Thundermoose

Peter and I are saying same thing as article you posted. My original point to Mike (supported by what you posted explicitly) is that if I am at max braking (which we can argue if I am) is that are no G's left for turning.

The whole idea of trail braking is that once you're past the initial hard braking you get Gs back that you can now use for turning - that is ride the perimeter of the traction circle.

Also if you look at my video, just turning itself will scrub speed so no need to add extra braking to slow down even more. My car doesn't have a brake pressure reading so I use long G's. You can see that I am still showing deceleration just from the slight steering angle input so I am effectively brake turning but just with out brakes.

I still view "trail braking" to be an activity where I am adding additional steering input after initial hard braking but while I am still managing weight transfer with brakes. Corners like the bitch at Hallett, Turn 7 at WGI, Turn 1 at VIR, Turns 11,12,13 at COTA.

I am probably brake turning at many other corners but my mental focus is different as the braking is shorter and I am trying to find a way to get to bottom side of circle - more acceleration and open steering wheel.

Here's an attachment of trace of that lap. Appears that I do have some steering angle but I am actually opening wheel while braking. I added a GSum channel and feel like I am making pretty good use of my available G's in 1.

TXE36

Are you running aero by any chance? One thing that stood out to me was your ~90 MPH near the apex of T2. My car, without aero, was holding on by its fingernails there at about 82 MPH. Tires were NT-01:


ETA: To the OP, the brake indicator in the above video is wired to the brake light switch. You can see in many turns I am on the brakes as I turn in.

-Mike

ProCoach

+1

TXE36

No disagreement with that statement from me. By definition, trail braking cannot be at max braking for the reasons you cited. (Well, it can, if you like spinning like Teddy Kennedy. )

-Mike

Mike Billings

Try it in a kart. The traction effect on the front wheels is super-amplified.

After that, the subtle effect you feel in a car can be seen with some perspective.

Slakker

And all I was saying is based upon what I’ve read, you have more grip when you are turning AND braking then when you are turning OR braking.

You asked about trailbraking at T1 at TWS and I gave my input without expectation. But there are other here much more knowledgeable then me so if it offers you no value then it’s all good by me.

ProCoach

FIFY. All good!

spruden

Bingo. OP, there is a ton of detail floating around this thread. Remember, even drivers that have been at the top of the game for decades continue to hone their brake release skills. It's all about thinking of the brake pedal as a turning device. I use three steps to help folks practice this on track.

Step 1: In order to "turn the car with the brake", you need to send the right information to your brain - this will sound lame and overused, but it all starts with vision. You need to be looking far enough ahead, way earlier than you likely are, to get proper inputs into your head. Go a session or two just forcing your head to pivot way early to the apex, or track out point - do this dozens of times until you get comfortable looking farther ahead approaching turns than you ever have before. It also helps to quiet down your motions a bit while you practice - ignore a downshift or equivalent so you can really practice.

Step 2 - now that your vision is sending inputs to your brain, it's time to focus on the brake release. Make this as smooth as possible - meaning you should feel no weight transition when you come off the brake and move to the throttle for maintenance or acceleration. Do this for 2 sessions minimum - ideally an entire day. Do it over and over again on every single turn. Make it perfect. Also quiet down your movements - if you normally go to 3rd - stay in 4th for instance. Make your brain focus on the smoothest possible release.

Step 3 - Master the "turn" with the brake pedal. Now it's time to put these skills together - pick a safe turn or two to experiment, using your super human vision to guide you, extend your now silky smooth brake release closer and closer to the apex. In doing this you will shift your thinking from the beginning brake point to your end of braking point. Most folks will start to automatically adjust their braking point/force and begin to rotate the car under complete control when braking. Begin adding in your downshifts and you'll be well on your way.

Repeat this practice routine anytime you get rusty or need a refresher.

Matt Romanowski

Here's some great info that Ross Bentley put up this morning as well. It applies to this thread topic perfectly https://speedsecrets.com/ask-ross/q-...r-entry-speed/

AdamBrouillard

It might be useful to separate the line optimization and car control implications of combining braking with turning. From a line optimization standpoint, combining them is faster because of how they affect the direction of force provided by all four tires. You want to maximize this force accelerating the car in the same direction as the corner entry edge. This has nothing to do with load transfer as the rear tires are helping increase this force as well. If you raised your CG and increased load transfer you would have poorer corner entry performance because you would be generating less overall force because of tire load sensitivity. If a car only had brakes on the front, increased load transfer would help turn, but most cars aren't built like that. That would be something like a reverse drag racing car.

All cars want to maximize this force during corner entry which is typically done by trail braking, but you have to work out how to maximize it in each one and then deal with the car control implications as best you can. I like to say that you have to figure how a vehicle makes grip. Some cars may oversteer during trail braking, some may understeer. Some may go from one to the other. Rear brake only karts are a good example of something out of the ordinary. A typical trail braking line would underutilize the front tires so skilled karters tend to pitch the karts and use very high slip angles with somewhat more circular entry lines to help generate the ideal corner entry forces. If you added front brakes to these karts you would see a more traditional spiral shaped corner entry line. They would also be faster, all else being equal.

Slakker

Thundermoose

I think Peter's clarification on front grip vs total grip settles the slight misunderstanding between us.

dan212

Braking isn't mashing the pedal at the last moment. That best case unsettles the car and as you have found, can be too late.
Brakes do two things. Slow the car and balance the car. Brakes are not an on-off switch.
Think of your braking as a parabola. A very steep curve to max brake (as needed) and then a longer slope as you ease off the brakes. Extend the slope deeper into the corner as desired.
Too early - short peak and you can modulate as desired, long curve. Too late and the peak lasts longer with a shorter sloping tail

Its how you get off the brakes. Balance the car. Control weight transfer and suspension.

I've always loved this interview with Jackie Stewart:

ProCoach

Excellent exercise!

usccharles

I totally agree too.

And i notice working on trail braking / brake steering really forces one to have better vision on the track as well. I didn’t think about it until you mentioned it but it almost forces you to have better vision when trying get the brake release correct. You have to visualize where your apex is going to be and aim to be fully off the brakes before you hit it and be also be ready for a smooth transition on to the throttle and this cannot happen if you are not looking in the right direction! Wonderful insight though. Now I will have a mental note to focus on my vision more and hopefully will be able to translate that into better braking and turning. Thank you 😊