learning to trail brake
12-03-2017, 04:16 PM
#16
I also TB everywhere but I am also in a front engine car. Do you TB'ers do so with left foot? I HT downshift then immediately switch (this is the only unsettling of my car) to LFB FTG and balance the two pedals in the turn. I tend to see the apex and throttle into it and drift the car out. So I'm adding throttle before the apex but I might also not be fully off the brake yet. I really stay away from any coasting (my definition no gas or brake) because my car feels very unsettled when I do that.
12-03-2017, 04:25 PM
#17
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by 38D
Agree that you need data to really know what is fastest. But Macro level, you should try braking earlier, but releasing some brake sooner as well. Trail braking isn’t about going into a turn super deep, it’s about where you release the brake. A brake pressure trace would be really helpful. Or just riding along with someone that does it well.
12-03-2017, 05:58 PM
#18
Race Car
Originally Posted by Brian C in Az
Proper trailbraking is not mashing the brakes in the corner. You are describing the common misconception of how to trail brake.
12-03-2017, 06:29 PM
#19
I trail braked the snot out of of T1 at TWS. Do it just right with enough speed and the suspension was set for T2. I'm definitely in the camp of trailbrake every corner.
Ever rule has to have an exception, and I too SL brake at T19 at COTA out of convenience mostly. At the exit of T18 I just continue the turn as as the car crosses the track diagonally heading for T19 I brake in a straight line.
YMMV - yep, big time.
As for the OP, I recommend judging braking by looking where you want to come off the brakes and letting your brain come up with the solution. Trail braking is a finesse move to get more rotation in the car. Once you have enough finesse to alter the rotation without spinning the car, looking at where you want to come off the brakes should be enough to pull it off with practice.
I admit, I have a hard time explaining it as this is one of the few driving skills where I'm kind of a natural - I trailed braked my very first session on a racetrack, I'm sure there will be others to follow who can do a better job of explaining it.
-Mike
Ever rule has to have an exception, and I too SL brake at T19 at COTA out of convenience mostly. At the exit of T18 I just continue the turn as as the car crosses the track diagonally heading for T19 I brake in a straight line.
YMMV - yep, big time.
As for the OP, I recommend judging braking by looking where you want to come off the brakes and letting your brain come up with the solution. Trail braking is a finesse move to get more rotation in the car. Once you have enough finesse to alter the rotation without spinning the car, looking at where you want to come off the brakes should be enough to pull it off with practice.
I admit, I have a hard time explaining it as this is one of the few driving skills where I'm kind of a natural - I trailed braked my very first session on a racetrack, I'm sure there will be others to follow who can do a better job of explaining it.
-Mike
12-03-2017, 06:36 PM
#20
Burning Brakes
Thundermoose - TXE36 is not going to have a similar driving style as you, so it isn’t a good comparison for the OP. You’re on the ragged edge of death. He is enjoying DEs. Two entirely different styles of driving that will be braking very differently.
Last edited by surlynkid; 12-03-2017 at 06:57 PM.
12-03-2017, 06:40 PM
#21
Like TM it was all I could do to just stop at T1 and once I didn't even manage that 
More or less I was at full throttle once I turned in, so not sure where I am trailing to there.
More or less I was at full throttle once I turned in, so not sure where I am trailing to there.
Last edited by Kevin Fennell; 12-03-2017 at 06:55 PM.
12-03-2017, 06:44 PM
#22
Rennlist Member
To the OP, a better term instead of trail braking is brake turning. Keep that in mind as you get more comfortable learning it 
Last edited by Veloce Raptor; 12-03-2017 at 08:13 PM.
12-03-2017, 08:33 PM
#23
It would be interesting to see your trace data in 1. I was flat through transition and doing about 142 when I started braking. It was all I could do to get the car slowed down and stay on track. I wouldn't have any G's left to be turning as well. Also at what point would you stop trail braking - certainly not at the apex.
I'm wondering how you got the car pointed correctly for T2 with SLB in T1.
Perhpas VR can chime in with how he did T1.
-Mike
12-03-2017, 08:45 PM
#24
Race Car
Originally Posted by Thundermoose
It would be interesting to see your trace data in 1. I was flat through transition and doing about 142 when I started braking. It was all I could do to get the car slowed down and stay on track. I wouldn't have any G's left to be turning as well. Also at what point would you stop trail braking - certainly not at the apex.
I only got to spend one day on TWS and it’s a big ***** track for sure. But trailbraking my 2520lbs dry C2 with stock brakes into T1 worked very well for most of the day. By the end though, I thought my brakes were shot because I couldn’t slow down quick enough and felt like I was going to go off. When I went home and looked at the data, my brakes were fine. It was my nerves that were shot. I was trying to over slow and had quit looking for my apex/trackout. YMMV.
12-03-2017, 09:13 PM
#25
Our cars are different. 142 MPH is my car's theoretical flat out, 7000 RPM (redline) in 5th (highest) gear. You probably have at least 100 more HP than me. Max it was ever going to do is about 130 or so before braking. If I was doing it really well I'd trail off the brakes just before the infamous yellow box carrying enough speed to have the suspension set for T2. I was more concerned with getting moar power down sooner for T2 than lengthening the front straight.
I'm wondering how you got the car pointed correctly for T2 with SLB in T1.
Perhpas VR can chime in with how he did T1.
-Mike
I'm wondering how you got the car pointed correctly for T2 with SLB in T1.
Perhpas VR can chime in with how he did T1.
-Mike
12-03-2017, 09:22 PM
#26
Your total grip available, measured in G €™s, is greater when braking(or accelerating) and turning than braking alone or turning alone. I don €™t understand why just that it €™s a physics thing.
I only got to spend one day on TWS and it €™s a big ***** track for sure. But trailbraking my 2520lbs dry C2 with stock brakes into T1 worked very well for most of the day. By the end though, I thought my brakes were shot because I couldn €™t slow down quick enough and felt like I was going to go off. When I went home and looked at the data, my brakes were fine. It was my nerves that were shot. I was trying to over slow and had quit looking for my apex/trackout. YMMV.
I only got to spend one day on TWS and it €™s a big ***** track for sure. But trailbraking my 2520lbs dry C2 with stock brakes into T1 worked very well for most of the day. By the end though, I thought my brakes were shot because I couldn €™t slow down quick enough and felt like I was going to go off. When I went home and looked at the data, my brakes were fine. It was my nerves that were shot. I was trying to over slow and had quit looking for my apex/trackout. YMMV.
12-03-2017, 09:51 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
On the gas across the transition. On the brakes not particularly hard just after the bumps. Some slight left turning as I did a single 5-4 downshift and then off the brakes. A brief pause to settle the car and then on throttle
12-03-2017, 10:17 PM
#28
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12-03-2017, 10:27 PM
#29
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The term "trail-braking" (a concept first championed by Skip when he founded his eponymous school in 1975) became so corrupted by improper use, that to differentiate turning the car while braking (what people called "trail braking," even though the brakes were not used in those instances to help TURN the car) from "brake-turning," or using the brakes PAST the point of steering input to continue to weight the nose, quicken steering response or otherwise influence favorably the change of direction.
It started showing up in instructor curriculum guide books at SBRS a few years after the school's sale to Michael Culver, perhaps around 2001-2002. The whole idea was to be cognizant that you were in fact still applying SOME brake pressure past the steering initiation and could "feel" the weight distribution of the car centered on the outside front tire, resulting in rotation around THAT axis. That you were not just "turning" but "brake-turning," by using the brakes to HELP improve and quicken your turning. Since this is likely the performance capability MOST underutilized by track day, DE and club racing level drivers, it IS a fundamental skill that must be mastered in order to progress. Does every corner require it? No, but slower, longer ones definitely do...
Pretty cool.
12-03-2017, 11:48 PM
#30
Race Car
Originally Posted by ProCoach
Yep. Which is why the Friction Circle is ROUND, not SQUARE!
Tune to Win
Carrol Smith
Page 25
Last edited by Slakker; 12-04-2017 at 12:03 AM.