Geo

I'm going to try to get Bryan Watts to respond here as well. He drove in the FM pro series in the old cars.

If I had the cash, and I could fit my fat @$$ in one, I'd be in a FM in a NY minute. I've seen complete cars with spares between $20k and $25k. But I don't have that large a race car budget.

Nothing like an open wheel car.

TrackJunke

I am like you, I dont think my budget will stretch to 20-25k for a car at this point. I have to buy a truck and trailer also. I may be being a bit naive thinking I can race cheaply. I was thinking 4k for a truck, 1k for a trailer and 10-15k for a car. Then maybe budget 5k a year for racing expenses. You think this is ridiculous. I dont really know what kind of budget is necessary to race relatively competitively in something like IT, Spec Miata, or a Formula car of some sort.

Sam Lin

I don't know about your part of the country, and it's not even as "cool" as the Spec Miata, but locally, Spec RX7 is hugely popular, and is so cheap that you CAN be competitive on your stated budget.

Sam

prg

I'm in Oklahoma. I've been running at the local track (Hallett) in their local COMMA once a month series. Not sure how many pure FM races are in the southeast but in most parts of the country the FM's get a fair turnout in SCCA I believe.
So far my FM has been reliable. I put it into a tire wall and got out for about $1k for a new nose/wing and battery box. The FM is the main battle tank of the open wheel world. It is built much more stoutly than a Formula ford, continental, or atlantic.
If your interested in FM's a couple good resources are the star mazda (manufacturer) site and the FM forum.
http://www.starmazda.com/
http://p211.ezboard.com/bformulamazdaforum
Looking at your budget, a Formula Ford (1600 cc) is probably the open wheel car that would best match your disposable resources. The following site is dedicated to this class of car.
http://www.apexspeed.com/formula1600/
Hope this is of some help to you in your decision.

TrackJunke

Thank you very much for the info prg, I really appreciate it.

M758

I race 944-spec in arizona.
We have about 50 cars between Arizona and Southern California.

It is a spec series so mods are quite limited, but that means even top notch cars run 10-12k fully sorted. You can build a competitve car for 8k if you do the wrenching yourself. Cars about 2400 to 2500 lbs (2600 min with driver) and run basicly stock motors. You don't need a fancy engine built up or a fancy suspsension so you really can build it you back yard if you have basic mechanical skills. We run spec tires also to keep costs down and Toyo has offered up Toyo dollars for the top 3 places each race and also for final championship top 3 spots. Those winning offset the cost of the toyo's. Nice thing is a set of toyo runs about $600 and two sets will last on full season of racing.

Probably the best deal in racing a Porsche. BTW... Cars are about as fasts G-stock 911SC's and a littl faster than most Wreck me Otters and contact is very rare.

hrk

How about mixture of open wheel and street car.

NASA is in starting phases of sanctioning series for Lotus 7 copies. 5 different classes from original 70 hp to unlimited S2000 drivetrain or motorcycle cars.
Rules:
http://www.nasaproracing.com/rules/se7ens.pdf

And you can build your own car based in popular donors like RX-7, Toyota, Miata etc. and you can buy them in various states of assembly.
One supplier would be
www.championmotorcars.com
which can supply them with full welded cage already SCCA and NASA approved.

They should fit your budget, but class is too new to see whether it is good for racing.

hrk

MarkPcar

I headed down the Spec Miata path...

My primary focus is vintage racing in a 356 Roadster, but I wanted to add something more for the SCCA race weekends. I considered several different 911 based cars and ended up deciding I wanted something simple, fun and lower operating costs. Spec Miata was the answer - have you seen these things race? They are amazingly quick thru the turns!

Lots of guys drive there SM's to the track.

My $.02

pig4bill

Spec E30 started up last year and has about 8 cars, mostly around VA and NC. These are BMW 3 series cars from the 80's. The largest prep cost is in the safety equipment, cage, etc. They may not have enough races for you. Don't worry about run group size though, because they run with NASA, where they combine series into run groups. Speaking of NASA, they have some other budget series like Honda Challenge (Civics mostly) and CMC (Camaro Mustang Challenge). I've heard of used CMC cars for sale for well under $10k.

TrackJunke

pig4bill,

I saw the honda challenge. I do not want to be in FWD car. I also could not get myself to race something american (no offense to anyone who does).

The bmw e30 sounds like a nice car to race. I will have to look into those more. I could do bmcca club racing then with that too.

Adam Richman

Whereas you definately can find a good trailer deal for about 1k (gotta be careful about the axles on any used trailer though) and probably could find a tow vehicle for 4k (although you may be in for more money in the end on that), 10-15k for Spec Miata is actually on the cheap side.

By all means, you can very well build yourself an SM for 10 or so thousand dollars, the top 10ish cars where you will race (SEDiv) are easily over that 15k price tag. I know they go for anywhere from 18-22k and there have been one or two approaching 30k. Now is this "necessary?" No, of-course not. But it is something worth keeping in mind as it may end up as a barrier to your enjoyment.

As for the 5k a year running expenses, that is very much doable provided you are not doing any bodywork but it largely depends on what schedule you want to race. I'll say again, I think that if you want to race a RWD inexpensively with the SCCA, the ITA Miata is probably one of the best deals going right now. Miatas in general are very good on brakes and tires (far better than their FWD counterparts). They are faster than the SMs, cost less to build a front running car than SM and you are (I hate to say it) less likely to incur body damage (in that you are in a more open field of cars with different advantages/disadvantages).

Now I don't think an ITA Miata will ever set a lap record at Road Atlanta (LR @ 1:43), they are right there at VIR (2:19s), Kershaw (1:54s), Robling Road (depends on the day ) and even Lowes with a good drafting partner (1:28s).

Now if you want to run with NASA-SE/VA, you have other options as mentioned above - 44Cup, Spec-E30, Pro Sedan (equivalent to IT). I don't believe that CMC is running here on the east coast (AI/AIX is however but that's not remotely inexpensive IMO and you didn't want an American car anyway). I don't know how much backing the E30 series has right now but the 44Cup seems to have a pretty good draw in NASA-VA. I hope that they can pick up the same interest in NASA-SE as well. If so, that should be very comparable (cost to run/cost to build) to an IT car.

TrackJunke

Adam,

Thanks for the info. I think you are right about the spec miatas. I talked to a guy that probably did spend 30k on his spec miata to make it really competitive. I do not want to start out racing with a car that I have no chance in doing well in. What is the difference between and IT Miata and a spec miata? Would I be able to run the cars you mentioned in SCCA and NASA? I want to have a car that is can run with many different groups so I am not at a loss for races etc?

M758

Ha Ha,

In Az I can probably find a place to run my 944 vs other 944's 3-4 weekends per month in the "racing season" (Sept-May) and 1 per month in "Off Season" June- August if include races in so-cal.


Honestly 944-cup with an ITS 944 is probably pretty good. Sure the car is not ideal for ITS, but you can run and probably compete with most guys mid pack and can have lots of fun in 944 cup and win there. Plus beable to do many SCCA & NASA races.

TrackJunke

Adam,

I looked at a spec miata today for 12,900. The guy said he has replaced everything in the suspension and everything for 11k dollars. There is only 35k on the motor and he says it is very strong. No body damage. The car should be competitive. Probably not top 3 but up there with a good driver. My question to you is, do you think that this is the price range for a car like this? Also, could this be a competitive ITA car and what would I have to modify to run it in ITA?

Adam Richman

For the record, when I am talking about 18-22k and up to 30k to buy one, I mean buying one "built for you" by a reputable race shop. Buying an existing car off of someone, you are typically going to get a better deal. I think you typically see cars go for 60 cents on the dollar for buy vs. build but you have to be careful.

So, if you want my take on it ... a race car's value is the sum of its correct parts not that it has a logbook. Having said that, its always cheaper to buy vs. build. Buying the right car that is. Building a car when you don't know how you like a car set up and what you want it to do is an expensive journey irrespective of how cheap you start out - unless you are building to just get out there. Seems like eventually most folks don't like "just being out there" though.

So, what's the cage like? What's the wear like on the tranny? What's the bearing/hub wear? What's the value of the replacement items on the suspension if you aren't intending to run SM? SM runs a 15" wheel, ITA Miata runs a 14". SM has a minimum wheel weight of 13 pounds. Panasport 14x6 OE Miata wheels are sub 10lbs and they are perfectly legal for ITA (as are the Team Dynamics/Panasport 14x7s that are sub-13lbs too). SM's are in good shape if they are making over 110 whp, ITA Miatas make 125-130whp. Only 1990-1993 Miatae are eligible for ITA, the 1800 cc cars are in ITS. SM rules state you have to use the stock ring and pinion, ITA rules leave that open (and you'd probably want to check to see if stock is OK for the SEDiv tracks - assume there will be a difference in talking to guys that run SEDiv South vs. SEDiv North as there is a difference between what we - FFers - run typically). SM dictates your spring rate and anti roll bars - IT rules leave that open. You'd have to run the Miata R chin spoiler for airdam/spoiler in SM, in IT, that's open to what you want provided you meet the height and depth rules. In IT, you may also modify the ECU provided the casing remains OE. This is just a rough stab at it, not meant to be biblical.

Basically, do you want to buy a Spec Miata with a 35k original mile-motor and possibly a viscous limited slip (which may be fine for all I know) and who knows what kind of life expectancy on the driveline components? For me, the whole thing starts with the cage. There are only a few cage builders in the SE that I want in my car and there is absolutely no conceivable way that I would get into a race with a bolt-in caged car (but that's me). If this has that whoopa$$ cage, then you know, it might not be a bad starting point provided you find a place to sell off the Mazda Speed components you don't redily need to recoup the price (what I see as too much for what we're talking about here). But in general, around here $12k for an ITA car is just unheard of with anything less than a Sam Moore/David Bowles motor, Delta Group Motorsports/Robinson Racing cage, brand new transmission with a clutch type diff, 14x7 Panasports, ECU work, a lot of good spares and a lot of wins. To give you an example, my friend Alex sold his ITA CRX last year for something around 10-11k and this car a.) won the ProIT championship, b.) finished in the top 3 two years in a row at the ARRC and c.) had ONE race on a new IT prepped head and refreshed bottom end. It also had a Momo composite seat, a Delta Group 8pt cage, Delta Group header, an OPM limited slip differential, spherical bearing LCAs, offset delrin bushing rear UCAs, a set of KONI shortened and revalved shocks with two races on them, etc .....

Here's an example from IT.com/classifieds (comparative reference of what you could get for the money):
Basically, I would buy a $12,900 (or even more) ITA car but it would have to be a.) georgeous and b.) with the head off in impound at the ARRC (meaning it just won). I think you could probably get a winning Pro SM car for not too much more and with that, you'd know that it had a legacy to it. I am not dismissing the car you are looking at, it might be a great car but for what you are (being suggested by me) looking to do with the car, its just too much money for what's on it. I'd go to IT.com and look through the classifieds and see what you can find. Then before you buy ANY IT car, talk to folks that race with the seller and find out what you can from them - its often very good information that can change your perspective on things.

And I would also strongly consider what M758 is suggesting too. 44Cup could very well be a relatively inexpensive venture and depending on how you build it (have it built??), could be a PCA I Stock or ITS car. I don't know what the actual costs to build these cars are - you may want to talk to the folks that are doing well in this particular series and find out from them (or talk to those that are building these cars and see what their thoughts are). Upside on the 44Cup car is that you can run either (or both) I Stock, ITS and 44Cup (although as mentioned, these aren't that competetive in ITS around here). More upside is that it seems to me to be a rather popular series and if the SE gets as much interest as NASA-VA did, they are some pretty good fields.

The ITA Miata runs in NASA PS2 IIRC (but you'd want to check that - they changed the classing a couple years ago) and in SCCA it runs in the ProIT, SARRC, ECR (short enduros), Carolina Cup Pro Series. You can easily get out to a race every 3 weeks just in the SCCA.

In the end though, I'd have to say that a FWD car for ITA is the more popular choice and if its a Honda/Acura, that's ITA in ProIT, SARRC, ECR, CCPS and Honda Challenge. Lots of options with these little 4 cylinder cars (all of them, FF and FR) regardless of which way you go with it.

Very sorry for the assuredly over abundance of assumptions, overlooked, oversimplified and just plain old incorrect information here. Just opinions and I wouldn't swear to any of it. Best of luck.