jsabatini

Last Saturday at Suncoast/Citrus Sebring HPDE in the first session of the day a BMW oiled down the track at Turn 6 and 2 laps later an new 997.2 Cup Car spun and hit the wall inside wall with both sides of the car. Luckily the driver was OK, not so much for the cup car.

Coming through carousal on 2nd hot lap they had the surface flag out at the 2 stations before T6 so I slowed down to see if I could see anything. Having never seen oil on track I had no idea what to look for and did not see anything. Coming down the back straight the cup car blew by. Next time through the carousal no surface flag just the white flag only? I realize the cup car had just crashed, but I thought they would have had the yellow out before I got there. Would have been good to have yellow out because 2 faster cars passed me under the white flag, putting them on the oiled line before the crashed cup car. Coming out of 6 saw the poor cup car. Red flag at Turn 10 and then Black flag to the pits while they cleaned up the mess.

After watching my video and knowing where to look you could see the Exxon Valdez Bimmer’s oil slick plain as day.

Here are my questions:

Coming through the carousal on that 3rd lap when there was only a white flag before Turn 6 why was the surface flag still not showing?

The white flag was out for the safety vehicle tending to the BMW, but they were way past the old hairpin and hard to see, not that the drive over bridge flagger could see that.

Surface flag should have still been out?

And the yellow flag should have been waving, but guess the accident just happened and they had not got it out yet? And there was only one corner worker with only 2 arms.

Is passing allowed under a white flag?

Knowing that the surface flag was out lap before and not seeing any cones, dirt, etc, I assumed there was oil down so I had slowed up and seeing the white flag out was still off pace but the 2 cars behind were faster so I gave them the pass signs right onto the oil that I had not yet seen. Good thing they did not spin into the wrecked cup car.

Have been doing this for 20+ years and never saw an oil slick like this or had a session stopped by red flag. The learning never stops.

38D

Yes you can pass under a white flag. Rest of your questions are hard to know without seeing the video.

jsabatini

Thanks, here you go

needmoregarage

Debris flags may be pulled back after two laps and are often not kept out the entire session. I assume the idea is to warn everyone of the grip hazard and then once you know - it's up to you to remember it's there if it hasn't been cleared.

To reiterate 38D's point - yes passing under white is permitted. White would typically mean slower vehicle on track, and passing should be done with care. Usually it's in reference to an emergency vehicle like tow or ambulance but could also mean a race/DE car. But "blowing by" someone under white probably shouldn't happen.

As for waving yellow - I've seen corner works completely miss an incident on track (they had their back to it) where coolant had been dropped all over the track just past a blind turn (entering Thunder Valley at Mid-OH). A Ferrari Challenge (DE participant) blew a coolant line. Cars came over that blind turn and it was like a skating rink. Once the CW saw the incident the yellow was franticly waving, but there was almost a minute of no flag whatsoever and cars coming around that corner and sliding. Everyone "threaded-the-needle" and it was a miracle that there was no contact (pretty sure the Ferrari went into the wall but damage was minimal although he was done for the weekend).

My point is: Corner workers are not infallible and some are better than others. Even if they are great they can only look in one direction at a time and turning their heads for even a moment can mean they miss something and have a delayed reaction - which can be quite significant to those oncoming cars that have no warning.

I've only been driving on track for 8 years (instructing for 7) and I agree one never stops learning.

jsabatini

Exactly, they always say Debris Flag will be out for 2 laps, after that the debris is now part of the track so they pull in the flag. In this case it was only out for 1 lap. And you can barely see the tow vehicle way past the old hairpin to the left of the track.

I know corner workers are not perfect, but how did they not hear the squealing tires and 2 impacts into the wall? Assume the yellow came out not long after I passed.

needmoregarage

In the case of the flag being out only one lap - maybe they don't know the rules or maybe there is another explanation. You could probably take it up with grid control or track management. Maybe this is a training opportunity for that particular corner worker (if there isn't another valid explanation).

As for not hearing the squealing tires - maybe with the headphones on, and listening to radio chatter it was the "perfect storm" of a distraction and not hearing the incident. I don't know the answer - but again, taking this up with the appropriate channels might help to understand exactly what happened, and if a mistake was made by the track staff - it's an opportunity for them to do some training (or take other corrective action).

When we had the situation at Mid-OH - you can bet that our club CI spoke to the person in charge and the behavior of the corner worker in that station changed. That person was facing the wrong direction most of that day, and had they been facing the "correct" direction they would have seen the problem. That person was also quite late with a lot of flags (several of us complained) and we saw improvement after the discussions took place.

If the discussion is approached from a constructive perspective and with an attempt to learn, and possibly "re-train" - it benefits everyone. Great that you are bringing this up as it raises awareness.

LuigiVampa

I think the problem is normally you get a white and yellow flag together because that is prudent. I believe the only no passing flags are yellow, black and red.

STLPCA

Having worked corners for 15 years in my youth with SCCA and IMSA (and even one F1 race at WGI) at a number of tracks, here's my opinion FWIW.
First, flag use is (or should be) much more liberal at a DE than a race.
Second, as said passing is permitted under a white so nothing wrong there.
Third, how long to hang a debris flag for a frequently hard to see danger like coolant or oil in a DE may vary since e.g., at DEs especially early in a session there may be late entering cars who missed the last few laps so again, may opt for liberal use. The danger of leaving it out too long is you then can't as effectively warn of a new danger like a dropped muffler in the same area as oil from a few laps before.
Fourth, throwing a yellow, or even a waving yellow, in a DE won't ruin anyone's "race" and it's in an environment of generally significant differences in driver talent and car ability so, again, opt for liberal. I'd have covered the just off track workers with at least a yellow, if not a waving yellow (if waving, backed by a standing yellow at the prior station) even in the absence of oil, but certainly given the increased danger of another out of control car at speed. But then, I don't want to see a worker hit, the adage that "if one car got there another may follow" is valid, and again, it ain't a race.
Fifth, best practice is to have 2 corner workers on flags, one with the yellow in hand looking down the track and the other offset in front to watch the yellow flagger's back and use the other flags as warranted. The yellow flagger NEVER looks up track while cars are in the station's area of responsibility. At DEs stations are frequently not fully manned, so mistakes by flaggers will happen. From the video, this was one. Fortunately, no harm.
Last, red flag protocol at our DEs is controlled stop, OFF the line, but on the pavement, within sight of the next corner station, off the brakes, stay in your car and wait for directions from the corner workers. The most important part is well off the line so if a car behind blows the red, which happens far too often, you're not rear ended.

Oh, and please, wave or flash your lights as thanks to the corner workers at the end of a session. Standing all day in the heat, wind, rain, or sometimes snow so we can have safer fun can be hard work. I know I couldn't do it anymore.

mrbill_fl

I'm not sure everyone understands, that anything happening before the turn station, is the previous stations responsibility to cover with flags. Turn stations should only cover what happens down track from that point. Doesn't matter what's going on before the station, the station flags for stuff after them to the next station.

With only 1 worker, they should be looking down track, but the flagger under the bridge is facing towards the carousel so they have to rely on the radio.

At sebring, I'm pretty sure race control could see that section of track.


I wish more cars would put "Thanks workers! " on the rear of their cars... Those folks put in a very long hard day, and appreciate the recognition. I still remember the racers that brought ice creams out at lunch break.

uscarrera

I was at event also but not in that run group 991 Cup Car hit hard but driver was OK and to his "credit" he had track insurance for event car was bad not sure if totalled but close.
Rich

Wild Weasel

Wait... they just let you drive around in a HPDE with an oil slick on the track???

I don't think my region would do that but I guess I've never seen it happen. I was at WGI when a Mezger drained it's coolant half way around the track and the session was red flagged for the clean up. I'd expect the same for any oil slick.

Some groups seriously just leave it out there and go on with their day??

Jabs1542

needmoregarage

jsabatini

So any time a car drops some fluid they immediately red flag the session? Bimmer dropped oil on track so they showed the surface flag. Where the oil was dropped was not in an area that a corner worker could see it. Less than 2 laps later the cup car spun and hit the wall. Session red flagged, then black flagged and track was closed while they cleaned up the mess.

Like I said, I did not know what to look for so I drove right over it not knowing it, I was off pace. After seeing the video and seeing what it looked like, if it ever happens again and I see something similar, I sure as hell would go to the pits and let them know how bad it appeared.

jsabatini

+987.1

I always wave to the corner workers on the cool down lap and instruct my students to do the same!