a4944

I took the 951 to VIR Full this last weekend. I had a great time and the car handled well. The driver still has room to improve though.

The engine is stock except for Autothority Stage II chips. See my signature for suspension mods. I'm running stock sized Kuhmo MX treet tires. I don't feel like I can push this car as hard through corners as I did with a lower power AWD A4 that I have. My main concern is the turbo lag and the non-linear power curve and RWD. It feels like the back end will come around (it did once but curbing was involved) if I get on the boost to hard or early in the turn so I have to give up some speed through the turn to get the power down out of the turn.

I would appreciate any tips on getting through turns faster with a 944 Turbo or any other RWD turbo. I think I can push the car harder than I am once I learn how to manage the throttle better.

Thanks,
Mark

mitch236

I can only give you the same advice that has worked for me. Smooth is the key. There is something call the proceedure. It goes like this. You first go around the track finding the braking threshold. Once you know how much braking is available, you then start SLOWLY moving your braking point deeper (a few feet at a time) until you cannot make the apex, then go back to the previous point that was good. The same can be done with your acceleration point, a little earlier each time until you cannot reach your apex then back off to the previous point that was good. All the while you must be smooth. Track driving is like ice skating. You can either be a hockey skater and always be on the edge, which feels faster but isn't, or you can be a figure skater and glide around the track.

turbite

My tip would be to go to the dyno first and make sure the air/fuel ratio is okay with those autothority chips before you track it. (Mine was not)

Having a blown head gasket can hurt your laptimes.

dmoffitt

i'd suggest something like a yokohama avs sport or a032r (or even the ES100) - kumho (excpet the victoracer and even those aren't GREAT) is absolute junk from my experience, on a variety of cars under a variety of conditions (track, autox, street, you name it. fwd, rwd, awd....) - then again if you are having trouble w/ body roll as you mentioned in the other thread, tire-grip is not your worst problem... perhaps a bilstein escort suspension or ledas or maybe jrz / ohlins ($$ tho)? also - bushings... but most of the aformentioned setups include something in that regard.

i too am still learning, one other thing - DON'T MAKE MY MISTAKE - don't build a car with very high limits only to realize you've exceeded your driving skill long before realizing where the car will loose it.

oh yeah. and turbite's right, autothority = scary AFR

Z-man

How much track experience do you have total?

-Z.

RedlineMan

Hey;

If you are talking about driving well, or going for a fastest lap, I don't personally feel late braking has anything to do with it (depending on the corner). In fact, I think it makes you slower in general. Being fast out by yourself is about NOT braking!

Late braking is what you do when you race because nobody wants to back off first and give the other guy a "perceived advantage" going in. He who brakes latest will usually control the corner, but only if he does not over do it and ruin his exit.

Driving a Turbo does not necessarily have to be that different. Learning how to manage the boost is obviously key. Knowing how it works by experimenting with its application - both in style and timing - is obviously key.

In general, if you ease into the throttle, boost comes on progressively and smoothly. If you mash the throttle, boost comes on like a house-a-fire, particularly with a good chip. The key is utilizing this and applying it to the right corners.

I generally feel that getting in the throttle early is just as important for Turbo drivers as for NA drivers, but for slightly different reasons. We NA's don't have that power surge. We are trying desperately to KEEP momentum. Turbos should be looking to mitigate that WHACK by easing in the throttle early so that it builds progressivley and comes on controllably around the apex area.

For instance, a fast sweeper like turn 10 at Watkins or NASCAR or South Bend at VIR will work with an early moderate brake, carrying a lot of momentum in, and smoothly applying early throttle to get boost early and keep it from spiking suddenly. Turn 1 at VIR will require very gradual, early throttle. Try to get the car rotated early so that when boost strikes, you have track out applenty when the car wants to push accross the track. You might actually benefit from late/trail braking to help this.

Whatcha think?

a4944

I run in advanced group. Redline, turn one at VIR is the turn where I feel like I should be getting more out of the car. It's the turns where I feel like I should drift out to the trackout. I don't feel like I can use power to drift in this car, it may rotate. I'll find a large parking lot and try some of these suggestions. I need a safe place to find the limits.

Do you guys tend to late apex to get on the power or drive a momentum line? I've been experimenting with different lines. I'm referring to turns that feed a straight, not turns that immediatly feed other turns.

I've read that Autothority Stage II chips are OK if you use the banjo bolt and everything else is stock. It is what it was tuned for. This is my setup. Have you guys heard different?

Thanks,
Mark

mitch236

Z-Man, I never advocated late braking. Don't read that into my post. I agree that late braking is slower. Correct braking is fastest and that is what the "proceedure" teaches. While carying momentum into turns is not as critical in a turbo as compared to the NA it still is importatnt. These cars bog down when not on boost. Using the second part of the proceedure is about finding the correct throttle. When to come on and how much to use. There is no substitute for precision and accuracy.

Racing is a whole other issue, when overall speed is sacrificed for position protection and overtaking.

Z-man

Mark,
Have you played with the left foot braking technique at all? I don't drive a turbo, but my understanding is that by using LFB, a driver of a turbo car can slow the car enough while still keeping revs up and boost on. Perhaps this will help you get out of turn 1 @ VIR faster. (And minimize your fears from spinning something more than your turbo-charger! )

-Z-man.

Al P.

Hmmm... Z just asked about experience, Hajny made the comment about braking

Sorry Mitch just wanted to keep the players straight

Al P.

of course while I'm typing Z is advocating a technique explained and utilized by a rather famous "turbo" driver

mitch236

Oops, sorry Z-man. I do agree with the left foot braking although it is an advanced technique, not to be tried first at the track. Practice this one on the street..... away from traffic first!!

Z-man

Yeah, I wasn't sure why you were addressing me, but oh well....

Since Mark (aka a4944) runs in the advanced run groups, and he has experience with an A4 (which I assume has the 1.8 turbo powerplant) he probably wouldn't have a problem with left foot braking. (Right Mark?)

BTW: If you ever want to see heel-and-toe and left-foot braking in action, take a ride with Eugene Hahn from NNJR / PCA. Black 944 Turbo, stripped (Dash and center console removed, so you can see the fancy footwork). His feet look like something choreographed for Mikhail Baryshnikov.

Al P: Thanks for keeping everyone in order!!! Famous turbo driver: you mean Mr. Elford? I'm still can't believe he was here last week!

-Z-man.

a4944

I drove the Audi 2.8, not the 1.8 Turbo. Left foot braking is a good idea to keep the revs up. I have not played around with left foot braking much. I need to practice that more on the street. I could toss the AWD Audi into a turn too fast, stay on the gas, and let the slide bleed off speed. Instructors hated it but it kept the RPMs up. I developed a few bad habits with that car. I have to adjust my driving style with the Porsche. I'm doing VIR South next. It has some slower turns that are good for praticing left foot braking.

Thanks,
Mark

Brian P

Reverse the order of those two and I would agree 100%. I.e., first learn the correct amount of throttle and how fast you can enter a corner. Once you are 100% positive that you can't take the corner any faster, then start working on the braking to get you down to that level.

I only have about 50 days of DE experience, so take that into account for my statements.... When I tried doing things in the order that you suggested (and I tried that for about the first 45 days of DE), I could feel myself getting slightly faster from event to event, but the gains were marginal at best.

When I switched the order around (the last 5 days), and concentrated on the corner entry speed first and braking earlier and lighter, I took MANY seconds off of my lap times. As I entered the corner more well balanced, I was amazed at how fast I could really take the corner. Only when I was somewhat sure that I couldn't go faster did I start working on the braking.

Now, for you, your order might make sense. As an advanced driver, you probably have a good sense of how fast you can take a corner. For a beginning or intermediate driver, working on the braking first is a bit backwards (again, IMHO).