Buying scrubs for practice.
05-20-2021, 07:16 PM
#16
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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Wow . . . of course, like everything else in life there are two sides to the discussion. So for those mostly against the idea what if . . . and I have no idea if this is a possibility or not . . . but what if we were talking about tires from the "rich" guys at SST. I'd know the exact history of the tire, and I'm pretty sure SST wouldn't let me drive something that wasn't safe. I bet Todd throws his scrubs away all the time once he starts missing the apex by more than an "angstrom" (I hear that's the newest measurement of apex closeness that all the cool guys are using) 
I don’t know... while I could see doing that early in my career, due to financial necessity, I can’t see doing this now. I wouldn’t recommend anyone who’s trying to develop the car or themselves, as well as “stretch” their own comfort level to do so, either.
It’s not a safety issue, it’s a performance issue. One hugely multiplied on slicks, as opposed to R-comps. SST will look after/out fo you, for sure. If you needed some to finish the weekend, fine.
But, to comfortably find the limit, gauge the balance of the car (that’s what changes as slicks wear) and build confidence in the platform beneath you, you should look at new tires, properly brought in, as an investment.
Besides, LV is going quick enough in his new car to “get the good” out of anything he discards!
It’s not a safety issue, it’s a performance issue. One hugely multiplied on slicks, as opposed to R-comps. SST will look after/out fo you, for sure. If you needed some to finish the weekend, fine.
But, to comfortably find the limit, gauge the balance of the car (that’s what changes as slicks wear) and build confidence in the platform beneath you, you should look at new tires, properly brought in, as an investment.
Besides, LV is going quick enough in his new car to “get the good” out of anything he discards!
Buy new tires. Put that set on for qualifying and races. Use them for the test and tune and practice at next race. Rinse and repeat. Use old tires for DE's. Yoke's and Pirelli's lasted 20 heat cycles or more doing DE's. If you do 5 race weekends a year you'll have a sh*t load of scrubs. Just ask my wife 
It is the only way I justify buying 2 or 3 sets of stickers in a race weekend. I know I am going to use them for DEs and other track days. If I have to buy stickers for a DE it means I made a planning mistake at some point.
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ProCoach (05-20-2021)
05-21-2021, 12:06 AM
#17
Drifting
It's a roll of the dice, every single time. I have bought used tires on a few occasions from the people mentioned in this thread, and from a few others. Sometimes they are great, sometimes they are literally garbage you can't use. Everyone says they "only have 4 or 5 hear cycles", that's BS. Back when I had my own tire mounting/balance equipment I could sort of justify it. Much harder to do when paying a shop to mount them and driving around town to do it. These days I'd rather run a set of new Nittos or similar and have a consistent tire from start to finish. I think it's a false economy, unless you are getting them from a personal friend or free. Been there, done that.
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05-21-2021, 08:52 AM
#18
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A couple of points to clarify:
1) The OP asked about DE’s. If you’re just having fun at a DE, mostly social and all fun, no serious business, then scrubs are an easy no-brainer.
2) LV provided an analysis based on scrubs being 1/2 the price of stickers, my experience has been 1/4 the price of stickers which has a big impact on the conclusions.
i’ve been running scrubs at DE’s for a couple of years. Every now and then, about one out of six, I will get a bad set. Otherwise I easily get 2 to 3 days ( 8 to 12 sessions) out of a set. I did the math and it was a no-brainer. All of this is predicated on having fun at a DE, nothing serious.
1) The OP asked about DE’s. If you’re just having fun at a DE, mostly social and all fun, no serious business, then scrubs are an easy no-brainer.
2) LV provided an analysis based on scrubs being 1/2 the price of stickers, my experience has been 1/4 the price of stickers which has a big impact on the conclusions.
i’ve been running scrubs at DE’s for a couple of years. Every now and then, about one out of six, I will get a bad set. Otherwise I easily get 2 to 3 days ( 8 to 12 sessions) out of a set. I did the math and it was a no-brainer. All of this is predicated on having fun at a DE, nothing serious.
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Veloce Raptor (05-21-2021)
05-21-2021, 12:57 PM
#19
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A couple of points to clarify:
1) The OP asked about DE’s. If you’re just having fun at a DE, mostly social and all fun, no serious business, then scrubs are an easy no-brainer.
2) LV provided an analysis based on scrubs being 1/2 the price of stickers, my experience has been 1/4 the price of stickers which has a big impact on the conclusions.
i’ve been running scrubs at DE’s for a couple of years. Every now and then, about one out of six, I will get a bad set. Otherwise I easily get 2 to 3 days ( 8 to 12 sessions) out of a set. I did the math and it was a no-brainer. All of this is predicated on having fun at a DE, nothing serious.
1) The OP asked about DE’s. If you’re just having fun at a DE, mostly social and all fun, no serious business, then scrubs are an easy no-brainer.
2) LV provided an analysis based on scrubs being 1/2 the price of stickers, my experience has been 1/4 the price of stickers which has a big impact on the conclusions.
i’ve been running scrubs at DE’s for a couple of years. Every now and then, about one out of six, I will get a bad set. Otherwise I easily get 2 to 3 days ( 8 to 12 sessions) out of a set. I did the math and it was a no-brainer. All of this is predicated on having fun at a DE, nothing serious.
Again, I will accede that most people are not driving 10/10ths in a DE like they may be in a race, but my view of a DE is that it is Driver EDUCATION, and I am there to learn. If I just want to turn laps I could do that on corded tires. You can't learn as much on older tires.
People will have different opinions and goals so I am not saying there is a right or wrong answer.
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05-21-2021, 01:05 PM
#20
Drifting
I don't think it's worth doing the math, because as I said it's a roll of the dice on tire life. But if you do, make sure you factor spending 2-3x the time and money mounting and balancing tires. There are more good 1-200 treadwear track tire options available now than ever before.
05-21-2021, 02:41 PM
#21
Instructor
I've tried to do the math on this and there are two factors to consider: 1. number of heat cycles left in the tires; 2. grip left in the tires.
Lets say you pay 50% of the cost of stickers for a set of take-offs. Normally, they will have about 70% of the number of heat cycles left in the tires, which is a good number, but the grip is immediately off by 20% and goes down with each heat cycle (depending on brand and type of tire).
Although the cost may be good for the number of heat cycles left in the car what are you learning on old tires? A part of me says "you are learning how to manage grip" so it is worthwhile. Sometimes I deliberately go out on old tires to get that "late in enduro race feeling" and that is useful. However, you can't make setup changes using take-offs and it is hard to try "new things" on take-offs as well. Good tires are the only true baseline.
While I ride my tires down until they have nothing left I'm not a huge fan of buying take-offs. What is the delta between paying full freight, learning on stickers, and driving them down to nothing versus the cost savings of take-offs and starting with a lesser level of grip? Believe me when I say I want to save money but at the end of the day I just don't see a huge benefit for the cost savings. I'd rather stay at a cheaper hotel and save the money for tires (but not the Seneca Lodge!)
Lets say you pay 50% of the cost of stickers for a set of take-offs. Normally, they will have about 70% of the number of heat cycles left in the tires, which is a good number, but the grip is immediately off by 20% and goes down with each heat cycle (depending on brand and type of tire).
Although the cost may be good for the number of heat cycles left in the car what are you learning on old tires? A part of me says "you are learning how to manage grip" so it is worthwhile. Sometimes I deliberately go out on old tires to get that "late in enduro race feeling" and that is useful. However, you can't make setup changes using take-offs and it is hard to try "new things" on take-offs as well. Good tires are the only true baseline.
While I ride my tires down until they have nothing left I'm not a huge fan of buying take-offs. What is the delta between paying full freight, learning on stickers, and driving them down to nothing versus the cost savings of take-offs and starting with a lesser level of grip? Believe me when I say I want to save money but at the end of the day I just don't see a huge benefit for the cost savings. I'd rather stay at a cheaper hotel and save the money for tires (but not the Seneca Lodge!)
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ProCoach (05-21-2021)
05-21-2021, 06:15 PM
#22
Three Wheelin'
I have bought used slicks from Roger Kraus Racing nearby, and from John Berget who is back in my home state of WI.
I have done so at various times for about a decade and a half...I'd say 90% of the time it has been worthwhile based on my use cases.
I have also acquired used tires at pro racing events, and from friends that change tires more frequently. Free. But of course I had to pay for dismount, mount and balance work.
Again I'd say 90% of the time it has been worthwhile based on my use cases.
For me defining the use cases has been critical in my decision-making and assessment of benefit.
In my case, these use cases were much easier to define during periods when I was driving and racing a lot.
And of course during that period, my wife was driving the same car, also at a pretty high level and frequently.
It's all about the tires...
Is the "it" just fun? Is the "it" winning a race or time trial?
Is the "it" the same for every event, every type of event and so on?
"It" depends.
I have done so at various times for about a decade and a half...I'd say 90% of the time it has been worthwhile based on my use cases.
I have also acquired used tires at pro racing events, and from friends that change tires more frequently. Free. But of course I had to pay for dismount, mount and balance work.
Again I'd say 90% of the time it has been worthwhile based on my use cases.
For me defining the use cases has been critical in my decision-making and assessment of benefit.
In my case, these use cases were much easier to define during periods when I was driving and racing a lot.
And of course during that period, my wife was driving the same car, also at a pretty high level and frequently.
It's all about the tires...
Is the "it" just fun? Is the "it" winning a race or time trial?
Is the "it" the same for every event, every type of event and so on?
"It" depends.
05-21-2021, 10:49 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
I ran my 987.2 for 6 years with Pirelli DH take-off's from JB. Very few bad tires in all that time and he always made good on anything bad. But, I wonder in hind sight what have I been missing. So, now that I have the GT4 my thoughts have changed and I will be buying stickers for the future.
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ProCoach (05-22-2021)
05-22-2021, 11:05 AM
#24
I ran used DHs for a couple years. Very much a good value, at least then. It was usually about $600 for a set, vs $2200 new. Decent performance and track life because the DHs lose the initial 2-second advantage pretty quick but then fall off more slowly after that.
One nice takeaway from that time is that I leaned to be much more in tune with the tires, since you had no idea what you were mounting, and they often aren’t matched. The first couple sessions were always pretty exciting. Straight line acceleration can bend the car one way, and then stepping on the brakes can send the car the other way (!!) until the tires settled in for the car.
If going this route I’d suggest stocking up at the end of the season, when teams are ditching their scrubs. In the spring used tires can be scarce and the ones you get can be really beat up, as teams are doing a lot more setup, etc.
One nice takeaway from that time is that I leaned to be much more in tune with the tires, since you had no idea what you were mounting, and they often aren’t matched. The first couple sessions were always pretty exciting. Straight line acceleration can bend the car one way, and then stepping on the brakes can send the car the other way (!!) until the tires settled in for the car.
If going this route I’d suggest stocking up at the end of the season, when teams are ditching their scrubs. In the spring used tires can be scarce and the ones you get can be really beat up, as teams are doing a lot more setup, etc.
Last edited by Difool; 05-22-2021 at 11:09 AM.