In Re Safety: HANS Device And Recaro HANS Seat
01-01-2004, 10:28 AM
#17
Bob, have a friend who uses them on his bike, he loves the "concept" model. I am looking for a supplier here in the states if anyone knows of one. Bob did You see my note earlier in the thread?
01-02-2004, 12:14 AM
#19
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I was going to get new 5 pt. harnesses for safety reasons (I do around 15 DE events a year) and seats, but the difference between a pair of the regular SPGs and the Hans is around $1,500, add the Hans device and that equals about $2,400 extra for the Hans gear. Although I do think of myself of putting a premium on safety this is quite a bit of money (I have a roll bar, but could probably fit a cage for this amount or much less). I do have other money set aside for performance upgrades and realize I would be making somewhat of a tradeoff here. I realize there is certainly a very real risk of having a serious accident at a DE event, but will not be racing and will have relatively little track time. I have spoken to a few others (with more track experience) about the device and they say it is absolutely a great device, but do not have it. They told me they would never tell me not to get one, but being that I am not racing and this is meant for head on collisions (hitting a wall is a very real possibility, but being rear engine I am probably just as likely hitting rear first, maybe side).
Now that I look into this I see that the problem with head injuries is that the harness itself keeps the body from moving forward without the head, unlike a regular 3 point which gives a bit before it locks, which at that point the airbag should deploy and meet the head.
So the question is, if I am not willing to spend the extra $ for the Hans and seats at this point (have yet to see one at one of my DEs, although I admit I was not looking for them), would I be safer just wearing the 3 points with the airbag? Or should I go ahead and get the regular SRD seats (or Sparco) which apparently do work with the Hans and get the Hans fitted to my helmet when $ allows? I am hoping the price comes down as the number of units sold increases. From what I understand there have been relatively few (a few thousand) sold and if that number increases I would hope the price comes down. At that point the R&D would have been paid for and you would just be paying for the deviced itself. I have no idea what it costs to produce though.
Your thoughts are appreciated. I might spring for the device, but (probably)not the extra for the seats......a budget issue does exist, if it didn't I would not be writing this.
Now that I look into this I see that the problem with head injuries is that the harness itself keeps the body from moving forward without the head, unlike a regular 3 point which gives a bit before it locks, which at that point the airbag should deploy and meet the head.
So the question is, if I am not willing to spend the extra $ for the Hans and seats at this point (have yet to see one at one of my DEs, although I admit I was not looking for them), would I be safer just wearing the 3 points with the airbag? Or should I go ahead and get the regular SRD seats (or Sparco) which apparently do work with the Hans and get the Hans fitted to my helmet when $ allows? I am hoping the price comes down as the number of units sold increases. From what I understand there have been relatively few (a few thousand) sold and if that number increases I would hope the price comes down. At that point the R&D would have been paid for and you would just be paying for the deviced itself. I have no idea what it costs to produce though.
Your thoughts are appreciated. I might spring for the device, but (probably)not the extra for the seats......a budget issue does exist, if it didn't I would not be writing this.
01-02-2004, 01:36 AM
#20
If $ are an issue a helmet restraint is better than none. Look at the sewing machine devices like the hutches and simpson and there was one on the net that was free. I can't remember who that was. Try a search for helmet restaints on google.
01-02-2004, 10:59 AM
#21
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Of course, the ISAAC device is a lot less than the HANS... (www.isaacdirect.com) and I actually prefer the design... just trying to keep the options open...
01-02-2004, 12:57 PM
#22
924racr,
Agreed. I use Isaac it was about 800 bucks and can be used on any helmet and any harness. It is small and travels well. Also, does HANS CF units have a lifespan like CF seats? CF breaks down with time. Isaac is forever as long as you don't crash it I think. Then all devices are mostly designed for single use crash like your helmet. Isacc you can also glue or bolt to your helmet and there are no exit issues and you are pretty free to move in the car. Sewing machine devices on the wayne state sled tests varied in ability to save you Vs. the snugness of application. There is no "rule" for snugness from any of the manufactureers that I have read. The Gforce unit is cheap less than 500 bucks if you use their helmet. it is not really a sewing device but still position related and not a "velocity dependant" device like Isaac. There is where the real difference between Isaac and the rest. You have to decide if the velocity dependant concept is physically valid which I believe it is.
Agreed. I use Isaac it was about 800 bucks and can be used on any helmet and any harness. It is small and travels well. Also, does HANS CF units have a lifespan like CF seats? CF breaks down with time. Isaac is forever as long as you don't crash it I think. Then all devices are mostly designed for single use crash like your helmet. Isacc you can also glue or bolt to your helmet and there are no exit issues and you are pretty free to move in the car. Sewing machine devices on the wayne state sled tests varied in ability to save you Vs. the snugness of application. There is no "rule" for snugness from any of the manufactureers that I have read. The Gforce unit is cheap less than 500 bucks if you use their helmet. it is not really a sewing device but still position related and not a "velocity dependant" device like Isaac. There is where the real difference between Isaac and the rest. You have to decide if the velocity dependant concept is physically valid which I believe it is.
01-02-2004, 03:57 PM
#23
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Originally posted by fatbillybob
...and there was one on the net that was free. I can't remember who that was. Try a search for helmet restaints on google.
...and there was one on the net that was free. I can't remember who that was. Try a search for helmet restaints on google.
Gregg Baker, P.E.
Isaac, LLC
http://www.isaacdirect.com
01-02-2004, 08:51 PM
#24
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Thanks all for pointing out the Isaac alternative. It certainly looks like a very good alternative. I'm "physics" challenged as you might say but it does make sense the whole deal. My only reservation lies with the system not being approved by a Pro series like the HANS or is it? Should I read something into that?
I'm definately getting a head restraint system before my next race so I will give a lot of thought into the Isaac as well as the Hans...
I'm definately getting a head restraint system before my next race so I will give a lot of thought into the Isaac as well as the Hans...
01-03-2004, 09:52 AM
#25
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Personally, I think the whole approval thing is more politics than technical concerns.
I was really glad I made the committment to start using a head restraint last winter (X-mas present). Only raced 3 weekends in '03, but still ended up testing ALL my gear including the ISAAC. Sort of re-emphasizes, no matter what you do, do something, and do it now! You'll definitely need it sooner than you expect to!
I was really glad I made the committment to start using a head restraint last winter (X-mas present). Only raced 3 weekends in '03, but still ended up testing ALL my gear including the ISAAC. Sort of re-emphasizes, no matter what you do, do something, and do it now! You'll definitely need it sooner than you expect to!
01-03-2004, 12:14 PM
#26
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There is a reason why sanctioning bodies like CART, NASCAR, Grand Am, SCCA World Challenge, CART and IRL recommend or require the use of the HANS device. It is more than just politics....
01-03-2004, 11:23 PM
#29
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One thing that has always intrigued me about the Isaac system - how do you verify the functional state of the 'shocks'? (not sure what they're called).
For something this important and containing a moving part I would want to have some way to ensure that they are both working properly when they are needed.
Before someone flames me...I'm not criticizing the design - I'm just curious about this point.
For something this important and containing a moving part I would want to have some way to ensure that they are both working properly when they are needed.
Before someone flames me...I'm not criticizing the design - I'm just curious about this point.
01-04-2004, 01:47 AM
#30
Rick,
As GBaker explained it to me, If you could use up all the shock travel you then have a tether that stops your head basically what hans does. Under that extreme condition the functionality is similar to any position dependant unit.
As to the reason the other bodies demand HANS I don't think NASCAR is any less racing and they allow sewing machine devices. I believe there is politics and legal reasons for this unit. Additionally there is nothing to understand. You have a halo strapped to your head and it can't move. You need to review your physics to convince yourself Isaac makes sence. The unit has no moving parts. It is either on or off and you can't screw it up in any way. Lets look at ski bindings. When I started skiing you did a release check on "your" binding at your ability to break your boots out. If you were a lame beginner you used a lighter setting because you had no skill only force. Later they came up with DIN setting and everyone my weight and general class got the "same" setting. Why is this? When you go to court the ski binding manufacturer can say we all use these setting for guy like you so too bad. Those of you who ski think about whether your DIN setting is appropriote for all the conditions "you" ski. DIN setting IMHO are a manufacturer's convenience. Those who race are constantly adjusting things. Why would you just set it and forget it on your skiis? What is HANS? I don't know the answer but the Isaac is worth a look. It works on a totally different princple of being velocity dependant. It increases its action the harder you hit just like your seatbelts stretch to absorb energy the harder you hit. From what I can tell HANS does not do that.
As GBaker explained it to me, If you could use up all the shock travel you then have a tether that stops your head basically what hans does. Under that extreme condition the functionality is similar to any position dependant unit.
As to the reason the other bodies demand HANS I don't think NASCAR is any less racing and they allow sewing machine devices. I believe there is politics and legal reasons for this unit. Additionally there is nothing to understand. You have a halo strapped to your head and it can't move. You need to review your physics to convince yourself Isaac makes sence. The unit has no moving parts. It is either on or off and you can't screw it up in any way. Lets look at ski bindings. When I started skiing you did a release check on "your" binding at your ability to break your boots out. If you were a lame beginner you used a lighter setting because you had no skill only force. Later they came up with DIN setting and everyone my weight and general class got the "same" setting. Why is this? When you go to court the ski binding manufacturer can say we all use these setting for guy like you so too bad. Those of you who ski think about whether your DIN setting is appropriote for all the conditions "you" ski. DIN setting IMHO are a manufacturer's convenience. Those who race are constantly adjusting things. Why would you just set it and forget it on your skiis? What is HANS? I don't know the answer but the Isaac is worth a look. It works on a totally different princple of being velocity dependant. It increases its action the harder you hit just like your seatbelts stretch to absorb energy the harder you hit. From what I can tell HANS does not do that.