Roebling death
#91
WRONGLY ACCUSED!
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I think that it should be mandatory for all driver's over 50 or anyone under a doctor's treatment for a condition that could cause an issue at high speed. Club Racing requires it (for ALL drivers) , so should PCA DE. I'll never forget the day my friend had an elderly student at Limerock whose hands shook so bad he couldn't even put his helmet on. No WAY I would have got in that right seat, he did, and the day did not go well though he didn't crash.
I have a race license so I go to a physical and I think that is a good thing. At last year's PCA NJMP race a guy drove off the track because he had a medical incident. Older guy, hot day, it could happen to a lot of us.
In DE I would say the majority of participants don't take safety seriously enough.
#92
Burning Brakes
#93
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Agreed, but Luigi is correct. If safety equipment is mandated, those people simply aren't going to show up. The organizations, whether Club (PCA, BMWCCA) or paid (NASA, SCCA) are actively trying to remove all barriers to have people sign up. So there's no way a safety equipment mandate will be put into place, regardless of the fact that the people spend more money on useless mods vs something that can save their lives.
The groups I run with allow harness bars, but I refuse to get into a car with one. I also won't get into convertibles where my head is at the same level, or above (miatas!) the top of the windshield. The 2" rule is fairly lax for entry level DE apparently.
The groups I run with allow harness bars, but I refuse to get into a car with one. I also won't get into convertibles where my head is at the same level, or above (miatas!) the top of the windshield. The 2" rule is fairly lax for entry level DE apparently.
#94
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These inherent human pitfalls are difficult to change, which is why event organizers and track owners have an added obligation to help create an environment in which risks are reduced. There's a lot of variation in how well event organizers and track owners do that job, so DE participants would be wise to pay attention, do some homework, and choose their events carefully. Some are quite good, whereas others should go out of business.
We can acknowledge that risk is part of what attracts us to this sport, but we can get the perceived thrill of risk through speed, g-forces, sound, etc. without actually having to crash, be injured, or be killed (which NO ONE wants).
#95
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Agreed, but Luigi is correct. If safety equipment is mandated, those people simply aren't going to show up. The organizations, whether Club (PCA, BMWCCA) or paid (NASA, SCCA) are actively trying to remove all barriers to have people sign up. So there's no way a safety equipment mandate will be put into place, regardless of the fact that the people spend more money on useless mods vs something that can save their lives.
The groups I run with allow harness bars, but I refuse to get into a car with one. I also won't get into convertibles where my head is at the same level, or above (miatas!) the top of the windshield. The 2" rule is fairly lax for entry level DE apparently.
The groups I run with allow harness bars, but I refuse to get into a car with one. I also won't get into convertibles where my head is at the same level, or above (miatas!) the top of the windshield. The 2" rule is fairly lax for entry level DE apparently.
#96
While I agree with the safety aspect mentioned here one also has to take into consideration that there are a lot of smaller regions that would never be able to put on events if this was a mandate. Larger ones that turn away people at events probably wouldn't have an issue with such a requirement but at the same time it could force an imbalance in the lower run groups due to people not wanting to modify their street car. This seems like a vicious circle with no easy solution.
#97
I'm in....
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My annual PCA club racing physical forces me to address the fact that at my age I cannot get away with the things that I could when I was younger. We spend a boatload of time and money on car preparation, a 20 minute session with the doctor is not a bad idea for de participants.
#98
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While I agree with the safety aspect mentioned here one also has to take into consideration that there are a lot of smaller regions that would never be able to put on events if this was a mandate. Larger ones that turn away people at events probably wouldn't have an issue with such a requirement but at the same time it could force an imbalance in the lower run groups due to people not wanting to modify their street car. This seems like a vicious circle with no easy solution.
#99
If a region is small and inexperienced, it would be best that they not attempt to put on events, and just stick to autox, etc. If an organization can't do something competently, don't do it, and leave it to others who can. A doctor who attempted to practice outside his areas of competence would put his patients at risk and could/should face serious sanctions.
These smaller regions, with the present rules in place, have successful programs. What you are advocating, if I understand your post correctly, is to leave these events to just larger regions. You are now limiting a big section of the country, people that want to do this but don't live near "plenty of tracks". In a way asking them to constantly travel 100s of miles, possibly consuming days, and thereby limiting event access by these few larger regions with this influx of new attendees.
Like I said its a vicious circle affecting people, tracks, etc. While we are at it why not propose another tier between DEs and clubrace that can only be attended by those who have modified their street cars with new mandated safety equipment. How many would be affected by that? Would that be a step towards elitism and away from "its not the cars, its the people".
#100
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Totally agree, but whatever happened to personal responsibility? I am 63 and would not even consider going on a track and endangering others needlessly. I am healthy and have two EKG's a year, including full blood workup twice a year. We don't need mandates, we need some common sense among all those that participate. A couple of years ago at a NJMSP PCA DE, a fellow got out his car after a run, sat down in his chair and died. Only few minutes of separation existed between passing in his chair and expiring on the track. Only the luck of timing makes this experience different from the Roebling incident. Maybe a routine physical once a year picks up an issue, maybe not but it can't hurt and can only help.
#101
Supercharged
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What a shocker. Thoughts and prayers for all of those affected. Glad to hear the instructor is expected to recover.
As a fairly new instructor, I can still remember Scott from PCA National saying, "You guys have to be the craziest SOBs out there. To put your life in a complete stranger's hands... is crazy! My job is to teach you how to be safe and go home."
I'm paraphrasing there a little, but that was the basic message. And while it was a controversial topic, we did discuss grabbing the steering wheel, and one of the reasons cited for why one WOULD grab it appears to be in line with what has been reported here. Left side is incapacitated. What do you do? There isn't much time to think about it in the moment, which is why we train and talk about this stuff so hopefully we can react appropriately and save our bacon. I for one want to live another day.
There is a group here in Michigan (non-PCA) that generally discourages instructors from being in the student's car. Instead, they promote lead-follow exercises, and if you have it, the use of radio communications between Student and Instructor cars. I foresee this as being the future of HPDEs to come.
As a fairly new instructor, I can still remember Scott from PCA National saying, "You guys have to be the craziest SOBs out there. To put your life in a complete stranger's hands... is crazy! My job is to teach you how to be safe and go home."
I'm paraphrasing there a little, but that was the basic message. And while it was a controversial topic, we did discuss grabbing the steering wheel, and one of the reasons cited for why one WOULD grab it appears to be in line with what has been reported here. Left side is incapacitated. What do you do? There isn't much time to think about it in the moment, which is why we train and talk about this stuff so hopefully we can react appropriately and save our bacon. I for one want to live another day.
There is a group here in Michigan (non-PCA) that generally discourages instructors from being in the student's car. Instead, they promote lead-follow exercises, and if you have it, the use of radio communications between Student and Instructor cars. I foresee this as being the future of HPDEs to come.
#102
Three Wheelin'
Firstly, condolences to the people involved in the Roebling incident. Very sad when something like this happens.
Sounds like you are one of the more responsible ones. I'd love to say that everyone should do the same, but my suspicion is that many aren't as responsible. And the problem is that drivers who make poor choices are potentially taking others' lives into their hands if something goes wrong. Especially instructors who may ride with them, but also other drivers on track.
One of the challenges in today's DE/track environment is that cars have gotten MUCH faster than they were 20 years ago, and my casual observation is the average age of drivers is higher. So a trend of medical events occurring during DE/track sessions may be upon us (no, I don't have data to back that up).
Not sure what the right answer is, but if a simple, relatively low-cost medical screening can help prevent occurrences like the one at Roebling, it seems like a good idea to me.
Scott
One of the challenges in today's DE/track environment is that cars have gotten MUCH faster than they were 20 years ago, and my casual observation is the average age of drivers is higher. So a trend of medical events occurring during DE/track sessions may be upon us (no, I don't have data to back that up).
Not sure what the right answer is, but if a simple, relatively low-cost medical screening can help prevent occurrences like the one at Roebling, it seems like a good idea to me.
Scott
#103
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The forces acting on people in the current crop of high performance cars are incredible. Places with long, sustained high speed corners place high demand on CV, respiratory and other driver health systems. The laws of physics don’t discriminate between some of the current crop of high performance street cars and many competition cars in the forces generated and sustained. Even the effort required to keep upright in a three-point OEM seat belt assembly in an OEM “sport seat” can exceed a person’s body weight, laterally and longitudinally.
For those of us who are compromised by less than stellar fitness, excess weight or simple aging, this is doubly debilitating. I’m no doctor, but I see this TWO HUNDRED DAYS a year up close, and have for a very long time.
That said, not suggesting mandatory physical exams to the level of a competition license requirement for DE. In VSCCA, we sign the entry form pledging that we know of no physical limitations that might present a problem while on track, or something like that. It’s enough to make people think, and more than a few visits to a physician...
For those of us who are compromised by less than stellar fitness, excess weight or simple aging, this is doubly debilitating. I’m no doctor, but I see this TWO HUNDRED DAYS a year up close, and have for a very long time.
That said, not suggesting mandatory physical exams to the level of a competition license requirement for DE. In VSCCA, we sign the entry form pledging that we know of no physical limitations that might present a problem while on track, or something like that. It’s enough to make people think, and more than a few visits to a physician...
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#104
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Agreed, but Luigi is correct. If safety equipment is mandated, those people simply aren't going to show up. The organizations, whether Club (PCA, BMWCCA) or paid (NASA, SCCA) are actively trying to remove all barriers to have people sign up. So there's no way a safety equipment mandate will be put into place, regardless of the fact that the people spend more money on useless mods vs something that can save their lives.
The groups I run with allow harness bars, but I refuse to get into a car with one. I also won't get into convertibles where my head is at the same level, or above (miatas!) the top of the windshield. The 2" rule is fairly lax for entry level DE apparently.
The groups I run with allow harness bars, but I refuse to get into a car with one. I also won't get into convertibles where my head is at the same level, or above (miatas!) the top of the windshield. The 2" rule is fairly lax for entry level DE apparently.
I'll give you my own example. Some years ago as I got into DE and autox, a five-point harness seemed like a good idea for both safety and car control reasons. Okay, got it, installed it. Got a harness bar. Some years later, local PCA decides that for my harness to be safe, my seats need to be ones designed to route the shoulder straps. Makes sense (despite the extra harness bits I already had that are intended to keep the shoulder straps in position during an incident). So out go my factory sport seats, in go a pair of gently used Recaro SRDs. Fast forward to last year, another region's track chair shared his concern that my equipment put me at danger were I to roll the car and the roof collapse. I should install a roll cage or at least a bar. He's right, there is a risk, bless him for looking out for me. But we've arrived at a point where to install a harness, I need to start cutting up my car, to manage a very small risk. As I said to Alexa just the other day, I don't know 'bout that.
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Mark Dreyer (08-11-2022)
#105
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Totally agree, but whatever happened to personal responsibility? I am 63 and would not even consider going on a track and endangering others needlessly. I am healthy and have two EKG's a year, including full blood workup twice a year. We don't need mandates, we need some common sense among all those that participate. A couple of years ago at a NJMSP PCA DE, a fellow got out his car after a run, sat down in his chair and died. Only few minutes of separation existed between passing in his chair and expiring on the track. Only the luck of timing makes this experience different from the Roebling incident. Maybe a routine physical once a year picks up an issue, maybe not but it can't hurt and can only help.
It was only my second DE.
I believe he was with his son.
It was tragic.