Geo

LOL!

OK, I have to agree, that sometimes it does seem that way.

What class were you looking at?

On behalf of the SCCA I would like to apologize for your treatment. While I'm just a ad hoc committee member, I (and most of those I know who volunteer for the SCCA) abhor such treatment of people. For sure there have been those who like their little fiefdom and act as such.

It shouldn't be that way and I believe Steve Johnson is really trying to change things for the better at the SCCA. I know there is change in the air. Just the simple fact of recognizing the competition licenses of other organizations (including PCA) is a big and IMHO great step in that direction. POC license holders get their schools waived and are given a novice permit which can be upgraded after two races.

I do hope you try again. I would be very willing to either help you sort out the rule book, or put you in touch with someone with better knowledge of the particular category you are interested in.

I really think good things are in store for the SCCA. It's a slow but solid start. I see very positive things among the folks I deal with and I think it will only get better. Things don't change over night in the SCCA however. It's an extremely large organization serving a very large membership dealing with the broadest range of competition, marques, and cars in the country and most likely the world. Change does not come easily, but it is coming. It moves slowly because there are many things the SCCA does right and it doesn't want to screw those things up just for the sake of change.

I will also admit that there are not many Porsches classified in a reasonably favorable fashion. But, things can change.

Chris Prack

But it's an accurate opinion.

Geo

Oh puleez.

What Mazda dominates in SCCA?

James Achard

George, Thanks for the offer to help. Maybe I should move back to Texas( I used to live in Austin, boy do I miss the weather and great music!) All kidding aside, it would be great to run but right now my budget is a bit tight. I'm going to start looking at the SCCA shedule around here and get things sorted for next season. Once I get a bit closer I'll get a handle on where I would fit in and go from there. I don't care so much for being outclassed, I just want more seat time!

Cheers, James

James Achard

whoops..double post

Bryan Watts

The Spec Miata dominates in regional and Pro SM competition.

The Formula Mazda dominates regional and national FM competition.



There you have it...proof that the SCCA favors Mazda!!

Maybe it's just that Mazda supports it's racers in club racing with cheap parts, prize money, and development work better than any marque I know of. The best drivers flock to Mazda's in certain classes because they know Mazda will support them. That's not SCCA's fault.

Show me another marque that has anything close to Mazdaspeed:
-Discounted parts, stock and race
-Development work
-Developed the Spec Miata class
-Support Star Race cars in the building of the Formula Mazda and the new PRO Formula Mazda

Mazda makes it easy to choose their cars for racing!

Chris Prack

To quote you again "Oh puleez". Smoke and mirrors. For the love of God give me one example where Jon has set the world on fire. He has some cams he sells. So what. Anyone can sell cams. It's not rocket science. You really think he sits around dreaming up this stuff in a dark office with incense burning and candles lite?

Anyone with a cam doctor and a flow bench can create cam specs and get anyone of ten or more manufactures to grind them. Most of his cams are just regrinds. I am not saying that they don't work it's just not black magic. He just spent the time to do the (more like the money hiring someone)ground work.

If you are building an ITS motor the rules are VERY clear. Half a point over listed compression and your choice of chips. I know this in understated but you really cannot do anything else to the engine other than run 10.7:1 compression and in doing so cut the head a maximum of .025". So based on that anyone really think that installing pistons and a timing belt creates extra hp?

I am building a 944 cup spec. motor. I have to choose from either PCA (H or I), poc or ITS rules. ITS being the most generous. To SCCA's credit they list the 944 (2.5) as having a 10.2:1 compression ratio and we all know that only the '88 car was that high in the US.

I had an interesting conversation with an older fella at an SCCA race at SP last year. He had been running in SCCA in a Porsche for years. He told me about his battles with SCCA over his car and the rules which it ran under. He fought tooth and nail and sometimes won and sometimes lost. He was adamant that SCCA disapproved of Porsche's in their series. I wish I could recall his name. My buddy will remember for sure.

As far as Porsche's being sucessfull in SCCA, this same friend is running a car that I built for him in ITE. It's a regional class that we call ITEverything. I think that SCCA intended it to mean Improved Touring Experimental but I like the other one better. My friend has won two MAARS championship's in SCCA in the last three years. Last year he got a new job and didn't take the car out much. This year I put together a 500+ hp 2.5 turbo motor to help him with the Vette's.

The car I purchased (84 944) ran in EP two years ago and the guy podiumed several races with the car. It depended who came to the track that weekend. A 914-6 kicks *** in that class or so I have been told.

I truly believe that the 8v 944 is misclassed in ITS. The 16v car is a better fit in that class while the 8v should be bumped to the next class as it is a better fit hp and weight wise.

Thanks for the input Bryan!")

Geo

Show me anybody else getting 183 bhp from a 2.5 liter 944 engine. Anybody. Let alone a ITS engine. I've yet to find anyone. I'm not saying it cannot be done. In fact, I'm saying just the opposite. I think it's outrageous to think/say that Porsche did such a wonderful job on these engines that they just cannot be improved upon.

But the point is, Jon is the only one who is building/developing these engines. I know it's not black magic. It's engineering. It's testing. It's money.

You don't have to tell me that. I'm a member of the Improved Touring Advisory Committee.

Oh, there's much more than that you can do.

That's more than understated. There's more you can do, not the least of which is use a Motec engine management computer.

I see. Now I'm convinced.

As I said, the arrival of the E36 (and later the 944S) changed things in ITS. Prior to that, the 8v 944 was very much a viable ITS car. Some say it still is, including Chris Camadella who has a "to the limit of the rules" 944 with a Milledge engine. And for the record, I don't disagree with reclassing the 944, but it's a tough sell. But I only agree with this because of recent classifications and reclassifications. And one of the reasons it's a tough sell is because 944s still occasionally win in ITS.

Chris Prack

OK so your not going to be convinced by some joker in Va. that met some guy at the track! I don't really think you are that easy. I would bet that you may know of this cat if I can get his name. Other people told me he was famous (or infamous? ) in SCCA circles. anyway.........

I have read the ITS rules many times. I threw in a little sarcasm.

We are a Motec dealer and I have joked about running an M4 and installing it inside the Motronic box. It's legal right! In my experience, for the money, it's not worth the single digit hp that would be gained with it. A custom chip would be very close on the same motor. In ITS.

I have been in the Porsche business for a long time. I have seen and done a lot of things. Right now I am blueprinting my engine to ITS spec. and it will be dyno'd when it's done. FWIW the PO bought a brand new in the box head and sent it to Milledge and had the full ITS job done to it. Maybe it will get me to 183.....

Adam Richman

Personally, I don't think the SCCA by and large hates any marque - do they steer very clear of turbo cars? Yeah but that's a different issue. It's ironic - Honda guys feel that the SCCA hates Hondas (because of the weight the GS-R carries, that the D15A is classed in ITA, that the Accord was taken out of ITB, that the 94+ non-VTEC Integra runs in ITS, the Type R in T2 ...) but on the other hand, the 85-87 Civics in ITC, the 88-91 CRXs in ITA and the 2G Integras all are very competently classed. Ask a Mazda RX-3 guy what he thinks of SCCA classing - he's probably not happy in ITA these days but in reality, the ITA Miata, ITS RX-7 are very apt cars.

As for the P-cars, maybe the 944 8v isn't best of breed for ITS, I won't argue that but I also won't completely count it out. That they classed the 944S in ITS w/ very comparable weights to the E36 sure doesn't seem anti-Porsche. The FP 914 IMO might be the car to have. The T2 Boxster seems to be the car to have (or one of them) as well. I think if you look hard enough from either side, you can make the argument that the SCCA loves or hates a marque - in the end, I don't think its an easy job to class all the cars they do. And if your car isn't listed in the GCR, get it listed - that's how the system works.

At the end of the day, what is and isn't competetive is a function of how much development time and testing you can afford to do. If you build a sub-10k 944 for ITS, by all rights, it better not be the class leader. Now if you put the 25-30k into it, as well as a GS-R or RX-7 or whatever, I am betting they all come out pretty much on par w/ each other. What the SCCA does not reward is trying to make what you have in your garage competetive vs. finding a competetive car and building it - I don't think that's unfair. A few years ago, guys were clamoring that the ITA Miata was simply outclassed in ITA - today, more and more guys are putting these cars in ITA and doing better and better and IIRC, a Miata has won the SARRC Championship for the last 3 years running. Sure becomes hard to say that the Miata is outclassed in ITA when the ITA Miatas can't hang w/ Spec Miatas

JMO

dbanazek

SCCA does seem to get along well with Mazda but the Mazda guys are saying the rules are not fair to them in GT2. There is an SCCA GT car board, GT-Racecars.com where they keep whining about it. I don't know for sure as there are no Mazda GT2 cars in our region.

John Veninger

James,

I might try a race or two with theses guys:

http://www.emraracing.org/

I had very friendly email exchange about classing my car and also accepting my PCA license.

See you at the track soon!