PDK reliability on the track
10-05-2018, 12:24 PM
#61
Wow! What a pita or maybe its easy with coaching from guys like you on RL and a PIWIS which I assume anyone can buy. Changing fluids is so basic I'm amazed at how complicated this simple and necessary action has become. I really want to race a PDK car hence my interest. Every time I read about needed operations like this and failures all I can say is "long live the manual gearbox!"
10-05-2018, 01:00 PM
#62
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Wow! What a pita or maybe its easy with coaching from guys like you on RL and a PIWIS which I assume anyone can buy. Changing fluids is so basic I'm amazed at how complicated this simple and necessary action has become. I really want to race a PDK car hence my interest. Every time I read about needed operations like this and failures all I can say is "long live the manual gearbox!"
10-05-2018, 04:26 PM
#63
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Any additional clarification is welcome. I forwarded the response to Wray that came back from Cobb tech support where they went to their Porsche engineering team (as they called it) to get a response to my question on which trans oil temp is being logged by the Cobb AP. Their first response wasn't very convincing so I asked them to dig deeper and that's when they sent the question to their Porsche tech specialists. Anyway, the answer came back that the trans oil temp in the Cobb AP logs is the gear-side oil not the clutch-side fluid. I want to be able to log clutch-side fluid temp, but don't think there is an OEM sensor available. I think the temp sensor for the gear-side oil is on the passenger side of the gear box, below the oil cooler and below the plug for checking/adding gear oil. I was planning on disconnecting it and logging some data with the ignition switch on and car in park to confirm it is the gear oil temp sensor, but haven't been back under the car yet.
10-18-2018, 09:36 PM
#64
PDK failure
For the sake of documentation and helping others, the PDK in my 2009 Carrera S (55k miles) failed 2 weeks ago at Sebring. Cost to repair is $12,500. I’m a little embarrassed by the situation because I’ve only had the car 4 months and I felt comfortable self insuring w such a reliable track car. I’m fortunate that I can afford the repair and I understood the risks but it still stings. I wouldn’t suggest owning a PDK car out of warranty.
10-18-2018, 11:31 PM
#65
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Another 2 data points:
1. Friend with street driven 2012 Cayman R with PDK. Just over 60k kilometers so just out of warranty. Unexplained leaks. One seal replaced by good independent wrench and catch can installed. Porsche not interested in either diagnosis or assistance.
2. Friend with exclusively track driven 2014 Cayman S with PDK. Has aftermarket cooler, running on DOT-R tires, no LSD. Trans tanked 2 weeks ago. Porsche not interested. Estimate to replace with uncertain core exchange value is > $15k Canadian.
As discussed with several industry insiders at independent Porsche specialty trans rebuilders... the factory has no apparent interest in servicing these, parts aren't available, schematics aren't available, and tech guides aren't available. I guess the message is if you break it you throw it away and buy another.
1. Friend with street driven 2012 Cayman R with PDK. Just over 60k kilometers so just out of warranty. Unexplained leaks. One seal replaced by good independent wrench and catch can installed. Porsche not interested in either diagnosis or assistance.
2. Friend with exclusively track driven 2014 Cayman S with PDK. Has aftermarket cooler, running on DOT-R tires, no LSD. Trans tanked 2 weeks ago. Porsche not interested. Estimate to replace with uncertain core exchange value is > $15k Canadian.
As discussed with several industry insiders at independent Porsche specialty trans rebuilders... the factory has no apparent interest in servicing these, parts aren't available, schematics aren't available, and tech guides aren't available. I guess the message is if you break it you throw it away and buy another.
10-19-2018, 08:37 AM
#66
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^ Even under warranty, I hear that PDKs are generally replaced rather than repaired.
10-19-2018, 09:19 AM
#67
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In a thread full of bad PDK stories, I'll lighten up the mood a bit for you track PDK guys.
My 2014 981S has 22,000 track miles on it and nothing has gone wrong with the car that wasn't my fault/doing (consumables, oil changes, rotors, etc.).
I did need to replace one ignition coil, but that was a $69 cost, so I don't put it into the same category of transmission replacement.
Love my PDK track car. No issues here (knockin' on wood right now.....)
My 2014 981S has 22,000 track miles on it and nothing has gone wrong with the car that wasn't my fault/doing (consumables, oil changes, rotors, etc.).
I did need to replace one ignition coil, but that was a $69 cost, so I don't put it into the same category of transmission replacement.
Love my PDK track car. No issues here (knockin' on wood right now.....)
10-19-2018, 10:04 AM
#68
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Here's my sob story. The PDK transmission in my 2011 Cayman S went early this year. I had a Porsche rebuilt transmission installed which very quickly started missing reverse. Had it checked out by 2 different dealers and 1 independent who couldn't find the issue so I requested a dealer pursue a warranty claim. Porsche denied the claim due to aftermarket parts although they can't specify which parts or how the transmission was damaged which I believe is in violation of the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. The decision was based on photographs of underneath the car that were sent to Porsche N.A. The car has suspension, brake and exhaust mods. So far, Porsche has never been inside the transmission to see what is wrong with it.
I called Porsche Customer Service and wanted to talk with someone in either the Technical or Warranty Department and they refused to let me do so. They made it clear that the subject was closed and there was no way for me to appeal it or obtain additional justification within Porsche N.A. I then requested arbitration via the CAP Motors program that Porsche offers. This program is administered by DeMars & Associates. They've declined to be involved because according to them the program only applies to the vehicle as a whole and not to individual parts. That seems to conflict with the information Porsche provides which states "CAP-Motors arbitrates disputes involving Porsche's product reliability or warranty performance concerning your Porsche automobile."
So as of right now I've been completely blocked from being able to appeal the decision or have a meaningful discussion of why Porsche's action aren't in violation of the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. My next step is to write a letter to Porsche's General Counsel with a copy to my State Attorney General. Wish me luck.
I called Porsche Customer Service and wanted to talk with someone in either the Technical or Warranty Department and they refused to let me do so. They made it clear that the subject was closed and there was no way for me to appeal it or obtain additional justification within Porsche N.A. I then requested arbitration via the CAP Motors program that Porsche offers. This program is administered by DeMars & Associates. They've declined to be involved because according to them the program only applies to the vehicle as a whole and not to individual parts. That seems to conflict with the information Porsche provides which states "CAP-Motors arbitrates disputes involving Porsche's product reliability or warranty performance concerning your Porsche automobile."
So as of right now I've been completely blocked from being able to appeal the decision or have a meaningful discussion of why Porsche's action aren't in violation of the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. My next step is to write a letter to Porsche's General Counsel with a copy to my State Attorney General. Wish me luck.
10-19-2018, 10:56 AM
#69
Here's my sob story. The PDK transmission in my 2011 Cayman S went early this year. I had a Porsche rebuilt transmission installed which very quickly started missing reverse. Had it checked out by 2 different dealers and 1 independent who couldn't find the issue so I requested a dealer pursue a warranty claim. Porsche denied the claim due to aftermarket parts although they can't specify which parts or how the transmission was damaged which I believe is in violation of the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. The decision was based on photographs of underneath the car that were sent to Porsche N.A. The car has suspension, brake and exhaust mods. So far, Porsche has never been inside the transmission to see what is wrong with it.
I called Porsche Customer Service and wanted to talk with someone in either the Technical or Warranty Department and they refused to let me do so. They made it clear that the subject was closed and there was no way for me to appeal it or obtain additional justification within Porsche N.A. I then requested arbitration via the CAP Motors program that Porsche offers. This program is administered by DeMars & Associates. They've declined to be involved because according to them the program only applies to the vehicle as a whole and not to individual parts. That seems to conflict with the information Porsche provides which states "CAP-Motors arbitrates disputes involving Porsche's product reliability or warranty performance concerning your Porsche automobile."
So as of right now I've been completely blocked from being able to appeal the decision or have a meaningful discussion of why Porsche's action aren't in violation of the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. My next step is to write a letter to Porsche's General Counsel with a copy to my State Attorney General. Wish me luck.
I called Porsche Customer Service and wanted to talk with someone in either the Technical or Warranty Department and they refused to let me do so. They made it clear that the subject was closed and there was no way for me to appeal it or obtain additional justification within Porsche N.A. I then requested arbitration via the CAP Motors program that Porsche offers. This program is administered by DeMars & Associates. They've declined to be involved because according to them the program only applies to the vehicle as a whole and not to individual parts. That seems to conflict with the information Porsche provides which states "CAP-Motors arbitrates disputes involving Porsche's product reliability or warranty performance concerning your Porsche automobile."
So as of right now I've been completely blocked from being able to appeal the decision or have a meaningful discussion of why Porsche's action aren't in violation of the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. My next step is to write a letter to Porsche's General Counsel with a copy to my State Attorney General. Wish me luck.
10-19-2018, 04:13 PM
#70
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It's not for performance as far as lap times, etc.; it's more for smoothness of operation. The factory is very specific about the order of operations for this because the fluid has to be at a certain temp so that the computer has a known viscosity. You're basically calibrating the shift rod distances, the clutches and the solenoids are confirming the time it takes things to move back and forth when they're fired. I have seen the system act up when you so much as remove 2 ounces of PDK fluid from it. I had a car get stuck in neutral here at the shop when some burped out when we checked the level. The filling procedure operates in a similar fashion; again the fluid must be between 30C - 50C, it purges all solenoids and then allows you to keep filling. I have seen gearboxes misbehave because they're the tiniest bit low on fluid. Since i'm not a factory tech, i follow the dealership protocol to the T when i can find the documentation to tell us what to do.
And in the time honored tradition of no good deed goes unpunished, are you able to share any additional details?
For example, how's the fluid heated to 30-50C ?
Thanks.
Karl.
10-20-2018, 10:22 AM
#71
Race Director
Here's my sob story. The PDK transmission in my 2011 Cayman S went early this year. I had a Porsche rebuilt transmission installed which very quickly started missing reverse. Had it checked out by 2 different dealers and 1 independent who couldn't find the issue so I requested a dealer pursue a warranty claim. Porsche denied the claim due to aftermarket parts although they can't specify which parts or how the transmission was damaged which I believe is in violation of the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. The decision was based on photographs of underneath the car that were sent to Porsche N.A. The car has suspension, brake and exhaust mods. So far, Porsche has never been inside the transmission to see what is wrong with it.
I called Porsche Customer Service and wanted to talk with someone in either the Technical or Warranty Department and they refused to let me do so. They made it clear that the subject was closed and there was no way for me to appeal it or obtain additional justification within Porsche N.A. I then requested arbitration via the CAP Motors program that Porsche offers. This program is administered by DeMars & Associates. They've declined to be involved because according to them the program only applies to the vehicle as a whole and not to individual parts. That seems to conflict with the information Porsche provides which states "CAP-Motors arbitrates disputes involving Porsche's product reliability or warranty performance concerning your Porsche automobile."
So as of right now I've been completely blocked from being able to appeal the decision or have a meaningful discussion of why Porsche's action aren't in violation of the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. My next step is to write a letter to Porsche's General Counsel with a copy to my State Attorney General. Wish me luck.
I called Porsche Customer Service and wanted to talk with someone in either the Technical or Warranty Department and they refused to let me do so. They made it clear that the subject was closed and there was no way for me to appeal it or obtain additional justification within Porsche N.A. I then requested arbitration via the CAP Motors program that Porsche offers. This program is administered by DeMars & Associates. They've declined to be involved because according to them the program only applies to the vehicle as a whole and not to individual parts. That seems to conflict with the information Porsche provides which states "CAP-Motors arbitrates disputes involving Porsche's product reliability or warranty performance concerning your Porsche automobile."
So as of right now I've been completely blocked from being able to appeal the decision or have a meaningful discussion of why Porsche's action aren't in violation of the Magnuson Moss Warranty Act. My next step is to write a letter to Porsche's General Counsel with a copy to my State Attorney General. Wish me luck.
10-20-2018, 10:43 AM
#72
Rennlist Member
Hi Mike. It's very disappointing and I can't say that I'm a fan of Porsche's customer service given how they've tried to block me from getting a detailed explanation or how I violated their warranty. I haven't given up yet!
Last edited by RichFL; 10-21-2018 at 10:56 AM.
10-20-2018, 12:09 PM
#73
Rennlist Member
Gotta say I'm pretty shocked to hear of all these failures, especially since Porsche put these in their track oriented cars. Rich, even more disappointed that Porsche isn't covering it, that's the kinda crap I expect to see from a VW or Subaru dealer when someone comes in with a blown motor and has a huge aftermarket turbo on it...
10-20-2018, 10:42 PM
#74
Race Director
yeah that’s very disappointing...there actions towards you even affects the way I think about the company. Be headstrong and keep after them!
10-21-2018, 12:09 AM
#75
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Gotta say I'm pretty shocked to hear of all these failures, especially since Porsche put these in their track oriented cars. Rich, even more disappointed that Porsche isn't covering it, that's the kinda crap I expect to see from a VW or Subaru dealer when someone comes in with a blown motor and has a huge aftermarket turbo on it...
Porsche is a VW dealer now.