FixedWing

I’ve been sort of watching this thread for a while now. What an eye opener!

First of all, I just cannot imagine that someone would drive a car in such a way to invoke the stability system frequently enough to cause differential brake pad wear. What are they doing! And how on earth could they ever not be aware of this?

I agree very much with Michael Paton’s comments on PSM and smoothness. Smoothness is the key to a fast lap. A smooth driver will rarely invoke PSM. An overly aggressive driver will invoke it far more often and not in a good way.

For me, I know instantly when the PSM light flickers. At the Nürburgring it will flicker occasionally when the car get light and the system gets a little confused. On these occasions it is really doing nothing. When it does do something I know it instantly and it certainly isn’t the quick way around the track. I try to avoid this and consider it a failure when this happens. As Michael says, PSM is an excellent guide to one’s smoothness.

But there is another side to PSM that no one has yet mentioned. Yesterday, here in Connecticut, we had a wonderful snow storm. I took advantage of the empty snow covered roads last night to go out and play in my non-stability control equipped Audi S4. I had a fantastic time! And on a few occasions experienced the consequences of my excessive exuberance. Obviously, on all of those occasions I recovered nicely and continued on my way.

Now, in my Porsche Turbo, I know that PSM would have come on before the big slides (assuming of course there was at least enough traction for it to work). First of all this robs me of the experience of recovering from these almost-out-of-control situations. This is important! Driving isn’t just about keeping the car under control. It is also about recovering when you do cross that line.

Since I don’t have the experience of recovering in these situations alone in the Porsche, I also do not have the confidence of knowing that I can recover the car alone in those situations. Intellectually, I know I can deal with them (in fact, I am reacting correctly and faster than the PSM system is even on high speed catches) but still the PSM is robbing me of the psychological reinforcement of that fact. With the Porsche I just have an intellectual level knowledge that I am driving the car very well.

That feeling for the Audi is a much deeper psychological knowledge that I am driving well. It makes me feel much more self-confident and willing to push the car harder. And ultimately, to be fast, you need to not only be smooth but also to push yourself.

Stephen

Dave in Chicago

Ditto Dan's comments on John's post above.

Do you remember YOUR first DE? All you want to do is NOT look stupid and NOT hit anything. It's all a blurr and even the most attentive student will absorb a limited amount in that one day. The theory and "connect the dots" discussion is perfect over a cool beverage when all the driving's done.

I will comment on part one of the original post. All the newbies are indeed showing up in much faster cars. All the more reason to bring folks on slowly. It amazed me how little I knew about driving after a couple of decades behind the wheel. Four years at 20-25 track days per year has been an eye-opener.

In the region, we suggest folks hit the Autocross School first (intro to "feel for the car"), one of the shorter tracks next (Blackhawk or Gingerman), and only then attend the in-car and classroom sessions at Road America. I've seen too many cars there chirping around the track with PSM and ABS in full tilt, only to see them ball up on the inside wall in Turn 12 or 14.

fc-racer

The problems you all describe could easily be solved by making all new DE participants attend a good auto-x school. My local club www.vcmc.ca has an excellent program called Velocity www.vcmc.ca/velocity/velocity.html that teaches you car control. The school has the famous Gary Milligan and Joe Cheng teaching the classroom and being the senior instructors of the program.

Once graduated through that program, any student would be considered acceptable in my eyes on a large track. Best of all, they would understand the terms you are trying to speak to them about as well as understand what their cars will do in extremes.

I think it's crazy to allow the different experience levels on the track at once. Everyone should have at least a certain minimum level of experience.

mitch236

I would hope that your clubs are not mixing completely differing levels on the track at once. Most clubs have two instructor based groups, beginner and novice.

Many folks, myself included, have no interest in auto-x.

Al P.

Our region has six classes or groups

instructed:
Green - beginner
yellow - beginner with some experience
blue - novice

non-instructed
white - intermediate
black - advanced
red - instructors

There are times where green/yellow run together and the same with blue/white.

our version of what you're referring to as an "auto-x school" is our "car control clinic". I would imagine they're similar, skid pad, slalom, braking exercises. We don't require this as a pre-requisite to DE but it is strongly recommended. Potomac I belive does require attendance at this type of event prior to being allowed to sign up for the track.

mitch236

NNJR, from what I've heard is a very well run organization. I like your setup. We also have skid pad and control clinics but usually as an adjunct to the beginner DE event.

smokey

At UCR, the Skid School, including time on the training track, dealing with turning after full lock up on a teflon pad, and car control on a skid pad including induced spins and driving by the throttle with the wheel on full opposite lock, is mandatory before going on the Big Track.

JoelG

last friday I instructed at Friday At The Track, a one day school put on by the people that own Summit Point Raceway. I've instructed at FATT for several years and never really had a bad experience. Unlike all the car clubs I instruct for, there are no assigned instructors at FATT. Students line up on the false grid and instructors walk down the line and match themselves up.

After lunch I jumped in a late model bmw 330i, made the usual introductions: any mods, how much experience, what are your goals, any problems. Turned out to be a first timer which meant by then he had at least 2 on-track sessions already. He didn't have much else to say. He was using a loaner helmet from the track and my headset wouldn't stay in it. In retrospect I should have declined to instruct him at that point but I stayed in the car anyway. We rolled out and by the second lap he was getting into DSC (BMW equiv. of PSM) in most of the corners. I gave him a couple of laps hoping he'd settle down but it didn't happen. I pulled him into the pits and gave him the strongest lecture I've ever given a student. After that he settled down and started hitting or at least trying to hit the marks and the session ended up OK but its not an experience I have any interest in repeating.

The leasons for me are:

1. If the student can't use the communicator, then I'm not instructing him.

2. If stability control comes on in 2 corners in 1 lap, then we are coming into the pits for a talk.

joel

Greg Fishman

Joel,
I won't disagree with you on 99% of what you say but the BMW DSC is much different than the PSM. I hate to say it, but even with a beginer (except for a rainy track) I would probably turn it off.