New PCA Class - Spec 997 (997.2 C2/C2S, MT&PDK)
03-20-2018, 06:41 PM
#16
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
What is it that makes the running costs of a Cup car so much higher?
I know the stated maintenance intervals of a Cup are much more frequent than a "street" car, but wouldn't a street car used in the same manner be expected to have a similar maintenance schedule?
I'm not looking for exact figures, but how would the operating costs compare in these two scenarios?
1) A "street" 997 built out to be a race car and driven hard in a wheel to wheel racing class.
2) A GT3 cup driven sensibly for open track days.
I know the stated maintenance intervals of a Cup are much more frequent than a "street" car, but wouldn't a street car used in the same manner be expected to have a similar maintenance schedule?
I'm not looking for exact figures, but how would the operating costs compare in these two scenarios?
1) A "street" 997 built out to be a race car and driven hard in a wheel to wheel racing class.
2) A GT3 cup driven sensibly for open track days.
Other than engine and gearbox overhauls (those are the big ones), there are at least three other reasons that make the Cups more expensive:- Very few Cup drivers self support due to the complexities of the car so it’s more expensive to go to the track with it with shop support- Spare parts like bumpers, doors and other body parts and the cost of mechanical spares is massively more expensive on a Cup- The Cups run Pirellis and the spec cars run the much cheaper HoosiersThe cheap aquisition cost of Cups are also sometimes misleading as they pretty much reflect the maintenance status of the car.
03-21-2018, 08:30 AM
#18
Rennlist Member
One issue I see is that it would be extremely difficult to reach the minimum weight of the 3.6l cars with the allowed body modifications. This basically means there is one option for the class.
I understand the class was suggested by racers. How many racers does it take? It just seems like in this case an easy solution would have been to run the cars in stock class. Tech for these cars wouldn't be any easier than checking allowed changes on stock class cars. Run cost is the same, build cost is the same or more. Looks like you can run 70 pounds lighter than a "J" class PDK 997S and add a getty wing in SP997. Hard to see why a new class was needed for that.
I understand the class was suggested by racers. How many racers does it take? It just seems like in this case an easy solution would have been to run the cars in stock class. Tech for these cars wouldn't be any easier than checking allowed changes on stock class cars. Run cost is the same, build cost is the same or more. Looks like you can run 70 pounds lighter than a "J" class PDK 997S and add a getty wing in SP997. Hard to see why a new class was needed for that.
03-21-2018, 04:11 PM
#19
Race Car
If you have well over half of the active class asking for it I think they listen. J class could easily add $15k+ to the build cost and increase running costs as well. When you remove restrictions on intake, exhaust manifold, tune, shocks, links, bushings, tires, and wheels it adds up quickly. Plus I think the whole point of the Spec classes is to make it as much about the racer as possible.
03-21-2018, 05:02 PM
#20
If you have well over half of the active class asking for it I think they listen. J class could easily add $15k+ to the build cost and increase running costs as well. When you remove restrictions on intake, exhaust manifold, tune, shocks, links, bushings, tires, and wheels it adds up quickly. Plus I think the whole point of the Spec classes is to make it as much about the racer as possible.
03-21-2018, 05:18 PM
#21
Rennlist Member
Compared to SPC.. Essentially same mods but starting with a better car, and sensible aero... So for 10k more could have a much better car, with the same running costs. My only concern would be weights, they seem a little high.
I wish I would have known about this 6 months ago.... This will kill SPC and unfortunately I am just wrapping up my SPC build.... Damn it....
I wish I would have known about this 6 months ago.... This will kill SPC and unfortunately I am just wrapping up my SPC build.... Damn it....
Agree with Muller that the future looks like... spec.
03-21-2018, 05:57 PM
#22
Race Car
You were right on the manifold, SP997 allows aftermarket whereas SP996 didn't. But the rest, not so much. Below is copy/pasted from the 2018 rules. And yes, I really need to get a life.
SP997
- Air Filter and Intake. No modifications to the factory engine air inlet or intake system.
- The ECU and the flash of the computer engine management system must remain stock
- All suspension components not otherwise listed must be stock factory parts...Except where specifically noted, no solid bushings are allowed
- Front Control Arms. Stock or Porsche Factory adjustable front control arms for the GT3 “Street “model or the Tarett kit #LCA997FL is allowed
- Springs and Shocks. The Motion Control 2WNR (2‐way non remote) with 2.25” ID spring hardware, and with SP997 valve revision
- R7 Hoosier Racing Tire Sports Car DOT Radial is the primary spec tire
- Wheel /tire combined weight must be equal to or greater than 40 lbs. for fronts, and 46 lbs. for rears
Stock Classes:
- Chips are free in pre‐OBDII cars, so long as the stock rev limit, and boost control on turbocharged engines, is retained.
- Shock absorbers are free providing they are in the same location and use the same pick‐up points as supplied by the factory, with no limits on adjustability or location of the reservoir
- Shock absorbers are free
- Sway bar sizes and configuration are free
- Suspension and drive train mounting bushing and vibration absorbing materials are free
- Aftermarket 2‐piece lower control arms are allowed on the 996/997/Boxster/Cayman (solid bushing)
- Any DOT (or its European equivalent) approved
- Wheel type, style, and diameter are free
03-21-2018, 06:45 PM
#23
Rennlist Member
Spc/spb/997spec and stock class have about all the same mods
They want spec class cause people are saying that in stock class you have to buy the expensive shocks.
I used to run jrz 2 ways on my F and now run 4 ways on my gtb1 instead of 2 ways.
F""", you need a master in engineering to understand them.
Like 80% of the stock car class run 2 ways shocks which is about what 1500-2000$ more than spc shock. It doesnt make sense.
Just merge 997 with other classes and call it a day
Look at the numbers in spc, 2-4 cars per race since what 2 years? Bad move from PCA and the racers who proposed it.
Franklin was running a gen1 in gtb1 and he was on the podium very often.
They want spec class cause people are saying that in stock class you have to buy the expensive shocks.
I used to run jrz 2 ways on my F and now run 4 ways on my gtb1 instead of 2 ways.
F""", you need a master in engineering to understand them.
Like 80% of the stock car class run 2 ways shocks which is about what 1500-2000$ more than spc shock. It doesnt make sense.
Just merge 997 with other classes and call it a day
Look at the numbers in spc, 2-4 cars per race since what 2 years? Bad move from PCA and the racers who proposed it.
Franklin was running a gen1 in gtb1 and he was on the podium very often.
03-21-2018, 09:39 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
PCA does a terrible job keeping older Porsche's competitive and in some cases newer cars un-competitive. 996's are not competitive anywhere except spec 996. Maybe that is the fate of the 997 and someone has the foresight to see this and lobbied for a class of it's own. Boxsters could be competitive in E but they are not due to the rules. Cayman's are about to dominate g class. Don't bother racing F if your not in a Boxster S. GTB1 is basically Spec Cayman on steroids now. Every class with Multiple cars has a dominate car. Seems like spec classes are the only thing PCA has that keeps things equal.
03-22-2018, 12:47 AM
#25
Rennlist Member
I prefer spec classes. At least cars are equal by intent. The letter classes always have a dominant model and that is just the way it is...I learned that the hard way. That is why it is advised to decide on the class before buying/building a PCA race car and not the other way around!
03-22-2018, 10:59 AM
#26
yeahhhh no - what seb said...car is pretty much the same
yes you have to run specific shocks and springs in spec, in letters you get 3-way, yes you cant use solid bushings in spec, but both run same tire (R7), same sway bars (gt3/tarrett) same LCAs and links, both stock flash (that chip free rule is for old cars)...the differences are pretty trivial in terms of performance
I still have the spreadsheet i built with the difference between Sp996, H, and GTB1 before I chose to build to GTB1 last year. The car ended up quick enough that I could match or beat the SP996 track records with me driving it. Which says alot about the car.
You were right on the manifold, SP997 allows aftermarket whereas SP996 didn't. But the rest, not so much. Below is copy/pasted from the 2018 rules. And yes, I really need to get a life.
SP997
- Air Filter and Intake. No modifications to the factory engine air inlet or intake system.
- The ECU and the flash of the computer engine management system must remain stock
- All suspension components not otherwise listed must be stock factory parts...Except where specifically noted, no solid bushings are allowed
- Front Control Arms. Stock or Porsche Factory adjustable front control arms for the GT3 “Street “model or the Tarett kit #LCA997FL is allowed
- Springs and Shocks. The Motion Control 2WNR (2‐way non remote) with 2.25” ID spring hardware, and with SP997 valve revision
- R7 Hoosier Racing Tire Sports Car DOT Radial is the primary spec tire
- Wheel /tire combined weight must be equal to or greater than 40 lbs. for fronts, and 46 lbs. for rears
Stock Classes:
- Chips are free in pre‐OBDII cars, so long as the stock rev limit, and boost control on turbocharged engines, is retained.
- Shock absorbers are free providing they are in the same location and use the same pick‐up points as supplied by the factory, with no limits on adjustability or location of the reservoir
- Shock absorbers are free
- Sway bar sizes and configuration are free
- Suspension and drive train mounting bushing and vibration absorbing materials are free
- Aftermarket 2‐piece lower control arms are allowed on the 996/997/Boxster/Cayman (solid bushing)
- Any DOT (or its European equivalent) approved
- Wheel type, style, and diameter are free
You were right on the manifold, SP997 allows aftermarket whereas SP996 didn't. But the rest, not so much. Below is copy/pasted from the 2018 rules. And yes, I really need to get a life.
SP997
- Air Filter and Intake. No modifications to the factory engine air inlet or intake system.
- The ECU and the flash of the computer engine management system must remain stock
- All suspension components not otherwise listed must be stock factory parts...Except where specifically noted, no solid bushings are allowed
- Front Control Arms. Stock or Porsche Factory adjustable front control arms for the GT3 “Street “model or the Tarett kit #LCA997FL is allowed
- Springs and Shocks. The Motion Control 2WNR (2‐way non remote) with 2.25” ID spring hardware, and with SP997 valve revision
- R7 Hoosier Racing Tire Sports Car DOT Radial is the primary spec tire
- Wheel /tire combined weight must be equal to or greater than 40 lbs. for fronts, and 46 lbs. for rears
Stock Classes:
- Chips are free in pre‐OBDII cars, so long as the stock rev limit, and boost control on turbocharged engines, is retained.
- Shock absorbers are free providing they are in the same location and use the same pick‐up points as supplied by the factory, with no limits on adjustability or location of the reservoir
- Shock absorbers are free
- Sway bar sizes and configuration are free
- Suspension and drive train mounting bushing and vibration absorbing materials are free
- Aftermarket 2‐piece lower control arms are allowed on the 996/997/Boxster/Cayman (solid bushing)
- Any DOT (or its European equivalent) approved
- Wheel type, style, and diameter are free
03-22-2018, 01:17 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Nah, you just need a fellow canuck 
If you look at the planned numbers (so far) for this year....
MidO - up to 7
WG - 8
NJMP - 5
RAm - 5
...I think the class is healthy and growing. The first 2 years in any spec class are always tenuous - a fair amount of people sit back to see what will happen. The spec is good and with the change to a better tire this year it's going to be a break out season.
MidO - up to 7
WG - 8
NJMP - 5
RAm - 5
...I think the class is healthy and growing. The first 2 years in any spec class are always tenuous - a fair amount of people sit back to see what will happen. The spec is good and with the change to a better tire this year it's going to be a break out season.
03-22-2018, 01:33 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Spec Cayman looks to be a great class overall, and I really enjoy mid-engine dynamics. If I had a bigger pile of money to burn on building a race car I’d probably be building a SPC instead of the SPB right now.
03-22-2018, 01:40 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by jdistefa
Nah, you just need a fellow canuck
[COLOR=#333333]If you look at the planned numbers (so far) for this year....
MidO - up to 7
WG - 8
NJMP - 5
RAm - 5
...I think the class is healthy and growing. The first 2 years in any spec class are always tenuous - a fair amount of people sit back to see what will happen. The spec is good and with the change to a better tire this year it's going to be a break out season.
[COLOR=#333333]If you look at the planned numbers (so far) for this year....
MidO - up to 7
WG - 8
NJMP - 5
RAm - 5
...I think the class is healthy and growing. The first 2 years in any spec class are always tenuous - a fair amount of people sit back to see what will happen. The spec is good and with the change to a better tire this year it's going to be a break out season.
Planned numbers? How about the one that signed already lol
RA: 3
Limerock: 2
Mid ohio: 1
Its not encouraging from my point of view but lets be positive about the class!