LuigiVampa

The problem is every time someone brings up a safety measure people view it as a turn off. I watch people drive in the advanced run groups all the time without a HANS and without any proper safety gear. Some of these people have more than enough money to do the right thing but choose not to. Then there are people on a strapped budget who don't even get their car teched or replace important parts which have timed out. When do you think that tie rod is going to fail? Driving to the grid at low speed or when you are out on the track when it is under maximum load?

I have a race license so I go to a physical and I think that is a good thing. At last year's PCA NJMP race a guy drove off the track because he had a medical incident. Older guy, hot day, it could happen to a lot of us.

In DE I would say the majority of participants don't take safety seriously enough.

Blue Chip

A fellow instructor has been saying that for a long time - specifically with regards to the higher run groups. Red/Black should have mandatory safety equipment....

docwyte

Agreed, but Luigi is correct. If safety equipment is mandated, those people simply aren't going to show up. The organizations, whether Club (PCA, BMWCCA) or paid (NASA, SCCA) are actively trying to remove all barriers to have people sign up. So there's no way a safety equipment mandate will be put into place, regardless of the fact that the people spend more money on useless mods vs something that can save their lives.
The groups I run with allow harness bars, but I refuse to get into a car with one. I also won't get into convertibles where my head is at the same level, or above (miatas!) the top of the windshield. The 2" rule is fairly lax for entry level DE apparently.

Manifold

It has a lot to do with risk perception, which can be inaccurate due to ignorance (e.g., not knowing the difference a HANS can make) and various types of cognitive biases (e.g., risk will tend to be perceived as higher after an incident like this, but gradually perceived as lower as more time goes by without another incident). Risk management can also be compromised by complacency (e.g., due to factors like cost and laziness) and by overconfidence (e.g., "it won't happen to me because deep down I know I'm a better driver than the guys who crash").

These inherent human pitfalls are difficult to change, which is why event organizers and track owners have an added obligation to help create an environment in which risks are reduced. There's a lot of variation in how well event organizers and track owners do that job, so DE participants would be wise to pay attention, do some homework, and choose their events carefully. Some are quite good, whereas others should go out of business.

We can acknowledge that risk is part of what attracts us to this sport, but we can get the perceived thrill of risk through speed, g-forces, sound, etc. without actually having to crash, be injured, or be killed (which NO ONE wants).

Gary R.

I fully understand not requiring specific safety equipment for DE's ( for instance, the 5lb. fire extinguisher requirement is a joke and costs everyone over $100 to buy and mount). Requiring a proper physical has no downside. It does nothing but help the person getting it with actual knowledge of his/her condition, costs nothing to most individuals with health insurance (and about two brake pads for those with none), and may save their life and possibly the lives of others..

ExMB

While I agree with the safety aspect mentioned here one also has to take into consideration that there are a lot of smaller regions that would never be able to put on events if this was a mandate. Larger ones that turn away people at events probably wouldn't have an issue with such a requirement but at the same time it could force an imbalance in the lower run groups due to people not wanting to modify their street car. This seems like a vicious circle with no easy solution.

sbelles

What I've realized at my age is that I didn't get away with all those things I thought I did when I was younger. The consequenses are just delayed a bit.

Manifold

If a region is small and inexperienced, it would be best that they not attempt to put on events, and just stick to autox, etc. If an organization can't do something competently, don't do it, and leave it to others who can. A doctor who attempted to practice outside his areas of competence would put his patients at risk and could/should face serious sanctions.

ExMB

There never was a comment about (in)experience by a region. Everybody has to start somewhere. But we're getting OT now.

These smaller regions, with the present rules in place, have successful programs. What you are advocating, if I understand your post correctly, is to leave these events to just larger regions. You are now limiting a big section of the country, people that want to do this but don't live near "plenty of tracks". In a way asking them to constantly travel 100s of miles, possibly consuming days, and thereby limiting event access by these few larger regions with this influx of new attendees.

Like I said its a vicious circle affecting people, tracks, etc. While we are at it why not propose another tier between DEs and clubrace that can only be attended by those who have modified their street cars with new mandated safety equipment. How many would be affected by that? Would that be a step towards elitism and away from "its not the cars, its the people".

991carreradriver

Totally agree, but whatever happened to personal responsibility? I am 63 and would not even consider going on a track and endangering others needlessly. I am healthy and have two EKG's a year, including full blood workup twice a year. We don't need mandates, we need some common sense among all those that participate. A couple of years ago at a NJMSP PCA DE, a fellow got out his car after a run, sat down in his chair and died. Only few minutes of separation existed between passing in his chair and expiring on the track. Only the luck of timing makes this experience different from the Roebling incident. Maybe a routine physical once a year picks up an issue, maybe not but it can't hurt and can only help.

AO

What a shocker. Thoughts and prayers for all of those affected. Glad to hear the instructor is expected to recover.

As a fairly new instructor, I can still remember Scott from PCA National saying, "You guys have to be the craziest SOBs out there. To put your life in a complete stranger's hands... is crazy! My job is to teach you how to be safe and go home."

I'm paraphrasing there a little, but that was the basic message. And while it was a controversial topic, we did discuss grabbing the steering wheel, and one of the reasons cited for why one WOULD grab it appears to be in line with what has been reported here. Left side is incapacitated. What do you do? There isn't much time to think about it in the moment, which is why we train and talk about this stuff so hopefully we can react appropriately and save our bacon. I for one want to live another day.

There is a group here in Michigan (non-PCA) that generally discourages instructors from being in the student's car. Instead, they promote lead-follow exercises, and if you have it, the use of radio communications between Student and Instructor cars. I foresee this as being the future of HPDEs to come.

stownsen914

Firstly, condolences to the people involved in the Roebling incident. Very sad when something like this happens.

Sounds like you are one of the more responsible ones. I'd love to say that everyone should do the same, but my suspicion is that many aren't as responsible. And the problem is that drivers who make poor choices are potentially taking others' lives into their hands if something goes wrong. Especially instructors who may ride with them, but also other drivers on track.

One of the challenges in today's DE/track environment is that cars have gotten MUCH faster than they were 20 years ago, and my casual observation is the average age of drivers is higher. So a trend of medical events occurring during DE/track sessions may be upon us (no, I don't have data to back that up).

Not sure what the right answer is, but if a simple, relatively low-cost medical screening can help prevent occurrences like the one at Roebling, it seems like a good idea to me.

Scott

ProCoach

KevinGross

Unfortunately safety decisions and the decisions they drive toward are rarely back-and-white. I believe most will agree that if we raised PCA safety equipment / preparation requirements to the level seen in SCCA or pro racing, PCA HPDE would be a much smaller thing than it is today. So where do you stop, how do you decide? I don't believe for a second that the named organizations are "actively trying to remove all barriers to have people sign up" -- but they are trying to manage risk, they have to keep the events insured, and they have to attract enough participants that the events at least break even.

I'll give you my own example. Some years ago as I got into DE and autox, a five-point harness seemed like a good idea for both safety and car control reasons. Okay, got it, installed it. Got a harness bar. Some years later, local PCA decides that for my harness to be safe, my seats need to be ones designed to route the shoulder straps. Makes sense (despite the extra harness bits I already had that are intended to keep the shoulder straps in position during an incident). So out go my factory sport seats, in go a pair of gently used Recaro SRDs. Fast forward to last year, another region's track chair shared his concern that my equipment put me at danger were I to roll the car and the roof collapse. I should install a roll cage or at least a bar. He's right, there is a risk, bless him for looking out for me. But we've arrived at a point where to install a harness, I need to start cutting up my car, to manage a very small risk. As I said to Alexa just the other day, I don't know 'bout that.

NYoutftr

I was there that day.
It was only my second DE.
I believe he was with his son.
It was tragic.