I travel, I take a helmet and HANS, and want a car with a cage and 6-point when I am on track. In every car, he has whatever the most basic VBOX system is, which logs RPM and has video. This is a feature to the customer, but it also shows if you bust redline or have an accident. His agreements are for German law, but should be worth a look. If you rent a modern PDK / auto trans it is hard to blow up the engine. I like shifting, and (in a strange car) going into Foxhole trying for 4>5, very briefly did a 4>3 (oops...). Per the contract, I was charged a fair price for an engine teardown, they found no damage, so that was it. They are still my go-to car place at the Ring, unless they are sold out.
If your car is "THE PRECIOUS!!!" you would never rent it out. If it is one that you have bumped off a few barriers, you may have reached the place where renting it to fund a few more track weekends makes sense.
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07-25-2024, 03:44 PM
#24
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Thanks for all the input...excellent! I think the aspect of hitting a track day at a track you've always dreamed about driving is fantastic. I have been fortunate to live near some great tracks as I've moved around the country, but man would I love to hit Road America, COTA, or Sebing. This app could be the ticket for that sort of thing.
07-25-2024, 03:48 PM
#25
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at least two problems with this:
owner would want to be at track to oversee that car is not abused, or if mechanical issue.
car breaks and can't be used at owner's planned event. and limit use. rentals are for limited number of hours (not very many btw) from what I have seen.
owner would want to be at track to oversee that car is not abused, or if mechanical issue.
car breaks and can't be used at owner's planned event. and limit use. rentals are for limited number of hours (not very many btw) from what I have seen.
07-25-2024, 03:54 PM
#26
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Overall I think it’s a really interesting idea and I could definitely see doing an arrive-and-drive. I just wouldn’t rent out my own car. It falls under the “too precious” category (for me).
Just like you’ll never find my car on Turo. I might rent one from them, but would never join to put my own vehicle into their rental “pool”.
Just like you’ll never find my car on Turo. I might rent one from them, but would never join to put my own vehicle into their rental “pool”.
Last edited by needmoregarage; 07-25-2024 at 03:56 PM.
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JRitt@essex (07-30-2024)
07-25-2024, 06:29 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
Thanks for all the input...excellent! I think the aspect of hitting a track day at a track you've always dreamed about driving is fantastic. I have been fortunate to live near some great tracks as I've moved around the country, but man would I love to hit Road America, COTA, or Sebing. This app could be the ticket for that sort of thing.
07-28-2024, 06:14 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
Interesting idea. In this age of internet fame and bad judgment, though, I would be worried about a yahoo renting the car and causing absolute mayhem on the track, risking the car and everyone around them. Makes me picture a DE-version of “Squeeze Benz,” who reportedly sourced his high-end joyrides through Turo:
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...ested/5442968/
https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/loca...ested/5442968/
08-01-2024, 08:38 PM
#29
A few years back myself and two of my employees took my Miata out and beat on it for a day at VIR. I had a total blast and the car didn't miss a beat. I had about $4500 total into that car. 
I had just as much fun in that car as I've had in $100k cars, and I would have gladly rented it out to someone else. All I ever did was put oil in it and throw some $60 tires on it once in a while.
From what I've seen being in the track community for 20 years, many people start out with a very expensive street/track car, and ultimately end up with a considerably less expensive dedicated track car. They believe that their shiny new car will never get hurt, they try to keep every spec of dirt off it, etc. They eventually realize that it's extremely tough to keep a car pristine if its being tracked, no matter what preventative measures they take.
With the above said, I think everything in this discussion is relative to one's financial standing. I had one customer deliver us his 991 GT3 with saran wrap on the steering wheel, seat, and shifter because he was afraid it would get dirty. The next GT3 that came in was filthy, covered in stone chips, and had a cracked windshield...even though it was only 3 months old! Some of our wealthiest clients drop $400k cars at our shop and say, "Do whatever you like with it, I have three others." Others are terrified of us dinging their Hyundai.
It's all relative.
For me personally, I have more fun at the track in a $25k track rat than I do a pristine $100k road car. I feel like I can drive it harder, it's been prepped not to break, and these days I also really want a full cage and fire suppression around me. I could also care less about lap times and am more interested in just having fun, learning something, and possibly making some new friends at each track event. To me, that's what this sport/hobby is really all about. All fantasies of my becoming a racecar driver evaporated long ago, and I think I'm much better for it.
Anyway, thanks for the input gents. I will be sure to share all the feedback!
I had just as much fun in that car as I've had in $100k cars, and I would have gladly rented it out to someone else. All I ever did was put oil in it and throw some $60 tires on it once in a while.From what I've seen being in the track community for 20 years, many people start out with a very expensive street/track car, and ultimately end up with a considerably less expensive dedicated track car. They believe that their shiny new car will never get hurt, they try to keep every spec of dirt off it, etc. They eventually realize that it's extremely tough to keep a car pristine if its being tracked, no matter what preventative measures they take.
With the above said, I think everything in this discussion is relative to one's financial standing. I had one customer deliver us his 991 GT3 with saran wrap on the steering wheel, seat, and shifter because he was afraid it would get dirty. The next GT3 that came in was filthy, covered in stone chips, and had a cracked windshield...even though it was only 3 months old! Some of our wealthiest clients drop $400k cars at our shop and say, "Do whatever you like with it, I have three others." Others are terrified of us dinging their Hyundai.
It's all relative.For me personally, I have more fun at the track in a $25k track rat than I do a pristine $100k road car. I feel like I can drive it harder, it's been prepped not to break, and these days I also really want a full cage and fire suppression around me. I could also care less about lap times and am more interested in just having fun, learning something, and possibly making some new friends at each track event. To me, that's what this sport/hobby is really all about. All fantasies of my becoming a racecar driver evaporated long ago, and I think I'm much better for it.
Anyway, thanks for the input gents. I will be sure to share all the feedback!
