Thoughts on heel & toe
#31
I can disagree without being copied on all your posts.
Or anyone else's for that matter.
"Not only do you not need it, it is a safety hazard!"
I guess you meant to say "I did not need it, it was a safety hazard for ME, based upon MY variables."
I guess I could not properly translate.
My aftermarket pedal has a "wing" in that same area, but the pedal design has different dimensions and geometry. And of course my anatomy, preferences and driving position are all quite different from yours. For example I am a foot shorter and my shoe size is quite a bit smaller. And as you know I run a lot more seat rake.
I should add that when I mess up under braking is when my foot slips off of the brake pedal pad (stock'75 911) and down to the pedal arm. I remember having that happen in turn 11 at LS during RRIV. I had a soft pedal anyway, and so this was a double jeopardy deal as I was point toward the driver door of a backmarker 944. I got it slowed down, but there went that lap.
In any case, I think the OP has plenty of food for thought. Lots of variables. Lots of opportunities. Not one size fits all.
Or anyone else's for that matter.
"Not only do you not need it, it is a safety hazard!"
I guess you meant to say "I did not need it, it was a safety hazard for ME, based upon MY variables."
I guess I could not properly translate.
My aftermarket pedal has a "wing" in that same area, but the pedal design has different dimensions and geometry. And of course my anatomy, preferences and driving position are all quite different from yours. For example I am a foot shorter and my shoe size is quite a bit smaller. And as you know I run a lot more seat rake.
I should add that when I mess up under braking is when my foot slips off of the brake pedal pad (stock'75 911) and down to the pedal arm. I remember having that happen in turn 11 at LS during RRIV. I had a soft pedal anyway, and so this was a double jeopardy deal as I was point toward the driver door of a backmarker 944. I got it slowed down, but there went that lap.
In any case, I think the OP has plenty of food for thought. Lots of variables. Lots of opportunities. Not one size fits all.
Last edited by Mahler9th; 11-09-2020 at 07:59 PM.
#32
Yes, I know all of that. All brake master cylinder sizes have already been figured out. The hydraulic clutch kit recommended a master cylinder size and I am going with that.
Last edited by winders; 11-10-2020 at 03:41 AM.
#33
You said you have been away from driving manual for many years so, just like Mahler9th said, I say go back to basics until you are almost perfect then go to advanced techniques like heel toe. . I think one of the most basic items that most have missed is learning the muscle memory and feel on the clutch engagement point of release. One of the basic lessons I was taught on a motorcycle was to go to a parking lot and release the clutch to the point of engagement start moving then stop and try again. Teach your leg and brain where this point is and what that feeling is. If you don't have a good feel for this point of engagement, you will never heel toe properly, never mind being able to upshift and start smoothly. Can you pull away with little to no throttle without the car stalling or jumping? (on flat ground of course) If not, work on your clutch release. Are your upshifts almost as smooth as an Automatic, if not work on your clutch release. I've personally seen this with many students at track days. They are focusing on heel toe, when they are not even capable of shifting smoothly with basic technique, slowly up or down. This includes advanced run group drivers and instructors I have driven with not, just beginners.
Also with the 1-2 shift I don't know if it was fixed by the 997 but 996 and 986 do not shift well between those gears and regularly loose the synchros on 2nd. Smooth and patient on that shift, Porsche's are not drag cars so no need to force it. Mechanical sympathy seems to be a thing of the past to most drivers.
Also with the 1-2 shift I don't know if it was fixed by the 997 but 996 and 986 do not shift well between those gears and regularly loose the synchros on 2nd. Smooth and patient on that shift, Porsche's are not drag cars so no need to force it. Mechanical sympathy seems to be a thing of the past to most drivers.
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QuercusPorsche (11-10-2020)
#34
thanks CL9441351 - on the 1-2 shift, things are smooth for the most part, only once in a while I feel the synchros doing hardwork (but even then I'd never experience any grinding noice, so good news I guess), but I've gotten into the habit of double clutching now and really like the smooth engagement so been sticking with that unless I get lazy sometimes lol.
agree with the fundamentals point wholeheartedly, one advantage I had was that I've test drove 3 different 997 before buying this one, and those muscle memories sorta came back during the various test drives, funny that I did stall a couple times on that first test drive but all is good haha. but again, agreed that smoothness is key.
agree with the fundamentals point wholeheartedly, one advantage I had was that I've test drove 3 different 997 before buying this one, and those muscle memories sorta came back during the various test drives, funny that I did stall a couple times on that first test drive but all is good haha. but again, agreed that smoothness is key.
#35
Do you have floor mats in the car? I found in my moms 996 that sometimes kept the pedal from going all the way to the floor and the 1-2 shift becomes notchy. You think you hit the floor but if you push a little harder it shifts smoother, perfectly fine not pushing that hard in any other gear. I've personally never liked the shifter in the 996 myself, it never feels solid. I like the feeling of the car popping into gear like the old 944's with proper gates, not the feeling of the modern cable shifter cars even in a 987.2 Cayman that I drove with 500km on it.
#36
I find it very hard to blip the throttle w/ my heel. I use the side of my foot to blip, and my heel to add throttle as I release the brake. I can't seem to get enough mechanical advantage at my heel to move the throttle far enough, quickly enough, to get a good blip. Probably depends on your feet, seating position, pedal layout, etc.
I should just put in an Auto-Blip LOL.
And remove the adjustable pedal like you said.
I should just put in an Auto-Blip LOL.
And remove the adjustable pedal like you said.
Do you have floor mats in the car? I found in my moms 996 that sometimes kept the pedal from going all the way to the floor and the 1-2 shift becomes notchy. You think you hit the floor but if you push a little harder it shifts smoother, perfectly fine not pushing that hard in any other gear. I've personally never liked the shifter in the 996 myself, it never feels solid. I like the feeling of the car popping into gear like the old 944's with proper gates, not the feeling of the modern cable shifter cars even in a 987.2 Cayman that I drove with 500km on it.
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Nickshu (11-10-2020)
#37
I got those all-weather floor mats for the car, though haven't paid attention to the carpet/mat behind the pedals - will check, the issue really isn't that prominent, just one of those things that feed into my paranoia haha
#38
I'm surprised nobody has mentioned a heel-stop yet. I put one in my 911sc based racecar with stock pedals after almost going off at Summit Point T1 because my heel slipped and applied throttle. Side effect it has helped me be much more consistent threshold braking (consistent - not great mind you) and maintaining brake pressure during blips. May not be desireable in a street car, but it's worth considering especially with floor hung pedals.
#39
I think like most people, I largely self-taught myself what I thought heel toe should be years ago. It worked well in cars that I was familiar with and, as it turns out, was largely dependent on pedal placement in the car - most of my cars have been European. At the end of last season, I drove a spec miata on track (first time driving a miata of any type and first time at that track). I had massive issues with the pedal placement and blipping the throttle on downshifts. Fast forward to this summer and I did the Skip Barber 3 day and 2 day schools where you driver their Mustangs. Same issue where I couldn't pull off a heel/toe at all. They have a "chapter" of their class where they focus exclusively on doing heel/toe and the one thing that they mentioned that I'd never heard anyone else say was that it's less about moving your foot and more about moving your knee!
With apologies to those following along who know this already, sharing here for anyone else who might find this helpful.
Essentially, they have you "lock" your right heel in place where it should be for your accelerator pedal. When breaking, leave the your heel rooted and then pivot the top of your foot over to where you can depress the brake pedal. In that position, your knee should also be where it's at its highest (depending on car, and wheel position, picture it brushing the steering column). Then, with the left edge of your right foot on the brake pedal, you move your right knee over to the right. That, in turn, rotates your right foot onto the accelerator pedal. They initially have you practice doing this with the car stationary and just focusing on that knee movement. A quick pivot of your knee allows you to keep steady pressure on the brake pedal, but still blip the throttle.
It felt really weird to me to completely change how I'd been doing it since I first started driving on the track (literally decades ago), and it took a while before it felt comfortable. However, for me it led to *much* more consistency and made it much easier for me to get a solid blip regardless of getting into unfamiliar cars.
I'm positive there's someone who could explain this better than my effort above, but mess around with it and see if helps. The essential idea is having your heel locked in place and just pivoting your knee so that you engage the throttle with the side of your foot.
With apologies to those following along who know this already, sharing here for anyone else who might find this helpful.
Essentially, they have you "lock" your right heel in place where it should be for your accelerator pedal. When breaking, leave the your heel rooted and then pivot the top of your foot over to where you can depress the brake pedal. In that position, your knee should also be where it's at its highest (depending on car, and wheel position, picture it brushing the steering column). Then, with the left edge of your right foot on the brake pedal, you move your right knee over to the right. That, in turn, rotates your right foot onto the accelerator pedal. They initially have you practice doing this with the car stationary and just focusing on that knee movement. A quick pivot of your knee allows you to keep steady pressure on the brake pedal, but still blip the throttle.
It felt really weird to me to completely change how I'd been doing it since I first started driving on the track (literally decades ago), and it took a while before it felt comfortable. However, for me it led to *much* more consistency and made it much easier for me to get a solid blip regardless of getting into unfamiliar cars.
I'm positive there's someone who could explain this better than my effort above, but mess around with it and see if helps. The essential idea is having your heel locked in place and just pivoting your knee so that you engage the throttle with the side of your foot.
The following 2 users liked this post by CT_Peter:
JayL (11-11-2020),
QuercusPorsche (11-11-2020)
#40
thx CT_Peter, I think my self-taught way ended up similar to what you described - much easier to pivot the right leg so as to set yourself up for the (w/r/t the right foot) upper left braking/lower right throttle positions before going in with the full motion of doing the braking/blipping. I found that first committing to the braking pedal position with the upper left part of your right foot, then worry about the heel/side of your foot is easier for me, so I'm essentially doing a kick but with a rotation in the knee (or the entire leg). have to admit though, I have missed a couple blips because the rotation was not enough, so guess more to go on the muscle memories.
#41
I think like most people, I largely self-taught myself what I thought heel toe should be years ago. It worked well in cars that I was familiar with and, as it turns out, was largely dependent on pedal placement in the car - most of my cars have been European. At the end of last season, I drove a spec miata on track (first time driving a miata of any type and first time at that track). I had massive issues with the pedal placement and blipping the throttle on downshifts. Fast forward to this summer and I did the Skip Barber 3 day and 2 day schools where you driver their Mustangs. Same issue where I couldn't pull off a heel/toe at all. They have a "chapter" of their class where they focus exclusively on doing heel/toe and the one thing that they mentioned that I'd never heard anyone else say was that it's less about moving your foot and more about moving your knee!
With apologies to those following along who know this already, sharing here for anyone else who might find this helpful.
Essentially, they have you "lock" your right heel in place where it should be for your accelerator pedal. When breaking, leave the your heel rooted and then pivot the top of your foot over to where you can depress the brake pedal. In that position, your knee should also be where it's at its highest (depending on car, and wheel position, picture it brushing the steering column). Then, with the left edge of your right foot on the brake pedal, you move your right knee over to the right. That, in turn, rotates your right foot onto the accelerator pedal. They initially have you practice doing this with the car stationary and just focusing on that knee movement. A quick pivot of your knee allows you to keep steady pressure on the brake pedal, but still blip the throttle.
It felt really weird to me to completely change how I'd been doing it since I first started driving on the track (literally decades ago), and it took a while before it felt comfortable. However, for me it led to *much* more consistency and made it much easier for me to get a solid blip regardless of getting into unfamiliar cars.
I'm positive there's someone who could explain this better than my effort above, but mess around with it and see if helps. The essential idea is having your heel locked in place and just pivoting your knee so that you engage the throttle with the side of your foot.
With apologies to those following along who know this already, sharing here for anyone else who might find this helpful.
Essentially, they have you "lock" your right heel in place where it should be for your accelerator pedal. When breaking, leave the your heel rooted and then pivot the top of your foot over to where you can depress the brake pedal. In that position, your knee should also be where it's at its highest (depending on car, and wheel position, picture it brushing the steering column). Then, with the left edge of your right foot on the brake pedal, you move your right knee over to the right. That, in turn, rotates your right foot onto the accelerator pedal. They initially have you practice doing this with the car stationary and just focusing on that knee movement. A quick pivot of your knee allows you to keep steady pressure on the brake pedal, but still blip the throttle.
It felt really weird to me to completely change how I'd been doing it since I first started driving on the track (literally decades ago), and it took a while before it felt comfortable. However, for me it led to *much* more consistency and made it much easier for me to get a solid blip regardless of getting into unfamiliar cars.
I'm positive there's someone who could explain this better than my effort above, but mess around with it and see if helps. The essential idea is having your heel locked in place and just pivoting your knee so that you engage the throttle with the side of your foot.
Last edited by T&T Racing; 11-11-2020 at 12:09 PM.