Yellow996

Why does the PCAClubracing.org website STILL show the SP Enduro Results as "Pending Review"?

winders

Did you read this thread?

Yellow996

Yes, I lived to tell the tale.

Pending Review five days after the race? The Fed makes quicker decisions and they're late by at least four years.

winders

An all volunteer group is responsible for reviewing the incidents. They are all over the country and real life gets in the way. Finally, it is a bureaucracy!

NaroEscape

I think this is the part most people miss. On Monday when all the racers go back to work in their “real lives”, so do all the officials. They are volunteering their weekends to allow us to race. They all have flights to catch and trips home planned in advance so they can’t exactly stay late. And on a weekend with lots of incidents, it takes time for everyone to review what they know and info they have.

IMO it’s better that they’re taking the time to make sure it’s right vs. making quick decisions without all the information available.

Yellow996

Good point. I was not aware that results could be changed after we pack up for the weekend. My main sports growing up were football and baseball where when the game is over, it's over.

ProCoach

While I agree with Bob’s post, I still think if the guidelines are clear, the process is streamlined and the penalties are consistent, the resolution for most single or two car incidents should be able to be concluded quickly and efficiently, by the end of the weekend.

It’s generally only complex or multi car incidents that may require some digging and collection of video from multiple cars.

My personal experience is that delaying the resolution and dragging the deliberations out too long can make for some very inconsistent penalties, as stewards and drivers second guess themselves.

At Watkins Glen several years ago, a serious incident in the Esses deemed an egregious error by another incredibly well thought of and experienced professional coach, his team and the stewards at the event was reversed at the end of the weekend and upheld on appeal by the offending driver.

I received video from three drivers, data from two and it was clear as day what happened. I think the end result should be KISS, keep it simple. Get it done…

Musche

I believe the T&S guys are reviewing to make sure cars that were in the pits during the red flag were placed properly. During the red, RaceHero had the clock still running and RaceMonitor had the race clock stopped. In SPB for example, the top 4 cars in the results were in the pits and far down in the order prior to the melee and had the ultimate "lucky dog". But when the clock stopped during the red it gets a bit tricky. Couple that with a double yellow, red, black, double yellow and reorder, lineup and stop at T1 behind the pace car after crossing the start finish and then back to green, it makes my head dizzy. Not sure if they were held until the field went by and took the green but I don't think so. This may have resulted in a short pit stop if they were on track. The lap charts on RaceHero for the top 4 SPB cars have one less non-timed lap than the cars that were leading. I don't envy Roland and the T&S crew trying to figure this one out.

tgsmith4845

Great point, Jason. That’s one of the items under discussion.

tgsmith4845

Excellent points on this thread about many items that racers (members) would like to see improved or just changed. I can honestly say that PCA really does want to hear those member comments. You’d be amazed at how racers’ comments have helped shape our racing procedures and rules over the last few years. As much as I like reading Rennlist, emailing PCA CR is a more effective way of submitting comments.

Re passing rules, read the guidelines that Randy Pobst and Terry Earwood put together. I think BMW, SCCA and a few other organizations are using them now. They discuss the ins and outs of passing, and why a passer needs to position the car in the passer’s field of view. Stay out of the Vortex of Danger. Good stuff, which might be useful.

Re 13/13 rule. Fairly binary. PM me and I’ll give my personal views.

consistency is what PCA CR always strives for.

LuigiVampa

Peter,

Respectfully, I am going to weigh my blip of experience against your vast experience, and disagree.

I think race stewards are human and the variations between rulings from race to race are a problem. Formula 1 teams have thousands of pages of rules, and lawyers specifically to interpret those racing rules, and there is still ambiguity. I am NOT advocating anything close to that at all!

At Summit Point I was called to the stewards because they said I did something wrong. The something wrong that I did was what another steward said was the correct thing at a WGI race several years ago.

In another incident, during the Summit enduro race I was in pits when the red flag was thrown. We asked one of the PCA blue shirts if the clock still kept going on my pit stop. We were told yes and happy we got the "lucky dog". Luckily, Pete Dubussmann came over and told me that was incorrect and we believed him! Thank you Pete!

I also believe that all or nothing rules, where even the slightest of contact yields a 13, is the wrong way to go. I started racing under those rules and feel more comfortable that when all the cars squeeze into the first turn a slight "racing incident tap" isn't going to destroy someone's day. Will that yield more aggressive driving? That is for the stewards to control and that is where judgment comes into play. Again, to compare with F1, the stewards are much more lenient with first lap contact than they are later in the race. There is a logical reason for that.

The simple truth is you cannot have consistency without having clearly defined rules and stewards shouldn't be making up these rules on the fly each race weekend. At the very least the important rules should be laid out.

Again, I am not advocating hundreds of pages of race rules, but something as simple as how fast a pace car goes, and when you can pass them, should be in the rule book and it isn't even mentioned. While being wary of mission creep, I do think we need a little bit more clarity.

OK - I will put on my race suit and helmet so I can take the flames!

38D

I agree a tap shouldn’t result in a 13, but there should be any special rules for the 1st lap. If you make contact that is more than a rub out, someone should get a 13 IMO. A run out is not a destroyed bumper or a fender that needs to be replaced. Somehow these are occasionally let slide now.

There used to be a rule about a car’s appearance. Walk around the paddock now and you see a lot of dented cars. SPB is particularly egregious. If we started forcing people to fix damage or not be allowed on the grid, a lot of this would go away real fast.

I still can’t believe that a**hat tried to pass Jason on the way into the pits. That was just ridiculous.

ProCoach

FIFY

ProCoach

Tim, the best part is that I think threads like this reinforce to all how tough this stewarding job is!

My hat is off to you and the rest who volunteer their time and effort to do a tough job where sometimes, no one comes away happy! The trick is do they come out knowing more, and I think PCA stewards by and large do a good job of that.

Your willingness to read, race, serve as a steward and engage with the RL population to me is fantastic, and exemplary.

Thank you for all your work, along with the other volunteer officials.

Here's Randy!


Start the next one at 6:59

Der ABT

Man take a break from rennlist for a minute and you miss out....
enjoying the talk so far.