Hoosier S04 Product Bulletin
05-28-2004, 01:12 PM
#17
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Being an "amateur" and currently on a very thin (see"non-existant") budget I have to agree that a certain level of trust must be given to the tire company, in that they will produce a tire that will not only perform but have a reasonable service life.
Daytona streched my resources to the absolute limit and the last $1000.00 I spent was on SO4's just a little frustrating coming home and finding that I need to find more "tire money" in the budget.
Hey, maybe the company that makes "Butt Paste" would like to sponsor a car on the Club Race level. For those of you that don't follow NASCAR "Butt Paste" (a diaper rash cream) is a new sponsor for a Nextel Cup Car.
Daytona streched my resources to the absolute limit and the last $1000.00 I spent was on SO4's just a little frustrating coming home and finding that I need to find more "tire money" in the budget.
Hey, maybe the company that makes "Butt Paste" would like to sponsor a car on the Club Race level. For those of you that don't follow NASCAR "Butt Paste" (a diaper rash cream) is a new sponsor for a Nextel Cup Car.
05-28-2004, 05:49 PM
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I partially agree with Geoffs, we need to take some responsibility, BUT the problem is that Hoosier did not make it clear exactly how different this tire is from the S03. Since i am a one man race team i RELIED on the information given to me: 3 deg of neg camber and a couple of pounds more pressure (45 psi in my case), and as always it would be good to heat cycle them and let them sit for at least 24 hrs. I did all that, and corded them in 4 sessions. Had they said UPFRONT "we strongly advise you to thouroughly re-evaluate your setup" (Not good from a marketing POV) their wouldn't have been a problem for me, i would have bought one last set of S03s and switched to S04s during a DE or test & tune when i have plenty of opportunity to measure and tweak....Timing is everything, telling us after the fact is not helpful. BTW as i noted in a previous post in April they published recommendations for using S04s...but in my case (944T) the recommendations appear to be pretty much the same as for the S03s so i assumed that they'd at least be "close" as far as car setup goes.
05-28-2004, 08:27 PM
#19
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Originally posted by Al P.
Hey, maybe the company that makes "Butt Paste" would like to sponsor a car on the Club Race level. For those of you that don't follow NASCAR "Butt Paste" (a diaper rash cream) is a new sponsor for a Nextel Cup Car.
Hey, maybe the company that makes "Butt Paste" would like to sponsor a car on the Club Race level. For those of you that don't follow NASCAR "Butt Paste" (a diaper rash cream) is a new sponsor for a Nextel Cup Car.
05-28-2004, 08:38 PM
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Just in case anyone is getting fooled by the 'may require a different setup' bulletin, consider the following:
Initally Hoosier's recommendation was that we should start with the optimized S03 setup -- it would be close for the S04. Now they say without really saying it that the optimum setup will be totally different. Nor do they suggest, even the most general terms, what that setup might be.
A great number of people are having problems with the tires. I have to believe that some of these people are fast drivers and some are not. Some of their cars are set up well and some are not. Some of them are scientific about their tire care, some are not. The one constant is that S03s worked for all these people, and now S04s don't work for any of them.
I shelled out $1150 for a new set of S04s at the Rennsport Reunion at Daytona. Bob Woodman Tires gave some totally insane recommendations regarding the tire pressures. I knew he was covering his *** (and I didn't fault him for doing so) so I ignored the recommendations. I used my optimized S03 set up and pressures. Guess what: the tires are fast and handled great.
Too bad the rear were 95% corded after two sessions. I caught the bad wear just in time and was able to flip the tires on the rims for the next event: Laguna Seca.
I ran the tires for 5 sessions, with small patches of cords showing on the outsides (formerly the insides). The tires worked well and were fast and predictable. I found them to work well with exactly the same setup as used for S03s.
What I learned:
You cannot even approach wearing out the center 70% of the tire before the inside cords. I'll bet that cars with street camber settings and body roll will cord the outside just as fast as race cars cord the inside.
More load = more wear. Heavy cars driven fast have the worst wear rate.
Decreasing negative camber does NOT fix the problem. It does reduce the load on the inner sidewall, which means the inside won't cord quite as fast. You will go slower with less negative camber than your optimized S03 setup.
The right pressure appears to be the same as S03s. I run at the very highest end of the pressure range, and I noticed that the grip falls off once the pressure get too high even more than with an S03.
My prediction:
Hoosier will eventually suggest that we run close to zero camber and hot pressures of over 50 lbs. These band-aids will fix the problem. This setup will produce lap times far slower than S03s on an optimized setup.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports
Initally Hoosier's recommendation was that we should start with the optimized S03 setup -- it would be close for the S04. Now they say without really saying it that the optimum setup will be totally different. Nor do they suggest, even the most general terms, what that setup might be.
A great number of people are having problems with the tires. I have to believe that some of these people are fast drivers and some are not. Some of their cars are set up well and some are not. Some of them are scientific about their tire care, some are not. The one constant is that S03s worked for all these people, and now S04s don't work for any of them.
I shelled out $1150 for a new set of S04s at the Rennsport Reunion at Daytona. Bob Woodman Tires gave some totally insane recommendations regarding the tire pressures. I knew he was covering his *** (and I didn't fault him for doing so) so I ignored the recommendations. I used my optimized S03 set up and pressures. Guess what: the tires are fast and handled great.
Too bad the rear were 95% corded after two sessions. I caught the bad wear just in time and was able to flip the tires on the rims for the next event: Laguna Seca.
I ran the tires for 5 sessions, with small patches of cords showing on the outsides (formerly the insides). The tires worked well and were fast and predictable. I found them to work well with exactly the same setup as used for S03s.
What I learned:
You cannot even approach wearing out the center 70% of the tire before the inside cords. I'll bet that cars with street camber settings and body roll will cord the outside just as fast as race cars cord the inside.
More load = more wear. Heavy cars driven fast have the worst wear rate.
Decreasing negative camber does NOT fix the problem. It does reduce the load on the inner sidewall, which means the inside won't cord quite as fast. You will go slower with less negative camber than your optimized S03 setup.
The right pressure appears to be the same as S03s. I run at the very highest end of the pressure range, and I noticed that the grip falls off once the pressure get too high even more than with an S03.
My prediction:
Hoosier will eventually suggest that we run close to zero camber and hot pressures of over 50 lbs. These band-aids will fix the problem. This setup will produce lap times far slower than S03s on an optimized setup.
Chris Cervelli
Premier Motorsports
05-28-2004, 09:38 PM
#21
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I find it very strange from a tire design point of view that these tires have such a short life. They seem to be quite different in their construction and were touted to last longer than the S03's. Given the new construction one would think this would hold true. Something seems to be very amiss with these tires. I hope that Hoosier can fix this problem and give us better setup data.
Cheers, James
Cheers, James
05-28-2004, 10:12 PM
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Hmmm..... are we crazy?
As a sanity check, i did some googling and checking other boards and have not been able to find ANY threads on this topic. Does anybody else know of any other group of disgruntled Hoosier users?
....or as usual are we just leading the way
As a sanity check, i did some googling and checking other boards and have not been able to find ANY threads on this topic. Does anybody else know of any other group of disgruntled Hoosier users?
....or as usual are we just leading the way
05-31-2004, 08:31 PM
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Chris/Premier - once again you are correct with your comments.
I agree with Brian, Al, and "Wannabefaster" in that as amateurs its not our job when we're paying $1,000/set to help Hoosier figure out chassis set-up. If they want this kind of club R&D support, then they can GIVE US THE TIRES FOR FREE, and we'll be the "guinnea pigs" and help them with chassis information. Its a fair trade and one that Goodyear and others do with professional racers. However, if I'm shelling out a grand, I want the tires to work on my car -- or at least give me the set-up information I need to make them work!
I think Geoffrey's comments may have been meant well, but are over-reaching. Yes, as club racers we are a "one man race team" (so we need to know a little about every aspect of the racing game) -- however, because we're a 1-man operation with limited funds we rely even more upon manufacturer representations, product testing, and reputation.
If Geoffrey would re-visit the Hoosier release (http://www.hoosierracingtire.com/TcT.pdf) it might be worth noting that other than wheel sizes and heat cycling info, the only set-up recommendations provided are a minimum of -2.5 degrees camber (-3 degrees recommended) and tire pressure guidance by car weight. However, given that so many tires are cording on the inside, it seems that adding negative camber will only amplify the problem. I can't believe that Hoosier is recommending -3 degrees.
Now, had this information been available in January/February (instead of April) when guys like me bought our SO4's it would have been really helpful. But the bigger problems are this:
(1) Hoosier apparently didn't have clue what the recommended tire set-up requirements were for this tire when they released it in January because none of the Hoosier retailers received this info -- hence, they were giving their customers a range of wild and inaccurate recommendations (just read all the different threads on the 3 different SO4 cording topics posted on Rennlist). The best thing my Hoosier retailer could tell is to run them "'about 1-2 pounds less than the SO3's" which is inconsistent with the information Hoosier has released in 4/04, which suggests the opposite.
(2) Hoosier is not taking responsibility for the manufacturing defects in these tires as Hoosier retailers are not being allowed to swap tires (at no cost) for customers with defective SO4s. As the other guys have pointed out, if there were any significant chassis set-up changes required to run the SO4's then we (as customers) should have been advised of this prior to purchase so we could factor this into our purchase decision. Further, since most of us were running SO3's, it is even more important that we be given this kind of information PRIOR to finding out the "hard way"on the track.
(3) Even the release posted on Hoosier's website talks about damaging the outside tread if tire pressures are dropped below the recommended range but this is opposite of where the cording is occuring (inside edge). All comments regarding excessive tire wear and tread damage are relating to under-inflation -- nothing about changing chassis set-up from the SO3's.
Chris also points out something I showed my Hoosier retailer when I towed my car/trailer back from Laguna Seca with my old SO3's on the car. In the Laguna Race, I had literally wore the SO3's down bald where the wear indicator channels were gone -- there was no tread left. Guess what? Not a sign of un-even wear anywhere on any of the 4 tires. So, it was the kind of indisputable evidence that begs the question "How could I wear the SO3's down to baseline rubber beyond the wear indicators and they are worn perfectly even across the tire, yet I can't run the SO4's more than 1/3 into the tread depth on the same car with same chassis set-up without cording them?"
How does Hoosier explain the problem is with my (or your) car and not their tire construction?
We've all rant & raved on this probably enough, so let's simply share information as to what we're finding to be the best alternative. So far, looks like MPSC or Proxes are getting most of the votes.
I agree with Brian, Al, and "Wannabefaster" in that as amateurs its not our job when we're paying $1,000/set to help Hoosier figure out chassis set-up. If they want this kind of club R&D support, then they can GIVE US THE TIRES FOR FREE, and we'll be the "guinnea pigs" and help them with chassis information. Its a fair trade and one that Goodyear and others do with professional racers. However, if I'm shelling out a grand, I want the tires to work on my car -- or at least give me the set-up information I need to make them work!
I think Geoffrey's comments may have been meant well, but are over-reaching. Yes, as club racers we are a "one man race team" (so we need to know a little about every aspect of the racing game) -- however, because we're a 1-man operation with limited funds we rely even more upon manufacturer representations, product testing, and reputation.
If Geoffrey would re-visit the Hoosier release (http://www.hoosierracingtire.com/TcT.pdf) it might be worth noting that other than wheel sizes and heat cycling info, the only set-up recommendations provided are a minimum of -2.5 degrees camber (-3 degrees recommended) and tire pressure guidance by car weight. However, given that so many tires are cording on the inside, it seems that adding negative camber will only amplify the problem. I can't believe that Hoosier is recommending -3 degrees.
Now, had this information been available in January/February (instead of April) when guys like me bought our SO4's it would have been really helpful. But the bigger problems are this:
(1) Hoosier apparently didn't have clue what the recommended tire set-up requirements were for this tire when they released it in January because none of the Hoosier retailers received this info -- hence, they were giving their customers a range of wild and inaccurate recommendations (just read all the different threads on the 3 different SO4 cording topics posted on Rennlist). The best thing my Hoosier retailer could tell is to run them "'about 1-2 pounds less than the SO3's" which is inconsistent with the information Hoosier has released in 4/04, which suggests the opposite.
(2) Hoosier is not taking responsibility for the manufacturing defects in these tires as Hoosier retailers are not being allowed to swap tires (at no cost) for customers with defective SO4s. As the other guys have pointed out, if there were any significant chassis set-up changes required to run the SO4's then we (as customers) should have been advised of this prior to purchase so we could factor this into our purchase decision. Further, since most of us were running SO3's, it is even more important that we be given this kind of information PRIOR to finding out the "hard way"on the track.
(3) Even the release posted on Hoosier's website talks about damaging the outside tread if tire pressures are dropped below the recommended range but this is opposite of where the cording is occuring (inside edge). All comments regarding excessive tire wear and tread damage are relating to under-inflation -- nothing about changing chassis set-up from the SO3's.
Chris also points out something I showed my Hoosier retailer when I towed my car/trailer back from Laguna Seca with my old SO3's on the car. In the Laguna Race, I had literally wore the SO3's down bald where the wear indicator channels were gone -- there was no tread left. Guess what? Not a sign of un-even wear anywhere on any of the 4 tires. So, it was the kind of indisputable evidence that begs the question "How could I wear the SO3's down to baseline rubber beyond the wear indicators and they are worn perfectly even across the tire, yet I can't run the SO4's more than 1/3 into the tread depth on the same car with same chassis set-up without cording them?"
How does Hoosier explain the problem is with my (or your) car and not their tire construction?
We've all rant & raved on this probably enough, so let's simply share information as to what we're finding to be the best alternative. So far, looks like MPSC or Proxes are getting most of the votes.
06-04-2004, 10:53 PM
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If you guys want SO3 Hoosiers, Bobby Archer German Motor Works (Ft. Worth, TX) can still get them. I'm told that Hoosier hasn't officially killed the SO3's (yet) until they are positive the SO4's are being adopted by everyone.....looks like SO3's might be around a bit.
Bobby Archer's available at 817 877 1772, ask for AJ.
Bobby Archer's available at 817 877 1772, ask for AJ.
06-05-2004, 04:23 PM
#28
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I just returned from a BMW club race at Mid Ohio. Some of the faster racers were using the new Hoosiers. I spoke to one who said that he needed to use 50+lbs, and had to heat cycle them with 3-4 laps, and then let them sit for at least 24 hrs. But, having done this, he has not had the cording issues that he had with his first set. He also said that after he followed this procedure, he was faster than with the old design.
BTW, I just had my fastest time at MO (the track is faster with the more abrasive surface treatment on the concrete patches) with my 22nd heat cycle on my MPSCs! It is a no brainer.
Chuck
BTW, I just had my fastest time at MO (the track is faster with the more abrasive surface treatment on the concrete patches) with my 22nd heat cycle on my MPSCs! It is a no brainer.
Chuck
06-05-2004, 09:41 PM
#29
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Incredibly, the Hoosier guys at the Mid-America PCA club race are quite willing to sell S04s to "mount and race". They don't mention anything about Hoosier bulletins, they say nothing about heat cycling, and so on. I'm sure that if I asked they'd tell me, but so long as I play ignorant they seem quite willing to sell them.
The PCA officials at the race did warn everyone about Hoosiers, and a few folks in the meeting apparently hadn't heard about the issues. My friends have joked that we need to have some "Hoosier Tires R&D" stickers made up...
I've been running RA-1s and MSPCs with great success this weekend. They might be a bit slower overall than the S04s, but I'll take peace of mind and longevity until Hoosier decides to get its act together.
The PCA officials at the race did warn everyone about Hoosiers, and a few folks in the meeting apparently hadn't heard about the issues. My friends have joked that we need to have some "Hoosier Tires R&D" stickers made up...
I've been running RA-1s and MSPCs with great success this weekend. They might be a bit slower overall than the S04s, but I'll take peace of mind and longevity until Hoosier decides to get its act together.
06-06-2004, 09:10 AM
#30
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I'm curious...what did people do when the R3S03s were launched? Did Hoosier publish a bulletin that gave any more information that we currently have on the R3S04?
I don't think the Bulletin was intended to offer details - it's simply an "attention getter" to other documents that offer some guidance on to best use the tires. Beyond what is published in http://www.hoosierracingtire.com/TcT.pdf what should Hoosier be offering? I'm scratching my head on this because every car is a bit different so I'm not sure what we carn reasonably expect them to provide.
My plan is to take my new 04s to an open track day at Putnam on 6/18 and take a number of short runs - I'll check tread depth & tire temps across th tires after each and am optimistic (perhaps blindly) that I'll figure it out.
I don't think the Bulletin was intended to offer details - it's simply an "attention getter" to other documents that offer some guidance on to best use the tires. Beyond what is published in http://www.hoosierracingtire.com/TcT.pdf what should Hoosier be offering? I'm scratching my head on this because every car is a bit different so I'm not sure what we carn reasonably expect them to provide.
My plan is to take my new 04s to an open track day at Putnam on 6/18 and take a number of short runs - I'll check tread depth & tire temps across th tires after each and am optimistic (perhaps blindly) that I'll figure it out.
