JP66

Just curious what people use for their own gouge when looking to buy a race car. I have now purchased 2 race cars and both times I did not give consideration to how many hours were on the engine when negotiating the price, and I'm not sure it would have made a difference because it didn't seem to me the available cars offered specifics of how many hours were on an engine. In the world of airplanes engine hours are carefully monitored and dramatically affect pricing.

What do other buyers of race cars consider with regard to engine life and pricing? Obviously I realize it will vary considerably from class to class.

Thank as always.

Joe

por944s2

Very valid point, but can't say there is a universal answer. My 968 motor has ~120 hours on it and it 30hp off from fresh rebuild and is consuming 2.5 qrts of oil for a three day race weekend, up from less then 1qrt when new. Compression is off 5% across the stack, and will do a leak-down after the Pitt Race to see if the issue is valves or rings. Honest hours, compression test , leak down and oil consumption would be a good start for engine condition. Just a hacks musing.

zmon

depends if its a street car motor or a hours (race) motor. cup car, yes. BMW M3, no.

and then with certain motors they had weaknesses.. so you could see if those things have been addressed. an example of this is bearings on an S54 (E46 M3 motor).

and for overall motor health you could perform leak down and compression to get a gauge on overall health regardless of street motor or race motor.

Frank 993 C4S

When I bought my race cars, a through PPI that showed over-revs, compression and leak down was more important than engine hours. If you are looking at engine hours, it is important to distinguish between road and track hours. My previous M97 engine required a preventive rebuild after 25000 race miles.

rlm328

A lot depends on what kind of car you are looking at. If it is a Cup car it can have a significant affect on how much you pay considering an engine rebuild is on the order of $50k and they have a limited life span (under 100 hrs). If it is a street car converted to a race car then I would agree with Frank.

Brian C in Az

The unfortunate truth is that most sellers of race cars lie about pretty much everything. All race cars are advertised as "race ready"
Few are even close.
You should always consider the engine as being ready for a refresh. If it has more than 1 weekend of life left in it, then you are way ahead of the typical scenario.

You buy it. You take it to the track and figure out what needs to be done. Then you start the process.....

pu911rsr

This- buying a track car is usually the cheap part

LuigiVampa

All the above is good info. Part of the equation is also a combination of luck and how you drive the car.

First year of racing I was blowing up clutches and pressure plates because my heel/toe was not very proficient. Then it swings the other way and you beat on the car more because you are trying to extract every last ounce out of the car.

Then there is luck. Sometimes parts just fail and sometimes they live past some tough abuse. When I bought my car the engine had been raced hard, and then I raced it hard for two more years - way past what I should have gotten - before it blew up.

ProCoach

Every race car I've bought or sold (and I dealt them, for a while, so the number is up around a hundred cars in the last fifteen years), is and has been sold "as-is, where-is."

Rarely have I been surprised in the positive direction with a used competition or track day car's condition. Adjust your expectations...

My experience doesn't parallel Brian C's though. Most sellers are blissfully unaware of how many miles/hours or what kind of condition their car is in. They're not crooks, they'e just not tracking this stuff and more often, their shop doesn't either.

The only time I trust hours/miles is when a log is provided and I buy from top-flight pro teams. Everything on "big" cars is tracked and lifed. It's crazy not to. A Boxster or a Cayman, no so much. A very thorough pre-purchase can reveal a lot, as can asking for and reviewing previous repair orders, if available. Then, a rough "log" can sometimes be reconstructed.

The other thing is that when a car goes from one shop to another (or even an engine or gearbox), the new shop invariably, sometimes to protect themselves, sometimes to "go down the list to make sure there will be no problems" ends up spending a lot of money and care on a perfectly serviceable car.

For example, I sold a good, used 1985 Swift DB-2 Sports 2000 with a "no-name" motor (not built by one of the Big Two builders for the class) for $29K, delivered it to Road Atlanta and did a 1:30.1 in three laps (class record for modern cars in this class is high 1:28's, not bad for 150 bhp). The buyer had a pleasant, albeit slower (1:34-35 laps) weekend and was SHOCKED (as I was) when his shop gave him a $25K bill for "going over the car" after that race before the next season. We both knew what was going on and it cost that shop a valuable client when he decided to go elsewhere.

One person's idea of satisfactory is another person's idea of required replacement/tuning/rebuild/setup. It's amazing, but it's just the way it is. This can also go for street cars, to a lesser extent. Some shops are only comfortable when they are the last ones that touched every bolt on the car.

I buy cars (track cars) based on demonstrable performance, most notably lap times. If the car was fast in the recent past, it can (and should) be able to duplicate this, no matter what shop is looking after the car. As Brian Redman once told me, "the only data acquisition device that matters in the end is the stopwatch." That is often the best criteria for the purchase of a club level or entry level pro competition car, IMO. As far as living individual components, that is what Zyglo, oil analysis, compression and leak down as well as a good test drive and evaluation are for...

Rob S

Another myth is that "race cars have parts that time out and street cars don't." For example, a 996 Cup engine, with a PMNA-designated rebuild interval of 60 hours is, for all practical purposes, the same as a 996 GT3 street engine. If you track a"street" car the same as a race car (and some do), then you should have the same service concerns that follow the race car. But often, those with "street" cars ignore this, figuring "it's not a race car." There's no free lunch here...

JP66

As I expected . . . it really comes down to "caveat emptor". So next question: what are people's opinions on preemptive rebuild versus waiting for the engine to show a sign or worse break down in a race. Specifically I have a great car right now. A 2004 Boxster S that was built as a race car in 2012. It had only 19000 street miles on the engine and has had no mods since. It was raced hard for 4 seasons. At the moment it shows no signs of wear. I feel like if I got another season out of it I should consider myself lucky.

Would you rebuild at the end of next season or wait for a sign of wear or an actual breakdown? Is a preemptive rebuild significantly cheaper?

Thanks again.

Frank 993 C4S

The best and cheapest time to rebuild a race engine is when it still is in one piece and when you are in the off season not looking to drive it.

A lot of times, failures are so catastrophic that you cannot get core value for your old engine and you might damage other parts of the car (transmission) at the same time. Oil analysis, leak down, compression and checking over-revs are usually a good indication of when it's time. You are in good hands with Speedsport. Follow Spencer's advice.

rlm328

One of the main differences in a Cup engine and the street car is the rods. The Cup car runs a light alloy, and rod fatigue is their concern.

Rob S

Actually, that is not quite correct. It's getting off the track of the original post, but I'd like to set the record straight. The Cup and street 996 GT3s, as well as the GT3 R engines, used identical bottom end components -- the same crank, case, and titanium rods. Other than compression and flow enhancements on the Cup from slight differences in pistons, heads, and cams, the major mechanical difference of consequence to longevity for the Cup was that it had no variocam. So, the Cup engine was actually mechanically simpler than the street engine -- and arguably less prone to failure. Hence, there is no reason why a street GT3 engine shouldn't be on a very similar service/rebuild schedule as the Cup if they are used similarly. The obvious difference is that the average Cup engine is used very hard compared to the average street engine. But not always...

To the question of pre-emptive rebuilds, it comes down to your comfort level. What can you do to assess its condition to convince yourself you're okay for another year? It's sort of like buying insurance: what premium are you willing to pay to head off a potential loss? And what would that loss really be? If you did not rebuild, and you lunch the engine next year, what will it "cost" you versus the cost of a rebuild now? As others have said, if compression and leakdown are good, serious overrevs have not occurred, it doesn't make any strange noises, and an oil analysis shows normal condition, you might be just fine for awhile. The other thing to remember is that rebuilds are not always infallible -- getting inside an engine occasionally causes troubles too, even if done by a pro. Sometimes it's "better the devil we know!"

Thundermoose

My car is E46M3. I do a leak down test once a year or if I do something stupid like money shift along with Blackstone oil testing each oil change. As long as results are fine then I am not touching engine. Rod bearings are easy to replace on my car. Valve adjustment once a year as well.

I bought a junkyard engine two years ago and rebuilt in the garage . That's my back up if my current goes kaboom.

Short answer is that I wouldn't do anything to your engine if leak down and oil sample results are good.