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Old 03-20-2019, 04:34 PM
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rezanourai
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Default Feedback on lap

I swapped out my 991 C2S for a 991 GT3 last October, and this past Monday was the first time I was able to take it out to Thunderhill East (3-mile). Set a new PB, but I know the car has plenty left in it, so hoping to get a few pointers on where I'm leaving time on the table. I know for sure I'm coasting and braking a bit early, and some of that is because the braking distances got longer as the day went on, and the pedal softened up slightly, which didn't inspire confidence to dive in deep on the braking zones. I'll address fluid and probably switch to an AP rotors + DS1.11 setup before next time out.

I know I'm opening the door for all kinds of criticism here, but it's all good I can take it Thanks for any feedback!

Old 03-20-2019, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by rezanourai
I know I'm opening the door for all kinds of criticism here, but it's all good I can take it Thanks for any feedback! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxd2FI5yUqk
I don't know that course, but enjoyed the sights and sounds! One thing I figured out last weekend on the Track Precision App is that you can turn auto-focus off. You phone, like mine, is trying to focus on the windshield from time-to-time. It's not near as bad as mine was, however. You might want to check settings in Harry's and see if they allow auto-focus to be off.
Old 03-20-2019, 05:45 PM
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rezanourai
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I have not been able to get the track precision app to work any of the times I've tried it it either wont record anything, or will fail to record video.

will look for setting to turn off auto focus
Old 03-20-2019, 07:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rezanourai
I have not been able to get the track precision app to work any of the times I've tried it
You’re not alone. Many other options out there.
Old 03-20-2019, 08:05 PM
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T1. Bit late into the corner and a bit tight out for my taste. A good late apex and guaranteeing that you are going to be on track at the exit, but at the cost of a lot of speed pre-apex.
T2. Dont automatically go wide at the start, you're just costing yourself distance. Point the car to clip an apex at the start of the corner and be on the brakes hard to that point, roll it through the middle of the corner.
T3/T4, no major complaints, good line and rolling speed. I'd just say the throttle was a bit too consistent through that section,
T5, Works
T5A, dont exit as wide, give up that .3sec there to guarantee a good positioning for entrance to T6
T6, In earlier and harder. Getting a good exit but that's due to lack of entry speed. I would be 2-4 car lengths later back to gas than you are, but carrying much more speed to the apex.
T8, Just survive it.
T9, Good line, can tell you're at T-Hill regular buy not overtightning the exit (funny because that's been the trend up to this corner)
T10, Focus more on entry speed, who gives a **** about your exit of 10 when 11 is that close. My goal in 10 is to carry the speed as far into the corner as humanly possible, which is well beyond the apex.
T11, Slightly too late apex.
T14, Thought you were pointing a school bus by on entry! I wanna see 2 in the dirt on that apex! :P
T15, not too shabby!
Old 03-21-2019, 02:41 AM
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Originally Posted by SkeerRacing
T1. Bit late into the corner and a bit tight out for my taste. A good late apex and guaranteeing that you are going to be on track at the exit, but at the cost of a lot of speed pre-apex.
T2. Dont automatically go wide at the start, you're just costing yourself distance. Point the car to clip an apex at the start of the corner and be on the brakes hard to that point, roll it through the middle of the corner.
T3/T4, no major complaints, good line and rolling speed. I'd just say the throttle was a bit too consistent through that section,
T5, Works
T5A, dont exit as wide, give up that .3sec there to guarantee a good positioning for entrance to T6
T6, In earlier and harder. Getting a good exit but that's due to lack of entry speed. I would be 2-4 car lengths later back to gas than you are, but carrying much more speed to the apex.
T8, Just survive it.
T9, Good line, can tell you're at T-Hill regular buy not overtightning the exit (funny because that's been the trend up to this corner)
T10, Focus more on entry speed, who gives a **** about your exit of 10 when 11 is that close. My goal in 10 is to carry the speed as far into the corner as humanly possible, which is well beyond the apex.
T11, Slightly too late apex.
T14, Thought you were pointing a school bus by on entry! I wanna see 2 in the dirt on that apex! :P
T15, not too shabby!
Awesome, thanks for the tips! I didn't realize how much space I left on T14 until rewatching the video, haha
Old 03-21-2019, 08:22 AM
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That’s the benefit of a great coach like Elliott...
Old 03-21-2019, 12:54 PM
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OK. I have been driving at Thunderhill since around 1995. My best time in my car in that configuration is about a 1:54. My wife has done 2:00 in that config.

She is my best student ever, achieving a PCA TT top time of day overall at Buttonwillow back in the day. She was driving a 911 for maybe her 4th or 5th time. The same for her experience with slicks. She beat the CDI that day.

I won't give specific advice without knowing:

1. What experience do you have?
2. What are your goals?

Here are some general comments:

1. The best way to learn to go faster at Thunderhill is not getting advice in internet forums.
2. The best way to learn to go faster at Thunderhill may not be to hire a "coach," depending on your experience. There are perhaps better alternatives, depending on your experience.
3. Like many tracks, Thunderhill has many corners (puzzle pieces) where a focus on exit speed can really pay off. This may be a better approach than focusing on, e.g., braking later.
4. I always suggest the following to students: mount your camera in a position where you can see A-pillar to A-pillar and both hands. I also advise students to install a light somewhere in the front of the car (and in the camera's FOV) that is connected to the braking circuit. Even better if you can also install a second light that comes on at WOT. For many folks, this simple "data acq. approach" can pay great dividends. It did for my best student ever. Depending on the car, different levels of effort and maybe expense may be required to achieve this goal. In my experience (about 30 years), folks whom really want to learn to go faster undertake these kinds of efforts. For a newer car, this can be achieved with AIM's SOLO and SmartyCam products, but it can also be achieved with far less expense.
5. APEXES ARE NOT SUGGESTIONS.
6. I rarely ever suggest that any student apex earlier and/or brake later. I think that for many students and at many venues, this approach can create far more problems than it solves.
7. Watch, and then re-watch the Skip Barber video "Going Faster!. Then watch it again. Watch it with friends. Bathe in the theory. Immerse yourself. I watched this in 1987 before my first ever track event-- a PCA DE at Lime Rock. No karting, no AX-- straight to the track after buying my first Porsche. I watch it 2-3 times each off season. Needless to say I find it valuable all of these years later.
8. Read "Secrets of Solo Racing." Written by a PCA member years ago. He was the PCA GGR CDI for many years.
9. Read the excellent PCA GGR Thunderhill track guide. The former GGR CDI and an instructor created this years ago, and a number of us contributed. Still very, very good. I can send you a copy if you send me a PM.
10. These above all: decide on your goal(s), create an action plan, and then execute.
Old 03-21-2019, 01:01 PM
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One other thing:

I have never heard of a modern Porsche having braking issues at Thunderhill. I don't have a lot of experience with GT3s (I have only driven one-- a 997-2 at Thunderhill last year). One lap. Potent car.

If the system is in good shape with adequate fluid, then in my experience, the pedal should never get long.

If I had such a car in the SF Bay Area, and I wanted to ensure it was in tip-top shape for this activity, AND I was willing to use dealer service, then no question my first choice would be PCA Tech Committee member (and former chair) Peter Smith at Rector. He has the experience, expertise and training I would want.

And he is an extremely skilled, talented, experienced and accomplished racing driver as well.
Old 03-21-2019, 02:02 PM
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I don't know about using the inside curb on 15. As you get faster and have a lot more lateral energy built into the car going though there, that bump can create some serious issues. You're better off using the full exit curb and trying to be full throttle. That's a long straight so a fast exit there is very important. If you upset the car and have to do a slight lift, it'll cost you all the way down the straight. If you pick a line that lets you stay flat and carry the speed, I'd opt for that.

I would refer this video as a guide on the lines to take and where to apex:
Not sure if Bill races anymore but I referenced him to get faster by getting tips from him and studying his videos. Even without telemetry you can get a great perspective on the lines, where he picks up the throttle and so forth. Check out his other Thill videos as they're all very helpful. Make sure you have audio you can pick up on throttle inputs and queues.

This biggest advice he gave that refocused me to pay attention to low and medium speed corners as that's where a lot of time is made or lost.
Old 03-21-2019, 02:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mahler9th
7. Watch, and then re-watch the Skip Barber video "Going Faster!. Then watch it again. Watch it with friends. Bathe in the theory. Immerse yourself. I watched this in 1987 before my first ever track event-- a PCA DE at Lime Rock. No karting, no AX-- straight to the track after buying my first Porsche. I watch it 2-3 times each off season. Needless to say I find it valuable all of these years later.
Fantastic suggestion - I'm watching it for the very first time. What a load of great info. Thanks.


Old 03-21-2019, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by RobertR1

This biggest advice he gave that refocused me to pay attention to low and medium speed corners as that's where a lot of time is made or lost.
^^THIS^^
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Old 03-21-2019, 04:50 PM
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Mahler9th
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From Beyond Thunderdome: "We are dealing with subtleties here."

The goal is, of course the cover the lap using 100% of the car's capabilities. The fastest we can go, at any given time, is with the throttle at WOT.

One thing I like about the Skip Barber video is that it starts with the line, and the concept of WOT as soon as you can get it. It also starts with the concept of widest arc.

We used this concept effectively during PCA AX training exercises at the excellent two-day AX school we used to conduct at the 'stick back in the day. The first exercise was always a skid pad, trying for the concepts of bigger radius enabling higher speed, weight transfer, recover and correction. The Secrets of Solo Racing book was part of the entry fee.

Another concept from that video, the basic idea of the most important corner being the one before the longest straight, and so on.

Another concept mentioned by Skip: "You can get hundredths from braking later, you can get tenths from getting to WOT sooner." Of course this is not an absolute. But for some corners (many of those at Thunderhill) it can be a good philosophy.

One of the challenges with just using random videos is that there are subtleties. Lots of little details, and some of these can affect the line. And there is no interaction. So no discussion of the "why's." Like did the guy in that video double apex turn 2? Why did Hurley Haywood say that there is no natural apex in 2? Yes I was there when he said it. After driving several 914s at a PCA GGR event. Interaction. Engagement. Discussion. Subtleties.

Porsche 911 cars are different animals than Miatas and so on.

One of the things I have noticed in the past decade or so with all of this DE focus is that it seems much harder for folks to find the "signal" and avoid the noise.

Back when the PCA GGR had a very active and evolved time trial culture, a large number of folks participated in solo laps on Sunday afternoons. Perhaps as many as 75% or more of event attendees. No traffic, put up or shut up. Event trophies and season championships. This seemed to result in about that same percentage of people focusing on the craft throughout the weekend. Really focused on getting faster at each session and at each event.

One of the cool things that was part of the culture was the formation of the grids. Everyone seemed to know where to line up, and had no problems with the pecking order. Paying attention to this got us cleaner laps. It did not have to be enforced or even really discussed... folks just did this. Mutual benefit.

As far as I know, the type of culture we had no longer exists anywhere. Too bad.

But that does not mean one cannot immerse oneself and and fully engage in getting faster.
Old 03-21-2019, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mahler9th
OK. I have been driving at Thunderhill since around 1995. My best time in my car in that configuration is about a 1:54. My wife has done 2:00 in that config.

She is my best student ever, achieving a PCA TT top time of day overall at Buttonwillow back in the day. She was driving a 911 for maybe her 4th or 5th time. The same for her experience with slicks. She beat the CDI that day.

I won't give specific advice without knowing:

1. What experience do you have?
2. What are your goals?

Here are some general comments:

1. The best way to learn to go faster at Thunderhill is not getting advice in internet forums.
2. The best way to learn to go faster at Thunderhill may not be to hire a "coach," depending on your experience. There are perhaps better alternatives, depending on your experience.
3. Like many tracks, Thunderhill has many corners (puzzle pieces) where a focus on exit speed can really pay off. This may be a better approach than focusing on, e.g., braking later.
4. I always suggest the following to students: mount your camera in a position where you can see A-pillar to A-pillar and both hands. I also advise students to install a light somewhere in the front of the car (and in the camera's FOV) that is connected to the braking circuit. Even better if you can also install a second light that comes on at WOT. For many folks, this simple "data acq. approach" can pay great dividends. It did for my best student ever. Depending on the car, different levels of effort and maybe expense may be required to achieve this goal. In my experience (about 30 years), folks whom really want to learn to go faster undertake these kinds of efforts. For a newer car, this can be achieved with AIM's SOLO and SmartyCam products, but it can also be achieved with far less expense.
5. APEXES ARE NOT SUGGESTIONS.
6. I rarely ever suggest that any student apex earlier and/or brake later. I think that for many students and at many venues, this approach can create far more problems than it solves.
7. Watch, and then re-watch the Skip Barber video "Going Faster!. Then watch it again. Watch it with friends. Bathe in the theory. Immerse yourself. I watched this in 1987 before my first ever track event-- a PCA DE at Lime Rock. No karting, no AX-- straight to the track after buying my first Porsche. I watch it 2-3 times each off season. Needless to say I find it valuable all of these years later.
8. Read "Secrets of Solo Racing." Written by a PCA member years ago. He was the PCA GGR CDI for many years.
9. Read the excellent PCA GGR Thunderhill track guide. The former GGR CDI and an instructor created this years ago, and a number of us contributed. Still very, very good. I can send you a copy if you send me a PM.
10. These above all: decide on your goal(s), create an action plan, and then execute.
Great info, thanks! To answer your first 2 questions:
1. experience - I've been doing HPDE events for about 4 years now, doing roughly 8-12 days a year. It's always been in a 911 (First a 991 C2S, then now in the 991 GT3).
2. goals - I'm not trying to become a professional race car driver, but I do want to learn to drive better, and learn to extract the most from the car that I can. I'm happy staying in a non-competitive (no wheel to wheel racing) environment, but want to constantly improve myself.

I'll watch the Skip Barber video. I believe I had watched that a couple years ago, but will watch again
Old 03-21-2019, 06:06 PM
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Mahler9th
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Great.

Here are some further comments and recommendations:

1. The local PCA regions have a rich history in this sport. The Golden Gate is the region to which I belong. Take advantage of that history and culture. Many professional drivers and techs/engineers have been and/or are still part of that. If you want suggestions, please send me a PM.
2. The car in post #10 is likely being driven by someone in my network. It is a different car from yours. That is where some of the subtleties may be important. I see TC Design stickers on it. I know them very well, and they are at the sharp end of the spear. They are great friends and know their stuff. If you want a half cage in a water-cooled, that is the place to go.
3. I again encourage you to read/review the GGR Thunderhill track guide. I can send you one as a PDF if you want.
4. I'd strongly suggest addressing the video items I mentioned above. Folks like Jerry Austin, Peter Krause and Matt Romanowski can get you set up with AIM. So can former PCA GGR members David and Ellen Ferguson at Veracity Racing Data. They ran a potent Porsche 914 back in the day. Mark Francis at OG Racing and Tony and Joe at TC Design can also get you set up with AIM. If you decide on starting off at a lesser expense, I think you should still strive for the a-pilar to a-pilar FOV.
5. I have a coach I can recommend, but I'd first invest in some really focused events this Spring. That way when/if you engage him, you would be already "bathing in the craft." His name is Thomas Merrill. He is fully familiar with AIM, Porsches and Thunderhill. His parents were very active with PCA back in the day as drivers and instructors. His dad still races with PCA and sometimes the Porsche Racing Club. Thomas was Chief Instructor for Barber at Laguna for a while. I first met him when he was a schoolboy at the Merrill Family spread just outside of turn 6 at Laguna. They hosted a PCA GGR Saturday BBQ when we were at Laguna for a TT back in 1995. Again, I'd start first by doing a few Spring events working on some specifics. Then maybe look for engagement mid-year.
6. I don't think it is possible to get much use from some other car's/driver's braking and WOT points from some random video. I think it actually may be counterproductive.

Happy to give further suggestions if you'd like.



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