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this isn't the league where a competitor can buy your car for $XXXX if you win ?
Lemons had a claim rule but it only applied to the organizers and IIRC they only ever used it once on some 3rd gen Camaro with a NASCAR motor in it
Lemons also had a crush rule where the paddock voted to crush a car every race
But once the cars started costing WAY more than the $500 due to their increasing safety standards (requiring expensive roll cages etc) they dropped it. Cars were too valuable to crush.
Air tools certainly aren’t an advantage and I don’t understand why R3R crew runs them, considering my battery operated impacts I use at home work better than my air tools and I’m not trying to drag a hose with me...
Air tools certainly aren’t an advantage and I don’t understand why R3R crew runs them, considering my battery operated impacts I use at home work better than my air tools and I’m not trying to drag a hose with me...
I thought battery powered tools were not allowed over the wall where fuel is involved
I've run a few races with R3R in 2019 so I'll toss in my 2 cents here. My views, and my views alone. I've also written and re-written this and I'm still not sure it's coming out how I want it to....
It's not about the win. It's about the fun and effort to get there. The cars are well prepared and built but they are NOT the fastest thing on track. It's generally been a game of attrition, consistency, and Tortoise-vs-the-Hare strategy.
These guys all LOVE RACING. What they don't love? All the BS that usually goes along with it, especially at the Pro level. Sponsorships, politics, manufacturers, rules, 7-8 figure budgets.... all that clouds over the love and fun of it.
Lemons is still all about the "spectacle". Goofy themes, stuff bolted to the roof, costumes, "heroic fixes" with duct tape, etc. If by "roots" you're referring to the COSTS... well... it ain't what it used to be.
I started racing motorcycles when I was young - early/mid teens. Culminated with a few Pro seasons in my 20s - the cost was just unsustainable, even with significant sponsorship - and I spent most of my 30s digging out of the financial hole I left myself with. I co-founded a Lemons team back late 2009 with 5 other friends, eager to get back to racing and thought I'd found an avenue to do it cheaply. We built a 944. We spent the first 3? seasons not even finishing a race - constant mechanical failures. We broke and fixed lots of things in the paddock - radiators, cylinder heads, head gaskets, transmissions, alternators, fuel pumps...
My team kinda got sick of it. We were in it for the racing FIRST. Lemons however wanted to see costumes, jokes, cars breaking, heroic fixes, duct tape, etc. We didn't fit that mold - we started putting more time in PREPPING the car ahead of time, so we could just RACE once we got to the track. We practiced our pit stops. Fueling. Tire changes. Driver changes. I spent hours preparing driver and crew schedules and assignments. For real - if you want to run all weekend and not fix crap, and run at or towards the front - that's what it takes. And I'm 100% certain the other front-running teams did the same. You had to nail everything perfectly if you wanted to be at or near the top in the end. A single penalty would cost you! If you had a true "team of idiots" who won the overall with a complete piece of crap - it was likely because some crazy bad luck had befallen the other teams ahead of them.
For us - it got to the point where, if the car DID break? We just packed it up and went home. We'd managed to pick up a few wins and lots of podiums before the car met it's eventual demise when one of our drivers spun and hit a wall. By that point, Lemons was no longer "cheap" racing. For being a turd of a car we had a LOT of money dumped into it to keep it running. When we built the car, it had an Autopower bolt-in cage. A cheap seat. A tired motor. The whole car was done on the cheap. As time progressed, rules changed. Safety requirements increased. We had to look for ways to improve the performance as the front runners (mostly E30 BMWs) were destroying us everywhere, and being racers first, we wanted to at least TRY to get up to the front. We kept going but it was getting ridiculous. It was now a very well built crap can.
By the end? Average all-in weekend costs were ~$1,500 per person - and we had a 6 person team. (Note that includes fuel, tires, oil, lodging, snacks and meals, and costs involved with pre-race prep and post-race repairs and refreshes). Conversing with other teams in our region who we'd battled with? They were about the same once they really put some thought into it.
Lemons definitely had it's share of talent. My 2nd-ever Lemons race? A team showed up with a car built by Fall Line. Drivers lineup included Randy Pobst, Cooper MacNeil, Mark Boden.... big big names. My team thought it was cool AF. Each time I got lapped I hoped my GoPro had recorded it clearly so I could show my friends. They definitely got hammered with penalty laps... in Lemons, a well built car that's problem-free (so the drivers can drive) isn't what their primary goal is.
Correct. With R3R it's a fresh set for each day. We did the same when we had our Lemons team - usually a fresh set overnight, so this is not something unusual, especially if you were up front. At Barber the R3R mid-race tire change was to swap from a set that worked better in the rain to a set that worked better in the dry.
And 100% agreed with the SUN group. I'm glad R3R partnered with them. Great group of girls with a great attitude and they definitely got the skills!!
All of the guys at R3R (team owners, crew) are doing this for the love of racing. They LOVE IT! The techs all have day jobs and go back to work on Monday... they usually high-tail it to the airport for a redeye flight once the trailer is packed up on Sunday. Buz has been doing this since the 80s. His son (and team principal) Brad was raised at the track. They've been through the worst of "racing Pro" - TransAm, IMSA, NASCAR, etc. and all the headaches therein. From my own history of racing Pro on 2 wheels... it can be very easy to get bogged down in the BS and lose sight of the fun. Frankly it's one of the reasons I quit myself (and for years dove heavy into sim racing) - it was a full time job just running the team (which was mostly myself and 1 other guy... we had occasionally picked up 2 others for some events.). Staying on top of sponsors, rules, contingency, politics, what the manufacturers wanted, keeping the vehicles maintained and prepped and ready.... it was a job. And it was probably 10:1 hours spent on "admin and prep" vs actually RACING.
So R3R in it's current form came about specifically to bring back the fun. It's still racing, still want to be competitive and towards the front. But it's not serious enough to lose the fun. Even on the worst day, with a crash or mechanical or just not finding the pace - everybody is having a great time. Nobody is worried about how to spin it to the press, how to spin it to sponsors, etc. It's still FUN. Buz and Brad took the BEST parts of the weekend and threw away the worst. And fortunate for them, they've had enough personal success in life to afford to put up their own money to start this thing - and then invite in people to share in it. I won't go into what they charge per driver BUT it's NOT far off from what I would've spent with my old Lemons team to split the weekend 3 ways instead of 6... and it's a much better car, I don't get my hands dirty, and I can relax and enjoy the weekend. It's also SIGNIFICANTLY LESS than what you might spend at a PCA Club Race weekend if you paid for full support and were running at the front of any of the classes that has some hefty talent (GTBx classes, etc.). And you still probably get double+ the track time.
The pro drivers that have run with R3R have been there for a multitude of reasons. First - because they also love racing! These guys will get behind the wheel any chance they get. Off weekend? They're looking for SOME kind of racing. Some of them brought students along to share a car with. Some just showed up and asked, "Hey can I drive?" They don't want to drive a rusted out Thunderbird, no matter how quick (and seriously, given the choice, who would??). But they don't want to put up the cost to get a seat in a GT3 Cup for the weekend. It's the perfect opportunity. Plus, if you're running a 3-driver car? You're potentially looking at 6-8 HOURS of track time per driver over the course of the weekend!
To address this and continue my previous point: I can promise you that NONE of the podiums achieved by R3R were "total dominations". If that were the case - I know I wouldn't be on the team. I don't want to STOMP the field either. And I can assure you, neither does anyone else. Every race I've been a part of with R3R - it's been very, very hard fought battles. The ChampCar field definitely has it's share of total n00bs... but it also has a pretty deep pool of very talented drivers. If a Pro showed up at a PCA race and had a hotly contested 3-4-5 car battle for the lead the entire race? They may very well NOT pull off. And if I were one of the PCA guys battling with them? I sure AF wouldn't WANT them to pull off! I'd want to (a) beat them fair and square or (b) see just how close I could come!!
With Champ, sure, it's not a "pro" series and it's largely filled with "amateur" drivers - but it's NOT like, unless you're a team with a "pro" - you don't stand a chance. This past weekend at Barber was, I believe, the **first** overall win for R3R. I also believe it was the **first** time they've set Fastest Lap (which I remind you was crushed the next day by Tuttle). The Boxsters are NOT the fastest cars out there. They handle well, and they stop well, and they are well driven by hand-selected driver lineups based on ability by the team principal to ensure the best results. Ever seen the movie Moneyball? Same concept. There are other teams out there with MUCH faster cars. There are other teams with serious talent that don't have a Pro license. There are other teams out there aside from R3R with pro or former pro drivers. Heck the three guys I've shared my car with at the events I've done did not have Pro licenses - and we delivered several Podium finishes for R3R. In fact, if you don't mind my bragging a little - each time, we've actually BEATEN the other R3R cars that WERE piloted by current PWC and IMSA pro's!
I don't know if this accurately conveyed my sentiments.... but I'm tired of re-writing this, and wanted to address it.
I appreciate what you are saying and perhaps I see a little more of your side. I just know from experience that it is the very rare gentlemen driver who can run with pro drivers. They are out there, and I am fortunate to have raced with a bunch of them, but there is a large difference.
If I was competitive against a pro driver in a race would I want them to pull off? I agree - hell no!
As is the way with the internet my post was full of assumptions. If you have some close racing than Godspeed. If you are lapping the field than you are just making it less fun for other people.
Hopefully from your post it looks like people are having fun and are competitive against your team.
Hi LuigiVampa, appreciate what you are saying and perhaps I see a little more of your side. I just know from experience that it is the very rare gentlemen driver who can run with pro drivers. They are out there, and I am fortunate to have raced with a bunch of them, but there is a large difference.
This is "the way it was" in SCCA TransAm racing and IMSA Camel GT racing in the 1970's. The independent racers against the sponsored teams. It was fun. The challenge was to finish and sometimes you got a podium finish. There were good and excellent independent racers. The differentiator was $$$$ which transferred to better suspension setup, better brakes, and more hp engines,
not necessarily reliability.
I appreciate what you are saying and perhaps I see a little more of your side. I just know from experience that it is the very rare gentlemen driver who can run with pro drivers. They are out there, and I am fortunate to have raced with a bunch of them, but there is a large difference.
If I was competitive against a pro driver in a race would I want them to pull off? I agree - hell no!
As is the way with the internet my post was full of assumptions. If you have some close racing than Godspeed. If you are lapping the field than you are just making it less fun for other people.
Hopefully from your post it looks like people are having fun and are competitive against your team.
. #cheers and Happy Holidays man!
Not all drivers with talent have the funding, connections, or time, to actually "go pro". Merely having the talent isn't enough. Even getting access to a test day often requires some kind of connection - a personal referral, etc. from someone of influence to someone of influence. If you're a guy who grew up very disconnected from racing (no family, friends, etc.... rural area, whatever) it can be hard, even with boatloads of natural talent, to get a door opened.
And in some cases, they may actively choose NOT to go pro. Another one of the BIG reasons I quit racing pro back in the day - health insurance. I'd learned, much to my surprise, that racing "pro"... with "pro" being short for "professional", whose root word is "profession".... meant my corporate health insurance in fact DID NOT COVER ME if I were to get hurt at a pro event. Because that level is considered "a profession". Getting hurt was, essentially, like getting "hurt on the job" - you were expected to have your own insurance for that. After several BIG injuries (and probably half a million dollars worth of medical bills).... it was enough to scare me out of it. As far as anyone is concerned, I consider myself lucky that all my injuries were sustained at "club" events.
Originally Posted by sbelles
Air tools don't make sparks like electric.
Originally Posted by stujelly
I thought battery powered tools were not allowed over the wall where fuel is involved
Ah. That is an excellent point. You're likely correct. Tho I'm still pretty certain I've actually seen battery operated tools used while on the hot pit by other teams. Perhaps there's a carveout in the rules that bans them during fueling. I'm pretty sure the ONLY thing you're allowed to do WHILE fueling on pit lane is change drivers. That might be why.
I'm also not a crew member in this series so I haven't paid close enough attention to what those rules are.
Figured I would chime in here and also cover some of the misconceptions. I have driven multiple races this year in the R3R boxsters and want to make sure people understand how far away from being the class killer cars they are. This year, not ONE race weekend were the R3R cars the fastest time of the weekend in C class with driver line ups that include Johan Schwartz (current PWC TC national champ), Josh Bilicki (who not only drives for Nascar but also was racing at his home track of Road America where he has won countless races), Dan Clarke (former Champ Car open wheel driver, A1GP, Indy Car driver who drove the car at Indy (his home track), and my personal driving coach that I assure you will be quicker than any of us in our own personal cars...he was faster than me in my own race car multiple times), Jack Baldwin (25 time 24hr of Daytona vet, multiple time pro series national champion), Pippa Mann (Indy Car Driver), and several other random pro drivers. These drivers are more experienced than all of us and not one got an FTD for the weekend.
I was in the car at Road America with a teammate Mike Gilbert who but for budget could be driving pro too. We were winning the first day when we had a wheel stud sheer off and Champ Car kept us in the pits for about ten mins for safety concerns. We ended up in second. I can tell you that the Nissans that beat us both days at Road America had 10mph on us down the straights. They were well driven and also drove flawless races but we drove our assess off to be able to podium the cars. I can tell you the R3R cars are well prepared and they brake exceptional but they are not by any means the killer car for the series. I have raced go karts, cars, etc for nearly 20 years now. I have driven everything from lemons all the way through club racing and will hopefully be doing some PWC/IMSA racing next year. Everything from Lemons to Pro Racing has teams with different budgets. I can tell you towards the top of the Champ Car series there are some really tough drivers and some really well prepared cars. I have been nose to tail fighting against really good amateurs and also fighting against some pro drivers all year long. When people see a Porsche badge in anything Lemons, Champcar, or even NASA there is this thought that the Porsches should be killing the competition. Lets not forget a 2.5L boxster is not necessarily a speed demon of a race car.
What has been awesome about the R3R program is that I know I am jumping into a well prepared car (meaning it will not break 2 hours in and I wont be stuck wrenching the entire weekend...for those of you that know me, you do not want me wrenching anyways). I know the cars are incredibly safe. Racing is dangerous no matter what form you participate in, but lets be honest when the driver skill gap is wide, the chances for wrecks can increase. I also have genuinely loved getting to know everyone on the team. They are incredible folks, fun to be around, and have made racing very enjoyable at a bargain. I sold my GTB1 car because I was having a hell of a hard time getting it competitive/reliable and took this last year to do a lot of soul searching on what I want to do as a driver. R3R gave me the opportunity to drive at a lot of different tracks, in a well prepped, correctly competitive car, on a budget that was far lower than anything I would have done club racing (let alone pro racing). I walked into last season without a race car and borderline depressed. I came out of this past season having some of the most fun I have had racing (along with making a lot of great friends both on the team and in the series).
Edit: Also in all the weekends I drove with R3R. Only two times did we do a tire swap mid race. Once was at the true 24hour of VIR where we did ONE tire swap and ran nearly 16 hours on the first set. The second was at Road America at the request of my teammate and I offering to buy an extra set trying to chase down first place. We had driven the tires practically off the car trying to win. So in 8 races I did this year only twice did we use more than a set for each race. Again just trying to clear up some misconceptions.
The sister car, #601, was co-piloted by Indy 500 driver Pippa Mann, Mazda MX5 star Sarah Montgomery, Loni Unser, and pro Mike Smith...who drove the first shift in monsoon-like conditions.
With that singular pit stop, the once-affordable ChampCar Series officially joined the arms race that has polluted so many other forms of auto racing and made them... ultimately... unaffordable.
Well written initial post with a few incorrect facts. Mike Smith here, I drove the #601 at Barber. While I appreciate the comment, I am not a pro driver, or if I am the paycheck is going to the wrong bank account.
The air guns have no consequence to the outcome of the race. Champcar has mandatory 5 minute pit stops (when a car takes fuel) a non-pro team can somewhat easily fuel and change 4 tires in a 5 minute stop with a cordless impact wrench. This was not a game changer for the series.
Haulers don't win races. Lots of smaller teams still do well.
Last edited by Skierman64; 11-30-2019 at 12:25 AM.
ChampCar CEO Mike Chisek goes on YouTube and threatens to "ban from the club forever" anyone who criticizes ChampCar.
"If you go online and make comments about it," he warns, "It could be your last."
Late to this thread, but I've raced against R3R in ChampCar, and been fortunate enough to actually win some ChampCar races, both in class and overall (C and EC cars). Just wanted to share my perspective.
The guys I race with don't see a problem with R3R. In fact, we like the professionalism they bring to the grid and to the overall series. To us, that kind of professionalism is a positive differentiator compared to the intentional "casualness" of Lucky Dog (the competing series out West). I've never understood Lemons, so can't comment on it.
The ChampCar system is simple. Everyone has to keep their car below 500 points (or take penalty laps), deal with the 5min pitstop minimum, and run street tires. That system works for us. It lets us compete with a pro team like R3R in relatively cheap BMWs.
ChampCar CEO Mike Chisek goes on YouTube and threatens to "ban from the club forever" anyone who criticizes ChampCar.
"If you go online and make comments about it," he warns, "It could be your last."
And that entire string was also directed at a handful of individuals who repeatedly stir the pot.
Criticism is one thing. Repeated calls of conspiracy theory and riling up those who are otherwise fine generating a lynch mob which overall threatens the organization and some of its members and customers is quite another.
Well written initial post with a few incorrect facts. Mike Smith here, I drove the #601 at Barber. While I appreciate the comment, I am not a pro driver, or if I am the paycheck is going to the wrong bank account.
The air guns have no consequence to the outcome of the race. Champcar has mandatory 5 minute pit stops (when a car takes fuel) a non-pro team can somewhat easily fuel and change 4 tires in a 5 minute stop with a cordless impact wrench. This was not a game changer for the series.
Haulers don't win races. Lots of smaller teams still do well.
What may shock you is how many Pro drivers are actually cutting checks, not receiving them!
ChampCar CEO Mike Chisek goes on YouTube and threatens to "ban from the club forever" anyone who criticizes ChampCar.
"If you go online and make comments about it," he warns, "It could be your last."
Ban verbiage starts at 8:30. Video could have been two minutes long instead of meandering for over ten minutes.
On the one hand I understand that Champ Car is a business and he wants to protect the business. On the other hand, this is a hobby for every participant, so enforcing some Orwellian group-think restrictions is out of line.
In the future I am looking to do an AER or Champ Car race because I heard it is a ton of fun. Respectfully questioning a series or competitor, and getting banned for it, is not the right course of action unless the comments are totally out of line.
Was my original comment totally out of line? I don't think so. But maybe according to Champ Car I would be banned in the future? I think this video is an overreaction.
11-27-2019 | 07:41 PM
