liability insurance for HPDE do we need it?
07-24-2019, 03:23 PM
#16
Instructor
Thread Starter
I recall something about a car entering the track and crossing quickly into the "fast" line instead of staying within a blend line, causing the CGT to have to take evasive action at high speed and then crashing as a result. And possibly some error at pit out in sending the car out during the session with the rapidly approaching CGT. But I might be remembering incorrectly. If either of those things happened, it's not a crazy stretch to see why those actions might have been deemed negligent.
I think the plaintiffs strategy, was to pick the easy target, the estate of CGT driver who having succumbed in the accident has no way of presenting his version of events, on top of that the grieving widow is likely to hurry a settlement, thus lawyer gets paid quickly with minimal effort.
Not fair, easy to blame the dead guy for this perfect storm of events in which many parties had significant responsibility, other than Porsche no one had his back, RIP.
07-24-2019, 03:37 PM
#17
Race Director
I wonder how or if track event organizers like Chin, PCA and the others will address this and the latest Chin track day incident at VIR? I understand things happen and will happen on a race track.
07-24-2019, 06:41 PM
#19
Instructor
Thread Starter
Top tracks and operators would benefit from striving for a top safety record.
I wonder if there is a benefit from having an independent expert analyze and grade track safety, systems and layout as well as procedures, handbooks, and instruction that organizers provide to entrants.
Then provide a report that could be presented to insurance carriers, this might reduce event costs, or at least slow the increases.
07-24-2019, 06:44 PM
#20
Instructor
Thread Starter
I am not a lawyer but I have been an event organizer for many years. I have had more conversations than I can count with attorneys, insurance carriers and risk managers about participant and organizational liability and how to mitigate it. The key finding in the CA case was that there was gross negligence from several parties. No liability waiver or insurance policy will protect against gross negligence (loosely defined as "doing something stupid" and legally along the lines of "what a reasonable person would deem to be unsafe"). However, as an event participant you are already covered by the organizer's liability policy - that's why you sign the waiver. It is also why responsible organizers are sticklers for safety rules - the rules are there to protect everyone against liability provided you follow the rules. If you willfully ignore the rules, then you can be deemed grossly negligent and you are no longer covered by the organizer's policy and likely not covered by any personal policy. I actually had this conversation this past weekend with a student at our event. It is easy to think that going outside the rules will be acceptable because you assume that everything will be ok. However, the rules are there for the very rare times when things go sideways. Follow the rules and you are protected.
So, yes you can take passengers for rides but (1) be sure he/she has signed both the track and organization waivers; (2) is properly attired and has a helmet that fits; (3) dial your driving back a little bit; (4) don't do anything stupid.
Getting a ride with an instructor is what got me hooked into the sport and I know that rides I have given have resulted in new students for our events.
So, yes you can take passengers for rides but (1) be sure he/she has signed both the track and organization waivers; (2) is properly attired and has a helmet that fits; (3) dial your driving back a little bit; (4) don't do anything stupid.
Getting a ride with an instructor is what got me hooked into the sport and I know that rides I have given have resulted in new students for our events.
This great info , thanks
07-24-2019, 09:52 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
My concern is this:
"the event organizer was the most affected", "when he informed his insurance agent that he might be sued as the organizer of the event, his homeowner’s insurance company immediately filed suit against him, seeking a determination that his policy did not cover him."
I need to check my umbrella policy that it does not have fine print that nullifies coverage against "negligence" or "gross negligence"
"the event organizer was the most affected", "when he informed his insurance agent that he might be sued as the organizer of the event, his homeowner’s insurance company immediately filed suit against him, seeking a determination that his policy did not cover him."
I need to check my umbrella policy that it does not have fine print that nullifies coverage against "negligence" or "gross negligence"
07-25-2019, 12:16 AM
#22
Instructor
Thread Starter
07-25-2019, 09:36 AM
#23
Instructor
Thread Starter
-saftey ? 928 was designed at time of Nader and anticipated 50 mph barrier crashes
-reliability ? 928 has a 300,000 mile motor
-slow? my first and only time at Gingerman was pointed by a GT2 driver
my second time on track i hit 138 mph at NCM at T15 (in an m5 since my 928 was getting timing belt replaced)
the fastest c7 Zo6 650hp running 2 groups higher could only hit 127 mph at T15
Last edited by bertram928; 07-25-2019 at 12:57 PM.
07-25-2019, 05:10 PM
#24
I have found no homeowners policy or personal liability umbrella that lists racing as an insured activity.
My research has shown that you have to rely on the organizer to buy the proper policy since it is the only one that protect you. That organization needs to be big enough with a deep brain trust to manage all its working parts to protect participants on and off the track.
07-25-2019, 09:53 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
You are essentially correct and I should have included that caveat. You do not need to be named individually as an Additional Insured - the policy should protect all event participants. Stick with national organizations with the experience to be sure policies are proper.
07-26-2019, 10:35 AM
#26
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This is only true if the event organizer policy lists the participant as an "additional insured." I have only run with maybe 10 groups over last 20 years and only the SCCA policy lists participants as additional insured. I am sure there are other good polices perhaps NASA, POC, PCA clubs with a racing group. I have never seen participants as additional insureds in low end HPDE clubs or occasional track days via FOC. That is why the Ferrari drive got the $90k judgement against him.
I have found no homeowners policy or personal liability umbrella that lists racing as an insured activity.
My research has shown that you have to rely on the organizer to buy the proper policy since it is the only one that protect you. That organization needs to be big enough with a deep brain trust to manage all its working parts to protect participants on and off the track.
I have found no homeowners policy or personal liability umbrella that lists racing as an insured activity.
My research has shown that you have to rely on the organizer to buy the proper policy since it is the only one that protect you. That organization needs to be big enough with a deep brain trust to manage all its working parts to protect participants on and off the track.
This is a great and really important discussion thread. I am Ben Phillips, the founder of OpenTrack and we have built an insurance platform for serious drivers. About a year ago, for all the exact reasons mentioned in this thread and post I am quoting, we launched the first and only on-track liability policy for individuals who track.
We were always baffled by the idea that all parties at the track could buy insurance and transfer risk except the individuals who are actually driving on-track and are the lifeblood of the sport. So we built coverage to solve that problem and fill the gap.
Our liability policy protects drivers in the event they are responsible for damage to both individuals (bodily injury) as well as property (other cars on-track or track property). So it is a very comprehensive coverage and offers the protection that is missing from personal liability policies (i.e. umbrella) away from the track.
Visit OpenTrack.com to check it out. $1M or $2M of coverage is available on both an annual basis as well as daily.
Happy to answer any questions.
Thanks,
BP
__________________
Visit OpenTrack.com for Annual Membership & On-Demand Daily Insurance. OpenTrack Annual Membership includes unlimited track-day insurance for 12 months and automatic enrollment in Drive Better, our free driver coaching program with pro-driver Andy Lee. As an Annual Member, you receive unlimited 1:1 coaching with Andy, invites to exclusive group coaching sessions and webinars, on-demand video content, track guides & pro-tips.
Physical Damage and Liability coverage available.
Visit OpenTrack.com for Annual Membership & On-Demand Daily Insurance. OpenTrack Annual Membership includes unlimited track-day insurance for 12 months and automatic enrollment in Drive Better, our free driver coaching program with pro-driver Andy Lee. As an Annual Member, you receive unlimited 1:1 coaching with Andy, invites to exclusive group coaching sessions and webinars, on-demand video content, track guides & pro-tips.
Physical Damage and Liability coverage available.
The following 2 users liked this post by OpenTrack:
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07-26-2019, 10:44 AM
#27
Three Wheelin'
I've always driven with well-established trackway orgs like PCA because I've felt better protected by the insurance they carry for their events. Anyone here familiar with the details of coverage for various trackway organizations? It would be interesting to know.
07-26-2019, 12:49 PM
#28
Do your people read and seek the policys of the organizations your driver would attend to see if they are listed as additional insureds or insured as participants and therefore lower your driver premium to reflect this coverage or do you have more of a 1 price per track day regardless of organizer?
07-26-2019, 02:03 PM
#29
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Do your people read and seek the policys of the organizations your driver would attend to see if they are listed as additional insureds or insured as participants and therefore lower your driver premium to reflect this coverage or do you have more of a 1 price per track day regardless of organizer?
Because the coverage is built to be the primary coverage, we charge the same flat amount regardless of the organizer.
07-26-2019, 05:14 PM
#30
Great question. So our coverage is actually designed to be the primary liability insurance. Any coverage that may or may not be provided by the track day organizer would be secondary.
Because the coverage is built to be the primary coverage, we charge the same flat amount regardless of the organizer.
Because the coverage is built to be the primary coverage, we charge the same flat amount regardless of the organizer.