Alan Herod

The safety thread has raised some questions for me. I want to replace my stock seats with proper seats but am confused by the thread. Why are seats like the Kirkey Road Race not FIA approved? Is it because they have not been tested by the FIA, NASCAR drivers have certainly tested them. Is there data to indicate that they are safer, less safe, or the same as carbon fiber FIA approved seats? Is the fact that aluminum seats deform and do not return to their pre-stress shape more dangerous? This seat purchase is another thing that I don't want to perform several times. Are there any easy answers?

Geo

The short answer I think (it's been a while since I've read the full FIA standard) is that testing cost money (you have to pay the mob, er, FIA to get seats tested). I imagine (pure speculation) that the aluminum seat manufacturers have a large enough market already that they don't see the advantage to get certification from the FIA.

John Brown

Morning Allan. Concur with George.

Also, if you go to the FIA site and read the published standards you may be less than impressed. I'm kinda looking for an bio-engineering type to make sure I'm seeing 'apples to apples' not 'oranges'. But the gees they use are not all that high. Also, it would appear that they only look at whether the seat stays intact and not the effect of the seat on the dummy. Granted, if the seat stays intact that probably indicates 90% of the solution.

I'm leaning toward aluminum construction.

924RACR

Agree 100% with George and John. Talking with Wes at BSR, who make and sell the ISP aluminum seats, he stressed that they crash test their seats to much higher standards than the FIA tests. I stressed to him that having an FIA certification was a marketing "must-have" for many of the road-racing crowd. He mentioned that they have sent an ISP seat over to be FIA tested.

But consider that the US road-racing crowd, such as represented here, is the only place where there's the cross-over between Al circle-track seats and the FIA composite seats. The Al seats are generally not market in Europe, to my knowledge, and the composite seats over here sell mostly to the road racers. SFI doesn't have seat certification, but if they did, I doubt any Euro seat manufacturers would much bother paying to have their seats SFI certified.

IMO, if you really want the best protection, you must also mount the seat to the cage, and either mount the back to the cage as well, with an aluminum seat (per the manufacturer's guidelines) or mount the seat only at the bottom, if composite FIA-certified, and throw it away every 5 years (per the manufacturer's recommendations).

special tool

I have a Kirkey in my ITS car - it has an adjustable back brace to the cage.

RedlineMan

I'm down 100% on this.

The FIA WAS very smart to ban back braces and mandate specs for seat quality in my opinion. Whether the test and quality threshold is anything worthwhile is another matter. The available data seems to suggest it is a bit of a paper tiger.

As I have discussed in other threads, I like to toughness (high stress before complete failure) of aluminum. I also have a theory that the alloy seat may be safer.

I make the assumption that in the extreme an alloy seat will bend and not return completely compared to a plastic seat which will bend and have a high degree of memory (return). In a nasty offset hit where the driver were thrown sideways, I might guess that an alloy seat would bend to some degree, and thus be waiting in a better position to receive the driver upon recoil, -vs- a plastic seat that might return to its original position and leave the driver stranded outside it upon recoil.

Just a guess, mind you, but an interesting theory.

I like metal.

Adam Richman

John, I am not sure I follow how this is a realistic concern. The body's weight is what's deforming the seat. Unless the body were to move the seat, exit the seat and try to return to the seat would this make sense. I am sure that this is a possibility (not sure how probable) with loose enough belts but in that condition, the driver is in serious trouble anyway.

To the original poster's concern, what gets my cackles up is when folks reference NASCAR drivers using the same seats that can be bought off the shelf from Butler and Kirkey. To my knowledge, no NASCAR driver is using an off the shelf seat - they are custom formed, have custom inserts (padding and multiple layers of it at different densities) and are double walled. By all means, call up Butler and Kirkey and find out first hand but from my vantage point (comparing a cutom built BB seat from a Busch Series car that was cut up for display purposes to my old Kirkey) the differences between off-the-shelf and what these guys run are immense.

924RACR

You're absolutely right, Adam - those guys all run custom fitted seats. However, during my long discussion with Wes at BSR, we talked a lot about seats. They do not make any off-the-shelf seats, interestingly enough; their demand for custom is high enough to preclude a need to make off-the-shelf seats and have inventory sitting on hand. However, and this was what surprised me, he gave me a rundown on what it'd cost to make a seat with head and shoulder supports, and that was about $850 or so - custom fitted to my measurements! It would be a little lighter duty than what they run on the ovals (heh heh... he said duty!) but still quite acceptable. Or, alternatively, buy an off-the shelf Kirkey and add the head and shoulder supports from ISP.

When we get to these limits of motion, however, what happens with the composite seats is that they rip. I think the impact direction in which we're seeing these possible modes of seat failure is strictly extreme pure or close to pure lateral hits. That's the only time the driver could pop out of the belts, or rather that the belts don't help restrain the upper body.

But this goes back to the other post. Get an interior net, install it properly, and keep the driver within the seat laterally. The net backs up the strength of the seat, whatever type (and they do test with both composite and aluminum), to ensure that it does not fail.

I still think that the longitudinal (mainly rearward) impact concerns about seat mounting and seat fracture only apply in the case of seats mounted to the car floor instead of the cage. The answer in pro racing, which let's face it is where all the safety innovation is, is to mount the seat to the cage. The reason we don't do it is because we're half-a$$ed Walter Mitty types who don't always take every step possible to ensure our own safety - be it a reason of cost, or "I don't want to cut up the car" or whatever the excuse. If you want to be safe, buy whatever seat you feel suits your need (and I don't think the composite seats are a safety hazard, or the C5R et al would not be using them), mount it to the cage, mount an interior net, and mount your belts to the cage. If you don't do this, be honest with yourself that you're making an educated compromise between safety and cost, and realize that you're willing to take that risk. It's no different than if you choose to race without an H+N device. And be glad that the sanctioning bodies do not regulate this stuff!!!

In my case, I will continue to race with a cheap seat (lightweight Kirkey) bolted to the floor, and with my lap and sub belts attached to the body frame rails instead of the cage. I know that if I put the car through a blender, I run the risk of increased damage. I'm willing to take this risk until such time as I can afford to buy a newer, safer seat, have a seat mounting subframe installed, and re-mount my belts.

Adam Richman

Gotcha, I probably should have been more clear - I refer to the $185.00-275.00 Kirkey Intermediate/Road Race Intermediate seats vs. the BB Custom seats (not familiar w/ Kirkey's customs but would assume they are equivalent). The BB double walled, custom fitted (like the pricing you mention for the BSR seat) were around $1100 when I checked (didn't do too much price shopping). I just wanted to distinguish that this type of seat and those sold at that 200ish price range are not of the same ilk - they are also not the ones used in NASCAR.

Alan Herod

Perhaps what I stated could have been confusing; but, I don't believe that all NASCAR drivers are Grand National or whatever those folks that drive the ovals are, just as I don't believe that all folks who drive/race Porsches are racing in American LeMans or some FIA series. Perhaps I should have said oval track drivers. Also, I was not referring to purchasings a two, or three hundred dollar Kirkey. The Kirkey Road Race certainly appears to be significantly stronger then their baseline seat although not a custom seat. Fact is these 'hobby' oval entry to mid-level racers test their entry level equipment pretty frequently at speeds that many of us will never attain in our 911s or 944s. The person that built the cage in my second ITS car had a lot of experience ruining chassis and building new tube frame cars for mid-level racers, and it seems he was building one every week. Generally they were equipped with some entry level aluminum seat that seemed to come back none the worse for wear. Those folks generally perform significantly more acrobatics then I have seen in 35+ years of participation in and/or spectating road course events. (Generally should probably be underlined)

924RACR

Agreed. One good piece of news, talking to Wes @ BSR, he did say that their add-on head and shoulder supports (for the ISP seats) can certainly be used with any other Al seat with sufficient structure (.125 thick as I recall), and they're quite OK with that. I can't do this with my seat, as it's a Kirkey Economy, and it's too thin.

And I'd wholeheartedly agree with the frequency with which these guys seem to test their equipment. I wonder if it has something to do with their licensing procedures...

APKhaos

Alan,
Betty C and I both have the Kirkey Deluxe Road Race seat. It is extremely strong, with considerable lateral support. Comfortable as well. Come try it out at the next event!

Alan Herod

Thanks Tony, will do. From my understanding of GR and Rennlist protocol that means you are asking me to drove your car?

I was meaning to last time -- although I doubt that I could see over the steering wheel. It turned out that I was a little busier then I planned.

Geo

Although it has been a while since I've read the FIA seat specs fully, I don' think the FIA has banned back braces.

What is going on is that seats are homologated using specific mounting procedures. Some seats are homologated only with bottom mounts. Some only with side mounts. Some with both (meaning they've been tested and homologated both ways). What's going on is none of the seats are homologated with back braces, making such a mounting illegal in the FIA since that is not a homologated configuration.

RealRideRacing

<< What is going on is that seats are homologated using specific mounting procedures. Some seats are homologated only with bottom mounts. Some only with side mounts. Some with both (meaning they've been tested and homologated both ways). What's going on is none of the seats are homologated with back braces, making such a mounting illegal in the FIA since that is not a homologated configuration. >>

Actually George,
Our Racetech Viper seats are designed for side mounts AND back braces, and is FIA approved. The seat was originally designed for the Viper Comp Coupe which is essentially a World Challenge specific car. Thus the seat had to conform to SCCA's mandate that a seat back brace be used.
I firmly believe that this seat is among the finest seats you can buy at ANY price for the following reasons:
1) It is the only known seat to be actually crash tested at any high G loads. About 42 G's in 360 degrees which is almost twice the FIA's requirement, making it an actual safety capsule. Other companies may claim similar levels of protection but I'm not aware of any who have actually crash tested theirs.

2) Much of this expensive development was done through Daimler Chrysler. During this development, countless other important features were developed that are not existent on other high end seats. For example, the seat has bosses actually molded into the shell to incorporate an interior safety net. There are support ribs and mounting points all along the spine for a back brace, and ribs on the side bolsters. The halo/ears alone can support over 600lbs of lateral force.

3) While doing our own research on seats, we had spoken to all the major players. Some provided us with helpful information, while others provided us with no feedback. Racetech, on the other hand, provided us with crash test data and crash videos to back up their claims.

If you get a chance, look at one of these seats carefully and you'll know what I'm talking about. I was immediately sold. By the way, we were also impressed with a few other seats:
- PPI has designed a seat for sedans (stockcars specifically) using boatloads of information gained from telemetry from their immense background in Champ Cars.
- Butler Built has a metal (AL & tubular steel) seat (can't remember the name) designed for high G load survivorbility. Quite popular among the Nextel Cup "circles"... get the pun?
- Randy La Joie seat was also a metal/AL seat that was impressive.
- Recaro SMG looks great, but at the time of our research, it was so new that they weren't able to provide us with much info.

By the way, call me fanatical, but I would rather not race at all than to drive in anything less than those seats. 2 days ago, I was offered a seat in a high profile endurance race for a new team. I turned down the offer for several reasons. But one of them was that I felt that the seat in the race car was insufficient.

... the other reason is that I'm just plain old now and would be embarrassed if the paying driver was actually faster than me! ;-)
Regards,
David
REALRIDE.COM RACING
http://www.RealRide.com