You're right. Also, the "personalities" of specific regions can change dramatically when different people get into leadership positions.

I will say this: I was totally floored at the comment made to me that I relayed above

 

When it's a club like PCA, the idea that the participants are "customers" has always rubbed me the wrong way. I've held a lot of positions in PCA and it's a club. It's club members that are in the event, not customers. Groups that are for profit like Chin, Hooked on Driving, etc, have customers. PCA has members. It's probably a peculiarity to me, but I've always viewed the events as something that I am a part of, not juts buying into.

 

Matt R^ I don’t disagree in general. Keep in mind that the HPDE that my specific region hosts are open to all marques. So while we have many PCA members in attendance, we also have many who are not Porsche owners/members.

And in general, I think I would classify a participant/attendee/client/customer in any event where people pay a fee in exchange for an experience. Even if it’s a Porsche Club event where you pay a fee, and get together for a dinner or drive or other experience, the folks attending are members but in a way, still considered constituents or customers or clients. I think of it this way because when I organize an event that’s optional, the people choosing to pay and participate will likely opt out next time if it is disappointing. I’ve certainly opted out of events after having a bad first experience (whether a PCA club event or other).

Yes it’s a club and people are members. But they still pay in exchange for something, and if their expectations aren’t met (or preferably exceeded), then they are likely NOT to return, and if they seek a similar experience they’ll find an organization that will provide a better experience.

When I put on training events in my corporate past, these were not optional. Folks had to attend and in fact were judged on how well they completed the training. If they didn’t like it, they could give feedback, but they couldn’t opt out of the next training. Of course if I did my job poorly and put on terrible events, they would have shown me the door.

But HPDE is a hobby, a choice and an expensive pursuit.

The person who told Veloce Raptor that if someone didn’t register with their club, they were not welcome/desired as a client/attendee - that’s just BAD BUSINESS. Anyone who operates their business (or club) in that manner will have an abbreviated future IMO. There are the occasional folks who are asked to leave and never welcomed back, but those are rare, and usually it’s due to dangerous behavior on track. I’m not talking about those instances.

In general I’d say that if PCA regions are all experiencing “shrinkage” and losing drivers to for-profit clubs, then PCA will need to make some significant changes or we’ll be “out of business”.

 

Matt,
A club member is part of club event but at the end of the day a club member wants to be happy. Having said that, whoever runs an event and charges a fee to participate, those participants are clients or customers even if it is a club running an event for club members, There is sage quality control saying I learned over 25 years ago "A happy customer tells a few people, an unhappy customer tells at least 10 people about the experience.

 

I didn't intend to turn the conversation into a PCA versus non-PCA organizer thread. My point was that there seems to be plenty of demand, at least based on what I'm seeing here and around the United States, that even when events are dropped and even when there is a bad organizer attitude, there are other groups ready to pick up the dates and take up the slack. As for the customer designation, it is common practice that most PCA events allow non-members to participate. So to me, member or not, they are all customers and should be treated as such. Their participation determines whether the event breaks even, makes a profit, or loses a bundle. Groups, like Niagara PCA and NNJR and Potomac, that treat everyone as a valued customer, and make everyone feel welcome, succeed year in and year out and are oversold at every event

 

Not sure I share your sentiment with this particular region. Again, YMMV.

 

Agreed. There’s been a quantum shift over the years between widespread volunteerism, loyalty to one particular organization and individuals seeking an “experience.”

For many, time is the most valuable commodity, and people want to make sure that their leisure pursuits have the best possible outcome, at least meet and hopefully exceed their expectations.

When I started, there were only a few options to get on track, and only two or three accessible to me to go racing. Only a few PCA Regions, a few BMWCCA Chapters and for me, the Ferrari Club were entrees into what we now know as Drivers Education.

For amateur, “club” racing, SCCA was the only option. There was really good camaraderie among, and tremendous loyalty to the Club. Huge numbers of volunteers worked the corners, manned registration and tech, served as instructors at schools (and there was no shortage of schools, then), it was THE thing. Much like Matt’s hopeful experience.

Then, historic racing became a thing, PCA Club Racing, BMWCCA Club Racing, then NASA started vying for the same core group of not only drivers, but workers.

In 1987, TrackTime (before Bobby Rahal bought it) was the first “for-profit” DE program, followed quickly by a core group of Mid-Atlantic PCA volunteers who formed the backbone of Car Guys, Inc., a tremendously popular program that expanded to more than two dozen dates a year and put more than ten thousand drivers through their program in less than eight years, bringing standardization, instructor training and development and a “customer centric” approach to the experience. Working side by side with Potomac stalwart Dan Dazzo and with Dan Unkefer in the classroom were some of the best experiences I ever had.

Fast forward to now. Today, there is not only no shortage of options and choices for DE’s and track days, but now no shortage of places to begin club racing. Drivers club series, LeMons, ChampCar, NASA, AER, WRL, POC, SpeedVentures, plus thirty-five historic groups, SCCA, SRO, Sprint Cup and all the marque club series. It’s amazing!

Like driver coaching, the longer one does this, the more one realizes that there are MANY ways to improve. Or, in the case of driving events, school, track day or club race, no “one, right” way.

It’s fun and educational to observe and study the different cultures between Regional or Chapter programs and some of the for-profits. The idea that one or the other is definitively superior is not my experience. At all.

This is a great thread. All it takes, much if the time, is rhe interest and commitment on the part of the organizers and workers (yes, instructors are that, too) to do BETTER.

My.02

 

Hah thank you. That was Namerow up at LCMT. Good times.

 

And that is where I secretly wear plaid shirts and still think of club members being volunteers, helping with events, and being more than customers. Luckily, in my home region of NCR that is still very much the case and I'm fortunate to get to be around a lot of great clubs, regions, chapters, and organizations that are more than just working with "customers."

 

Random introspective thoughts from continuing to follow his thread...

When I chair a club event HPDE/Race, I don't get paid and rarely get track time and if I do get out on track, it is not the same. So what motivates a chair to take on this effort?

For me, it is the happiest we see from the drivers and funny enough - from the volunteers too (not customers and employees to me). I think of it as a few hundred of my friends have gotten together to rent the track and have some fun. Yes we have rules - need the Liability Coverage and I take serious the safety of everyone, but especially the Instructor pool who have offered to sit right seat. Also I focus on taking care of all the volunteers (including corner workers, safety crews, unpaid or paid), most who do not go out on track, but are key to running a safe and successful non-profit event. Some of which I have also become good friends with at multiple tracks. And then there is the overarching concern, will it cover the expenses...

When I attend a for-profit event, I am a customer they are making a profit (or not - their risk), expectations and willingness to "pitch in" change.

When I attend a PCA/BMW event, I am running with pals both on track and the organizers, many of which I have become good friends with. I attend their events, play by their rules, then they come to our events, play by our rules. But the key is we are pals in the paddock and on track and a willingness to pitch in. I also like to think we learn form each other on how to put on a better event.

At for profit events, not so much. I am there to get track time. Much like buying an airline ticket. I may sit next to you and be polite, friendly, abide by the rules, but my purpose that day is to get from A to B, not to make friends or longterm relationships (though I do know someone who met their future spouse on an airplane ride... but I digress). At club events I am there as much for the camaraderie and friendship as the track time. I attend both, but in my perspective they are not the same. Not saying one is bad or good, just my motivations are different based on the purpose of the event and my attendance.

I have a day job with customers and employees, that is not what I do HPDE for or why I chair events, for me (and I think from many others) it is for the friendships and the good work we do collectively for all our pals involved.

Do agree, clubs will need to adapt if they want to remain relevant, change is inevitable. And in the end I think this hobby (business) will survive and their will be winners and losers.

Now if Mid-Ohio could just find a way to repave...

 

Well stated ^kein_ersatz. Thank you.

And YES PLEASE to Mid OH repave!!!

 

Would be nice, but in the meantime I'd settle for towels and soap for an ENTIRE event.

Towards the original topic, I do a good number of days in a year and try to adhere to a schedule so I'm on track every x number of days. In doing this I inevitably run into conflicts between "favorite" events running on the same dates so it's basically flip a coin--for me, private or marque club doesn't matter quite as much as making the dates work.

As for attendance this year I've done plenty of both types and have seen a marked increase of entries. Here in my part of NY Covid cases are increasing once again so that bears watching going forward.

Right now I'm leaving for the Glen for two days with a very well-run private group and my main concern is that it doesn't rain tomorrow like it is at Spa right now

 

Hi Matt,
I wear plaid shirts over tee shirts to the track because they are more comfortable and I have a ton of them, but you can loses sight that whether a club or a for-profit, all participates are customers.
I attended what some on this post state is a premier go to well-run PCA Watkins Glen events. I arrived late and registration was closed the night before the event.
The CI and President at the time several years ago, said, no worry, we can process you tomorrow.
I show up the next day for registration on the designated time ( getting up at 6am to be there) and some of the key people to process me do not show up to 7am.
I was pissed and expressed my displeasure opening in front of them who did not apologize, but said we are a great organization.
Then, the organizers alleged I had 2 offs and sat me down for the rest of the weekend. I asked to explain to me the 2 offs. On further investigation, there was only only one off and that was because the corner worker did not alert drivers of oil on the line and my car started to understeer causing the off.
So for me out of that experience, I have never been back.
That is why customer focus is so important.

 

^T&T Racing, that’s unacceptable treatment, and I agree that the drivers/participants are “paying customers” even if club members. Several points you make would be a red flag to me and I’d probably not return to that club if that was my experience.

^Matt, I understand your perspective. We sure have lots of fantastic volunteers that help put on our events and make them run smoothly. Those folks are invaluable and we couldn’t do it without them (and of course everyone on the track team is a volunteer).

I think it becomes a matter of definitions and semantics, but we are more or less saying the same thing. Everyone there should be treated with respect. Many are there to help and pitch in. All who pay to drive should receive the best experience possible and as much track time as possible/practical to get the best value for their dollar. And for many of us, the social aspects are as important as the driving. We love being around our friends, and making new friends and sharing the experience with like-minded people. And even though I’m stating it last: SAFETY is always first. ALWAYS. It has to be, because without safety we don’t have anything.

 

Big difference in being a cheerleader for the club/approach/execution and taking these admonishments (like Tom registering his displeasure at event volunteers when he did was advised by those further updates in the hierarchy) seriously, and TO HEART, IMO.

So many quick-on-the-trigger judgments without proper vetting and poor communications within the club members working the event can be indicative of a culture that could stand a makeover.

This is different from regions and chapters that have a well-honed, yet comparatively structured methodology and execution. Although some participants may not like it, these groups tend to be well-run, with good communications and lots of deliberation (yet executing still decisively when needed) in their adjudication of on-track events.