Bill Verburg

when trying to improve fitness and lose weight keep in mind that muscle is heavier than fat, I'd go by inches measured where ever the concern is

also keep this in mind weight is lost through breathing, you have to be breathing hard for a long time to lose significant weight
weight loss 10kg = 8.4kg CO2 + 1.6kg H20 of exhaled breath

another way to look at it is;
Daily intake 3.55 kg food = 430g solid macro nutrients + 17g fibre + 3.11kg water + 660 g oxygen = 770g CO2 + 290g H2O + 31g urea
in English
125oz of food = 15 oz carbs/fats/proteins + .6 oz feces + 110 oz H20 + 23 oz O2 = 27.1 oz CO2 + 10.2 oz H2O + 1.1 oz ****

avg 75kg/165lb person produces 590g CO2oz/day resting

wanna911

In units of measure a lb equals a lb whether fat or muscle. A lbs of muscle is smaller though so that would be the only parallel that could be drawn. I hear that statement though mostly from ineffective trainers when their clients don't lose weight but do lose inches around the waste when weight loss is the ultimate goal. Lost inches are not a substitute for weight loss, when weight loss is necessary. Weight becomes irrelevant once your body composition is in a healthy range, this even outweighs BMI. Until then. LOSE THE WEIGHT. This leads to a early plateaus if you are unable to manage weight loss properly. Even lean people have to lose weight when cutting. Once you are in decent shape, you early quick gains will be replaced with slow agonizing ones. Muscle gain will require a caloric surplus, but that also causes fat gain. Conversely fat loss will require a deficit which will also cause muscle loss (unless steroids). You can build muscle, grow in size and weight, and maintain fat levels but it's very very difficult if not impossible to lose fat and build muscle on a continuous basis.

At the end of the day, getting lean is HARD, for most people that aren't ectomorphs. Building muscle not as much. But if you are not enhanced, you WILL sacrifice some muscle when getting leaner. Saving muscle while cutting fat is super difficult because your body will break down muscle and use it for energy as soon as you run out of carbs. But learning how to lose and control your weight is the most valuable tool one can have. It takes lots of detailed observation, but for your health, weight control is vital.

LuigiVampa

Doing this with my work suits. Much like Cortes, who burned all his ships to provide motivation for his crew, I have been getting rid of my "big suits".

Rumor has it one pant leg is longer than the other for similar reasons.
Bill - I have been breathing all my life continuously. I'm practically an expert at it. But I still have not lost any weight! I think what you are trying to say, if I can read between the lines, is "more sex" to provide the heavy breathing.

This is very interesting and depressing. I thought more muscles required more calories and thus adding muscles created the calorie deprivation that caused fat loss. You seem to be saying the body gets rid of muscle before fat and I had not heard that before. I need to research this more as I would like to lose more weight and increase strength.

Very good thread.

wanna911

​​​​​​Only for beginners. Once you get in decent shape there is a bulking/cutting phase involved. But it's doesn't have to be the huge 30 40 or 50 lb swings you see from body builders. Most of that is to cover up steroid use. But keep a small surplus, maybe 500 calories a day or so for a couple months at a time and lift for hypertrophy (pump) not just ultimate strength. A daily surplus should only add a few (5-10) lbs if you are working out consistently and doing some high intensity calorie burning type workouts. If you do it right you can add muscle but not much fat (pending eating habits of course). This extra muscle will help you get rid of fat quicker when you start cutting again. But only do this if your weight and or body composition is acceptible. If you are over weight and have higher body fat percentages, your primary goal should be losing weight. Period. Too many guys caught in this vicious cycle of doing too much at once while visceral fat kills them from the inside out. Raise your hand if you know a guy at the track who has had a heart attack...... I know several, and even more living on borrowed time. BURN VISCERAL FAT! FAST! GET HEALTHY FIRST!

Obesity is a killer......


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anthony42hat

We aren't body builders. I don't think any of us should be "cutting".

Bill Verburg

Gotta disagree w/ most of this, weight per se is not the issue, fat that constricts your organs is. and as you noted fat is bulkier than muscle it takes up more space, restricts movement and loads the circulatory and breathing systems beyond design spec. When you lose inches you are losing fat and possibly building muscle though the 2 processes may be correlated they are not necessarily correlated.
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Currently I'm @220# same as the weight I carried when I played football in college, the big difference is waist measurement in inches, in college it was 34", currently 35" a couple of years ago when my weight got to ~240 it was 37", shirt size hasn't changed though tone and absolute strength is way down. The 2" from the waist was all fat. My doctor still says I'm overweight, but I disagree w/ him too( though I do still carry a few extra around my waist, remember 34" in college), I've ridden my bike an avg of 6500 mi a yr for the past 5 yrs( not slow, flat mi either, I'm unbeaten in the over 65 age group over 50mi), run an avg of 700mi a yr for the past 10 years( I'll hit 1000mi this year) avg of 2 hrs 40' per day every day of aerobic exercise for the past 10yrs. useless weight shows up most when going uphill, muscle weight also shows up on uphills, guess which shows up in a good way.

wanna911

You must have missed the part of my post where I said as long as your body fat is in an acceptable and healthy range. It sounds like your is. This is multi dimensional, not just weight related. That is the primary differentiation. If you are heavy and it's mostly muscle, you are ok (to a certain mass limit of course). If you are heavy and have high fat levels, you are not ok. This is when weight loss is necessary. At some point though, you are carrying too much fat to replace it all with muscle. And for most guys, they aren't doing what it would take to even come close. So their focus should shift to weight loss.

You also store toxins in fat cells, especially visceral fat cells. Having those nasty toxins stored directly next to vital organs is not a good look.

Bill Verburg

We all breath, The average adult, when resting, inhales and exhales about 7 or 8 liters of air per minute. That totals about 11,000 liters of air per day.

Inhaled air is about 20-percent oxygen. Exhaled air is about 15-percent oxygen. So only about 5-percent of breathed air is consumed in each breath. But that also varies by MET, That air is converted to carbon dioxide + water. So, as far as how much air is actually used, human beings take in about 550 liters of pure oxygen per day when resting, more when active that's all related to your base metabolic rate, and MET equivalent when active

" In epidemiological studies, estimation of total energy expenditure can only be carried out from using metabolic equivalent (MET) units calculated physical activity questionnaires, where 1 MET is generally assumed to be 3.5 ml/min/kg resting oxygen consumption (VO2 resting). Since the basal metabolic rate varies with age, the energy expenditure equivalent to 1 MET is likely to vary with age."
Since most weight loss is through the respiratory system breathed out as CO2 & H2O, you have to increase MET aka breathe deeper and faster for a longer period of time

and yes muscle uses more O2 than fat but not enough more to accelerate weight loss.

Bill Verburg

That I can agree w/

still there is no doubt that in your body this is the chemical equation for what happens to fat
C55H104O6+78O2 --> 55CO2+52H2O+energy. ie fat --> exhaled Carbon Dioxide + exhaled water + energy

Oxidizing 10 kilos of human fat requires inhaling 29 kilos of oxygen to produce 28 kilos of carbon dioxide and 11 kilos of water

deeper breathing isn't about hyperventilating but rather about necessary deeper faster breathing from exercise,

diet of course matters on the input side but on the output side it's mass of exhaled breath and heat that has to be shed, the measurable effect is inches lost

to process more O2 you need to get into the aerobic zone which is the last of 3 exercise regimes
phosphagen system is used first and for only a short period of time, think short 50 -100m sprint
glycogen-lactic acid system is up next used for a bit longer like a 400m sprint
aerobic system is up last this can run for hours depending only on energy stores, fitness and O2 supply

Matt Romanowski

This is where I like the InBody and Tanita scales. Not that mine was ever really high, but my visceral fat is 6lbs which is supposed to be good.

I agree, obesity and visceral fat kills - slowly.

wanna911

I really like the tanita though the body fat part is not very accurate for guys like me. It rewards you for being skinny, regardless of muscle. I think it's backed up by bmi parameters. The visceral fat and metabolic age are always on point though. The look on people's face when they are 30 and their metabolic age is 70 is a real eye opener.

Matt Romanowski

My results don't show a metabolic age. I'll have to ask when I go next week.

wanna911

Oh, do you have a home tanita? The one I'm talking about is the corporate one that prints out the results and has a stand alone monitor connected by a long cable. It costs 3k.

Matt Romanowski

I use it at the nutrionist. It's a MC-780u.

LuigiVampa

I agree Bill - my comments about heavy breathing through sex were just me joking around.


On another note, how many of you are working with intermittent fasting? I pulled this up from healthline and have been thinking about doing the 16/8 plan. It would also curb my late night snacking.

Anyone have any success with any of these plans?

These are the most popular methods:

• The 16/8 method: Also called the Leangains protocol, it involves skipping breakfast and restricting your daily eating period to 8 hours, such as 1–9 p.m. Then you fast for 16 hours in between.
• Eat-Stop-Eat: This involves fasting for 24 hours, once or twice a week, for example by not eating from dinner one day until dinner the next day.
• The 5:2 diet: With this methods, you consume only 500–600 calories on two non-consecutive days of the week, but eat normally the other 5 days.