Max Verstappen Sim Racing
05-13-2023, 05:15 PM
#16
Nordschleife Master
There is a reason I can do a 0:54 lap at Lime Rock but can't get anywhere close with the exact same car on iRacing.
You can summon Niki Lauda with a Ouiji board and he will tell you the same thing. Or maybe I need to spend $50k on a sim because I only spent about $10k
You can summon Niki Lauda with a Ouiji board and he will tell you the same thing. Or maybe I need to spend $50k on a sim because I only spent about $10k
I tried some really high end motion sims (50-100k) and universally hated them. Felt more like a gimmick that a real aid.
05-13-2023, 05:20 PM
#17
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Bingo.
Most folks who practice, motion or not, on the GT4 and GT3 Cup cars in iRacing are a lot quicker in the sim than in real life. I constantly have to remind people of that when they get to the track...
Most folks who practice, motion or not, on the GT4 and GT3 Cup cars in iRacing are a lot quicker in the sim than in real life. I constantly have to remind people of that when they get to the track...
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mlct (05-27-2023)
05-13-2023, 05:23 PM
#18
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So you are saying that sitting in a static sim, or even a sim where there is vibration, is the same as driving an actual car where you get feedback from your senses? Are you out of your mind? If drivers aren't memorizing where to brake, turn and accelerate than what other feedback is there in a static sim? Also, I have the rumble thing on my sim setup, and sure it gives some feedback, but I don't feel the G loading of the car through my a$$. That is what helps me drive.
Unlike many, but not all drivers, I don't necessarily have markers for my braking and turn-in points. I don't "brake at the broken tree" and "turn where the armco ends." I take it all in at once, and there are plenty of others, including pro drivers who do the same. There is a reason I can do a 0:54 lap at Lime Rock but can't get anywhere close with the exact same car on iRacing.
You can summon Niki Lauda with a Ouiji board and he will tell you the same thing. Or maybe I need to spend $50k on a sim because I only spent about $10k
Unlike many, but not all drivers, I don't necessarily have markers for my braking and turn-in points. I don't "brake at the broken tree" and "turn where the armco ends." I take it all in at once, and there are plenty of others, including pro drivers who do the same. There is a reason I can do a 0:54 lap at Lime Rock but can't get anywhere close with the exact same car on iRacing.
You can summon Niki Lauda with a Ouiji board and he will tell you the same thing. Or maybe I need to spend $50k on a sim because I only spent about $10k
we use our sims a lot for race preparation and it goes way beyond what you described.
You don’t have to believe it…ignorance is bliss sometimes!!!!
05-13-2023, 05:32 PM
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05-13-2023, 05:35 PM
#20
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So you are saying that sitting in a static sim, or even a sim where there is vibration, is the same as driving an actual car where you get feedback from your senses? Are you out of your mind? If drivers aren't memorizing where to brake, turn and accelerate than what other feedback is there in a static sim?
Unlike many, but not all drivers, I don't necessarily have markers for my braking and turn-in points. I don't "brake at the broken tree" and "turn where the armco ends." I take it all in at once, and there are plenty of others, including pro drivers who do the same.
There is a reason I can do a 0:54 lap at Lime Rock but can't get anywhere close with the exact same car on iRacing.
Unlike many, but not all drivers, I don't necessarily have markers for my braking and turn-in points. I don't "brake at the broken tree" and "turn where the armco ends." I take it all in at once, and there are plenty of others, including pro drivers who do the same.
There is a reason I can do a 0:54 lap at Lime Rock but can't get anywhere close with the exact same car on iRacing.
I can relate that your cues to determine your track position (whether you're good to go with the next control input) are more global, not as individual and detailed (although you probably use those more subconsciously than you think).
Most pro drivers use much more than their butt-gyro to tell if they are in trouble or not.
Most can sense rate of change of yaw simply by a lateral shift in their sight picture that is more than they expect, which is why the graphics card and refresh rate on the monitors make a big difference.
Not only that, they can tell the rate that it begins and they can track the change in the rate of change.
Many are able to do this on a static sim as well, hence a lot of front line e-racing performances and some very good testing feedback from pros and ams in <$10K static sims.
There is NO motion rig anywhere that can duplicate the forces of a real car on a real track. Instead, motion is used as additional cues to allow the driver to know what is going to happen, before and during the time it's happening.
For some people like me, most lower end motion ($100K or less) actually hurts more than helps, because there is clunky mass responding that injects latency so that my eyes see something happening at a different time than I feel it.
Different strokes for different folks, but sims do work for a lot of people. So much so that they've nearly ubiquitous in pro racing.
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ParadiseGT3 (05-13-2023)
05-13-2023, 05:36 PM
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05-13-2023, 06:17 PM
#23
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Insult noted but I was just correcting false information here. I am relating my real life experience in a professional racing series with a professional racing driver whose Sim racing team races against Max Vs redline racing.
we use our sims a lot for race preparation and it goes way beyond what you described.
You don’t have to believe it…ignorance is bliss sometimes!!!!
we use our sims a lot for race preparation and it goes way beyond what you described.
You don’t have to believe it…ignorance is bliss sometimes!!!!
Its not "false information" because I had this same exact conversation with an IMSA driver who I used as a coach last year and he said he felt the same exact way. What we have in common is he also doesn't use references around the track. Perhaps that is what separates those who benefit more from sims and those who benefit less. I'l also add that this coach was a huge data junkie and we interpreted every peak and valley from my data at length. He is not what I would describe as a "seat of his pants driver" at all.
I can understand your challenges completely, but everyone is different. Most people cue off visual shifts, motion or not.
I can relate that your cues to determine your track position (whether you're good to go with the next control input) are more global, not as individual and detailed (although you probably use those more subconsciously than you think).
Most pro drivers use much more than their butt-gyro to tell if they are in trouble or not.
Most can sense rate of change of yaw simply by a lateral shift in their sight picture that is more than they expect, which is why the graphics card and refresh rate on the monitors make a big difference.
Not only that, they can tell the rate that it begins and they can track the change in the rate of change.
Many are able to do this on a static sim as well, hence a lot of front line e-racing performances and some very good testing feedback from pros and ams in <$10K static sims.
There is NO motion rig anywhere that can duplicate the forces of a real car on a real track. Instead, motion is used as additional cues to allow the driver to know what is going to happen, before and during the time it's happening.
For some people like me, most lower end motion ($100K or less) actually hurts more than helps, because there is clunky mass responding that injects latency so that my eyes see something happening at a different time than I feel it.
Different strokes for different folks, but sims do work for a lot of people. So much so that they've nearly ubiquitous in pro racing.
I can relate that your cues to determine your track position (whether you're good to go with the next control input) are more global, not as individual and detailed (although you probably use those more subconsciously than you think).
Most pro drivers use much more than their butt-gyro to tell if they are in trouble or not.
Most can sense rate of change of yaw simply by a lateral shift in their sight picture that is more than they expect, which is why the graphics card and refresh rate on the monitors make a big difference.
Not only that, they can tell the rate that it begins and they can track the change in the rate of change.
Many are able to do this on a static sim as well, hence a lot of front line e-racing performances and some very good testing feedback from pros and ams in <$10K static sims.
There is NO motion rig anywhere that can duplicate the forces of a real car on a real track. Instead, motion is used as additional cues to allow the driver to know what is going to happen, before and during the time it's happening.
For some people like me, most lower end motion ($100K or less) actually hurts more than helps, because there is clunky mass responding that injects latency so that my eyes see something happening at a different time than I feel it.
Different strokes for different folks, but sims do work for a lot of people. So much so that they've nearly ubiquitous in pro racing.
I'm not saying people don't benefit from sim - I'm saying that different people learn from them differently, and in the absence of sensory input beyond just sight, people have to be memorizing the track. If visual is the only thing left what else can it be? I'm also certain I use visual cues going into big braking zones.
Lastly, I was at VIR for the first time two years ago and used the simulator to learn the track. It was very good for muscle memory and helped me get up to speed much quicker. That being said, the sim just could not prepare me for the elevation changes, so for that part of the learning process I still had work to do once I got to the track.
Last edited by LuigiVampa; 05-13-2023 at 06:19 PM.
05-13-2023, 06:44 PM
#24
Many are able to do this on a static sim as well, hence a lot of front line e-racing performances and some very good testing feedback from pros and ams in <$10K static sims.
There is NO motion rig anywhere that can duplicate the forces of a real car on a real track. Instead, motion is used as additional cues to allow the driver to know what is going to happen, before and during the time it's happening.
For some people like me, most lower end motion ($100K or less) actually hurts more than helps, because there is clunky mass responding that injects latency so that my eyes see something happening at a different time than I feel it.
Different strokes for different folks, but sims do work for a lot of people. So much so that they've nearly ubiquitous in pro racing.
There is NO motion rig anywhere that can duplicate the forces of a real car on a real track. Instead, motion is used as additional cues to allow the driver to know what is going to happen, before and during the time it's happening.
For some people like me, most lower end motion ($100K or less) actually hurts more than helps, because there is clunky mass responding that injects latency so that my eyes see something happening at a different time than I feel it.
Different strokes for different folks, but sims do work for a lot of people. So much so that they've nearly ubiquitous in pro racing.
Think my eyes pick up on pending oversteer, for example, right about simultaneous with the yaw. But my vision works best at GT car pace, and I can't get up to speed with any car beyond about LMP2. (Merc F1 car I just get a headache, actually.)
The perception of elevation change at various tracks, pitch & yaw, very fine movements of the chassis make the difference for me. When the chassis has cut out a couple of times on me mid-session with the rest of the simulation continuing, feels like I'm experiencing partial paralysis or something... Find the motion immersive and the sim experience very much lacking without.
05-13-2023, 11:55 PM
#25
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Lastly, I was at VIR for the first time two years ago and used the simulator to learn the track. It was very good for muscle memory and helped me get up to speed much quicker. That being said, the sim just could not prepare me for the elevation changes, so for that part of the learning process I still had work to do once I got to the track.
05-26-2023, 10:14 AM
#26
Drifting
The video below is a short segment about sim racing that is part of a longer David Coulthard interview with Max. The whole discussion is pretty interesting, but particularly that Max just doesn't show up on iRacing and be fast -- he personally puts in around 50 hours of work to prep for iRacing 24-hour events.
Last edited by peterp; 05-26-2023 at 11:30 AM. Reason: Coulthard, not Webber
05-26-2023, 11:00 AM
#27
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The video below is a short segment about sim racing that is part of a longer Mark Webber interview with Max. The whole discussion is pretty interesting, but particularly that Max just doesn't show up on iRacing and be fast -- he personally puts in around 50 hours of work to prep for iRacing 24-hour events.
David Couthard and Jos Verstappen shaking their heads. Love it!
05-26-2023, 01:50 PM
#29
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Interesting and thanks for posting. I understand Max also installed a SIM in his private jet and is on it when traveling on race weekends. How things have changed. I remember Michael Schumacher had gym equipment on his private jet and would workout whilst traveling to different destinations.
05-26-2023, 02:24 PM
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