Close Call
04-09-2018 | 12:46 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 2,872
Likes: 222
From: Schattenbaum/MNY Regions
Looks to me like a hooked wheel and the usual ensuing foolishness. Luckily the runoff at lightning is halfway to Philadelphia.
Of course, Bill has decades' experience racing and instructing, and he made it look easy.
Of course, Bill has decades' experience racing and instructing, and he made it look easy.
04-09-2018 | 09:24 PM
#36
Drifting
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 3,106
Likes: 383
From: Charlotte, NC
This video is exactly one of the questions I was going to post on here.
The point by, but the driving line changes sides, left to right or right to left.
A couple years ago I was at NJMP Lightning, and my instructor was critical (AND RIGHTLY SO), about a point by I did.
It was between turns 5 and 7. I gave the (left) point by when I was on right side of track out of 5, before 6.
The following car did NOT wave off pass, but did not start a pass after my lift, I continued to follow the line, which then moves to the left through 6 and back to right to set up for 7.
My point was to the left, but he did not pass until I was on the left, and he passed on the right, late, which caused me to be off line in setting up for 7. My instructor was not happy with me.
The video shown here is between 7 and 8, again a situation where the line changes.
I will be doing a DE in a few weeks, and I will be asking my instructor for the correct resolve to this scenario.
Please chime in on this, as I don't think I can be the only student that has this question.
I believe the DE point by, as explained to me is:
Initiate the point by in a place, deemed a PASSING ZONE
1 point by for each car passing
Stay in the predetermined driving line
Moderately lift to allow safe pass
Thanks
David
The point by, but the driving line changes sides, left to right or right to left.
A couple years ago I was at NJMP Lightning, and my instructor was critical (AND RIGHTLY SO), about a point by I did.
It was between turns 5 and 7. I gave the (left) point by when I was on right side of track out of 5, before 6.
The following car did NOT wave off pass, but did not start a pass after my lift, I continued to follow the line, which then moves to the left through 6 and back to right to set up for 7.
My point was to the left, but he did not pass until I was on the left, and he passed on the right, late, which caused me to be off line in setting up for 7. My instructor was not happy with me.
The video shown here is between 7 and 8, again a situation where the line changes.
I will be doing a DE in a few weeks, and I will be asking my instructor for the correct resolve to this scenario.
Please chime in on this, as I don't think I can be the only student that has this question.
I believe the DE point by, as explained to me is:
Initiate the point by in a place, deemed a PASSING ZONE
1 point by for each car passing
Stay in the predetermined driving line
Moderately lift to allow safe pass
Thanks
David
But the real lesson is cooperation and communication. If you give a pass, make it well known and easy for your colleague to get by, if they need help, do what it takes to make it clean.. IE: If they take it late, then yes stay put and let them go. If you need a big lift or even brake to make it clean, then do so... Make it clean, even if you have to cover for their mistake.
Now if they are waving it off (especially if their wave-off is not clear), you need to make your intentions sharp and crystal clear. If you are going to cross back in front of them you need to do it briskly. Not so fast that they don't have time to react, but not so slow that you fool them into a slow drift across the track either... Use your head and default to being predictable.
04-09-2018 | 09:42 PM
#38
Rennlist Member
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,822
Likes: 171
From: Poconos PA
Wow I never seen anybody lose it that far past turn 7. Nice avoidance there Bill. But you should thank him for making the the proper correction also (after calling him a dumbass for starting the situation to begin with). If not, he would have taken both of you into the barrier.
04-10-2018 | 09:41 AM
#39
Rennlist Member
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 156
Likes: 2
From: SE Pa
Nice work William........although I was down there I didn't realize you were having so much fun.
Looks to me like he just brain farted and forgot the track bends there, hooked a wheel and goes downhill from there.
Again nice work. See you at Summit.
Looks to me like he just brain farted and forgot the track bends there, hooked a wheel and goes downhill from there.
Again nice work. See you at Summit.
04-10-2018 | 12:40 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,336
Likes: 430
From: Apalachin, New York
As others have said, yes, once you give a point, stick to it.
But the real lesson is cooperation and communication. If you give a pass, make it well known and easy for your colleague to get by, if they need help, do what it takes to make it clean.. IE: If they take it late, then yes stay put and let them go. If you need a big lift or even brake to make it clean, then do so... Make it clean, even if you have to cover for their mistake.
Now if they are waving it off (especially if their wave-off is not clear), you need to make your intentions sharp and crystal clear. If you are going to cross back in front of them you need to do it briskly. Not so fast that they don't have time to react, but not so slow that you fool them into a slow drift across the track either... Use your head and default to being predictable.
But the real lesson is cooperation and communication. If you give a pass, make it well known and easy for your colleague to get by, if they need help, do what it takes to make it clean.. IE: If they take it late, then yes stay put and let them go. If you need a big lift or even brake to make it clean, then do so... Make it clean, even if you have to cover for their mistake.
Now if they are waving it off (especially if their wave-off is not clear), you need to make your intentions sharp and crystal clear. If you are going to cross back in front of them you need to do it briskly. Not so fast that they don't have time to react, but not so slow that you fool them into a slow drift across the track either... Use your head and default to being predictable.
This is exactly what I did, and my instructor, let's say, was not happy, because I left the proper driving line to allow a pass. He made it clear, never, never leave the line.
He claimed, it is expectation that all drivers maintain the safe DE line, except for their own passing of another car or to avoid an obsictical. He also stated I would have been at fault if an incident occurred for leaving the DE line.
For any future situations, I want to understand on which is correct, do what the situation calls for to avoid an incident or no matter what stay in the DE line.
I think for all the possible scenarios, anybody and everybody has got to be flexible, BUT, for students of DEs, We have to listen to the instructor, we base our safety and all other's safety on the instructors guidance.
04-10-2018 | 12:49 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 3,599
Likes: 337
From: Summit Point, probably
In run groups with defined passing zones staying on line should be pretty straightforward. If there is a need to cross the track to stay on line, do that then point the passing car by.
As you move into groups with passing anywhere on track with a point by sometimes it gets blurry and it becomes more about the specific cars and speed deltas and specific track geometry and how much you trust each other to understand each other. But it always defaults back to being predictable and once you've communicated a specific intent to stick with it so you don't cross up the other driver .
As you move into groups with passing anywhere on track with a point by sometimes it gets blurry and it becomes more about the specific cars and speed deltas and specific track geometry and how much you trust each other to understand each other. But it always defaults back to being predictable and once you've communicated a specific intent to stick with it so you don't cross up the other driver .
04-10-2018 | 02:26 PM
#42
Track Day
Joined: Feb 2016
Posts: 21
Likes: 0
Thank you for posting the video. I find these very educational and make me think critically about my own experiences. In my view, the driver giving the point seems to have failed to adjust speed for an off-line approach to the soft left turn. And combined with eyes in the mirror and only one hand the wheel, we get what we see here. Excellent reflexes and control by the OP! Glad nothing was bent.
04-10-2018 | 05:30 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 8,550
Likes: 1,386
if they need help, do what it takes to make it clean.. IE: If they take it late, then yes stay put and let them go. If you need a big lift or even brake to make it clean, then do so... Make it clean, even if you have to cover for their mistake.
This is exactly what I did, and my instructor, let's say, was not happy, because I left the proper driving line to allow a pass. He made it clear, never, never leave the line.
He claimed, it is expectation that all drivers maintain the safe DE line, except for their own passing of another car or to avoid an obsictical. He also stated I would have been at fault if an incident occurred for leaving the DE line.
For any future situations, I want to understand on which is correct, do what the situation calls for to avoid an incident or no matter what stay in the DE line.
I think for all the possible scenarios, anybody and everybody has got to be flexible, BUT, for students of DEs, We have to listen to the instructor, we base our safety and all other's safety on the instructors guidance.
This is exactly what I did, and my instructor, let's say, was not happy, because I left the proper driving line to allow a pass. He made it clear, never, never leave the line.
He claimed, it is expectation that all drivers maintain the safe DE line, except for their own passing of another car or to avoid an obsictical. He also stated I would have been at fault if an incident occurred for leaving the DE line.
For any future situations, I want to understand on which is correct, do what the situation calls for to avoid an incident or no matter what stay in the DE line.
I think for all the possible scenarios, anybody and everybody has got to be flexible, BUT, for students of DEs, We have to listen to the instructor, we base our safety and all other's safety on the instructors guidance.
In run groups with defined passing zones staying on line should be pretty straightforward. If there is a need to cross the track to stay on line, do that then point the passing car by.
As you move into groups with passing anywhere on track with a point by sometimes it gets blurry and it becomes more about the specific cars and speed deltas and specific track geometry and how much you trust each other to understand each other. But it always defaults back to being predictable and once you've communicated a specific intent to stick with it so you don't cross up the other driver .
As you move into groups with passing anywhere on track with a point by sometimes it gets blurry and it becomes more about the specific cars and speed deltas and specific track geometry and how much you trust each other to understand each other. But it always defaults back to being predictable and once you've communicated a specific intent to stick with it so you don't cross up the other driver .
04-10-2018 | 06:35 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 4,463
Likes: 196
From: Montreal, QC
It just shows the potential for confusion (in a DE context, not racing).
In my experience, signalling a pass on the inside line to a corner is only common sense but not the standard in a all regions AFAIK.
I remember a track walk with Rick Bye at Mosport when he said (I paraphrase): "There are 2 passing trajectories here at Mosport - the inside line, and the ambulance line." He knows, and I trust him
As stated above, if you give the pass, you should hold your normal line and make sure the passing car get's through smoothly - lift a bit, don't race him into making a mistake, run a bit deeper and later before turning in if you have to.
Reciprocally, I would expect the passing car to keep off line (inside) and not cut back across.
All this in a DE context, but what I like to see in the groups I run with. It's safe and cuts down some unnecessary variables.
Best,
Matt
In my experience, signalling a pass on the inside line to a corner is only common sense but not the standard in a all regions AFAIK.
I remember a track walk with Rick Bye at Mosport when he said (I paraphrase): "There are 2 passing trajectories here at Mosport - the inside line, and the ambulance line." He knows, and I trust him
As stated above, if you give the pass, you should hold your normal line and make sure the passing car get's through smoothly - lift a bit, don't race him into making a mistake, run a bit deeper and later before turning in if you have to.
Reciprocally, I would expect the passing car to keep off line (inside) and not cut back across.
All this in a DE context, but what I like to see in the groups I run with. It's safe and cuts down some unnecessary variables.
Best,
Matt
04-10-2018 | 09:06 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Joined: Mar 2015
Posts: 2,336
Likes: 430
From: Apalachin, New York
It just shows the potential for confusion (in a DE context, not racing).
In my experience, signalling a pass on the inside line to a corner is only common sense but not the standard in a all regions AFAIK.
I remember a track walk with Rick Bye at Mosport when he said (I paraphrase): "There are 2 passing trajectories here at Mosport - the inside line, and the ambulance line." He knows, and I trust him
As stated above, if you give the pass, you should hold your normal line and make sure the passing car get's through smoothly - lift a bit, don't race him into making a mistake, run a bit deeper and later before turning in if you have to.
Reciprocally, I would expect the passing car to keep off line (inside) and not cut back across.
All this in a DE context, but what I like to see in the groups I run with. It's safe and cuts down some unnecessary variables.
Best,
Matt
In my experience, signalling a pass on the inside line to a corner is only common sense but not the standard in a all regions AFAIK.
I remember a track walk with Rick Bye at Mosport when he said (I paraphrase): "There are 2 passing trajectories here at Mosport - the inside line, and the ambulance line." He knows, and I trust him
As stated above, if you give the pass, you should hold your normal line and make sure the passing car get's through smoothly - lift a bit, don't race him into making a mistake, run a bit deeper and later before turning in if you have to.
Reciprocally, I would expect the passing car to keep off line (inside) and not cut back across.
All this in a DE context, but what I like to see in the groups I run with. It's safe and cuts down some unnecessary variables.
Best,
Matt
Is there an actual print (text) document or a set of pictures that defines what PCA determines is correct, ie, tutorial
Is it regional or track or instructor group dependent on the interpretation from PCA.
This might be a good topic for a class room instruction at a DE when the track map is up on the wall in front, but nobody likes the person who asks the questions
