rlm328

You will be ok with the angry Bs. They are mostly pretty decent drivers with most of the cars fairly competitive against each other. Go out and have fun you will never look back.

From what I have seen in my short history is that 911s are difficult to drive properly. Of all the 911s I have seen driven I can count on one hand drivers who knew what they were doing with the car. Most I have seen do not really corner well with the average driver. The driver in #69 reminds me of most of the 911s driven by sub-average drivers, slow through the corners and hard on the accelerator, the" please save me" button just acerbates this problem. He should never have been given a license much less have it taken away. Just amazing what money can buy you.

Flame suit is on.

987part

This is why everyone should start on a low powered car, not jumping in a cup car after such a low track experience !!!

Im still amazed in PCA the variety of driver skills.

E cars running H-I-J time
Gtb1 running Cup time

Im glad that PCA is still very clean racing

mpruden

Tell me about it.

I'm in the process of building a Spec E46 to race with NASA here in NorCal. If this were 2018, I would have been in that race (although no where near Webster's pace). This makes me think I'm going down the wrong path. Definitely not interesting in "racing" people like shown in that video. Heck, I leave DEs when I see driving like that. It's not worth the risk.

I'm confused by the NASA / PRC relationship here. Seems like there should be one unambiguous, accountable organization responsible for ensuring this doesn't happen again.

BTW - I've talked to some folks in the Spec E46 community up here - to say they are furious is an understatement.

Frank 993 C4S

The video is very disturbing to me too and I won't speculate why this person was allowed to race with this particular organization BUT it should not deter you from Club Racing because this is not typical of what happens out there.

Fact is that (almost) anybody can get a race license from one of the schools and start racing with the various organizations. Some folks won't display the right attitude or cause incidences and will then get banned by those organizations, so they pop up elsewhere. How these organizations deal with rules, regulations and driving varies widely so before you start Club Racing educate yourself about which organization would suit you best. For example, HSR, PCA and SVRA are strictly no contact and I feel that's an excellent principle for Club Racing.

On the other side, damage to cars occurs because frankly $hit happens, stuff breaks or people make mistakes and drive themselves or others off the track. Unfortunately, that will always be part of racing.

Veloce Raptor

+1

dgrobs

Thanks for the response Frank. (And others). Words of wisdom for sure, but not an answer to my question.

I understand EXACTLY what you are saying, but that's not what happened here.

"$hit happens, stuff breaks or people make mistakes", yes, of course that will always be part of racing. I don't even race yet and I understand that. That is clearly NOT what happened here.
Someone tried to unsafely pass and put other peoples lives at risk doing it.
Getting ahead of someone IS NOT as important keeping your brothers alive, or at the very least, keeping them out of the ER.

I know what the #69 driver did. It's pretty black and white in the video. I am questioning why he was allowed to drive with you folks at all. His behavior was clearly aggressive and dangerous BEFORE this incident occurred.

I know that racing is not DE. There is a much higher level of risk when racing. Why was this guy allowed to heighten that risk? That's my question.

Maybe I just don't understand what racing is about yet, but I can't imagine that it's about not caring about hurting your fellow racers.

I gotta be missing something here. Sorry if I sound like a racing newbie, but I just don't understand why that behavior was tolerated to begin with.

All the BMW guy was doing was trying to have fun with his fellow racing buddies, and now he's gotta deal with a cracked up abdomen for at least a year. More than 6 broken ribs? Really. Just so that #69 guy could get ahead of him? I just don't get why it was allowed to happen.

This was way more than "$hit happens". This was dangerously aggressive driving by #69 and not giving a crap who he hurt. If that's allowed in club racing, maybe sticking to DE is more my speed after all. Guess I'm a woos.

I still want to start racing though. Wish I never saw that video.

Frank 993 C4S

I tried to answer that in the first part of my response in that different organizations deal with people like this in different ways so be careful about too much generalizing "Club Racing". I have seen several people kicked out of HSR and PCA for very good reasons.

Also, keep in mind that for the Race Stewards to react, this sort of behavior needs to be reported by fellow racers in a constructive manner Why it was presumably tolerated in this particular case, I do not know. Maybe it was not raised to the Race Stewards attention - but now I'm speculating.

dgrobs

Understood. You did answer it. Thanks.
I guess you have to catch the fish before you can cook it.
Maybe this thread will do some good if and when someone recognizes that car or those drivers at some track down the road, hopefully BEFORE the car gets on the track.
Doubt that's much consolation though to the BMW driver with the broken ribs. Feel bad for him. Hope he recovers quickly and in as little pain as possible. Broken ribs are tough, been there, but it could have been worse, so I guess that's a good thing.
Still, should never have been allowed to happen to begin with. Like i said, maybe will someone will see this video and it will do some good in the future.

Thanks again for the reply Frank. I know I have a lot to learn. Thanks.

winders

Back up guys....

I don't know that there was any behavior seen in our race group by that driver that would have allowed other drivers or the race steward to predict that kind of reckless passing was going to take place. I know that the Cup Car drivers were given the racing philosophy talk a couple of times. I can guarantee that our drivers and race steward did not just sit on their hands or close their eyes. There's decades of experience in the group.

As I said it's real easy to Monday morning quarterback when you can put on your hindsight glasses.

What I heard about indicated a lack of track familiarity and some impatience. After seeing this driver race, I suspect he does not have a lot of experience in multi-class racing with him being one of the faster cars.

Also, dgrobs, if you think Club Racing is always sunshine and unicorns, maybe you should stick to DE events. Stupid choices are sometimes made and sometimes there are wrecks. Even in the best of groups.

winders

You are talking out of you *** now. Get some experience BEFORE you start talking like you know it all....

Mahler9th

I have been racing for about 20 years. I have been a PCA member for 30 years, and have done track driving for 30 years. East Coast, Midwest and here in CA.

I helped create the PRC in 2001.

The PRC is NOT a sanctioning body. We are a non-profit. Our Chief Steward is NASA official and has been racing himself since about 1965.

The three GT3 drivers that joined us last weekend were unknown to us. We have let driver's unknown to us race with us many times, and they are walked through our rules in an organized and systematic way. Some of these folks post here on Rennlist from time to time.

We have had pro racers join us, as well as amateurs running in series like the GT3 Challenge. And we have some racers whom have raced in series like that.

I can recall a few instances where folks did not follow the rules... spirit or letter. I can even name names since there are so few.

Read our rules and those of SCCA, PCA, BMWCCA and others. And remember that our rules are designed for a relatively small pool of racers (I'd guess less than 100 individuals since we started), and basically only two tracks-- Sears point and Thunderhill.

I'd say we have a great "risk culture," but one that cannot be replicated with big programs like SCCA, PCA Club Racing and others.

I encourage folks not to overreact regarding racing, the PRC, Club Racing et cetera. Experienced and accomplished racers and stewards can tell the difference between things like over-driving, over-aggressive behavior and what I'll call douche-baggery.

For those interested in Spec E46 in our area, I encourage you to talk to those already enjoying that class. That's advice I'd give to anyone interested in this form of motorsport. And I suggest that some of that talk is in person as opposed to via internet forums and keyboards.

In this thread you've heard from two people in the race in question. Both with a lot of experience, and in my case that crosses over to a variety of sanctioning bodies, including PCA and SCCA. Go back and read what we wrote. We were there.

There will always be folks in this sport that cross boundaries at times and in ways that the majority do not support.

I keep thinking about the head of PCA Club Racing giving us instructions as guest racers at RR IV at Laguna. He was very specific. We were there as guests to put on a show and that required our best behavior. I remember the instructions NOT to cross over into the pit out lane at the start. Very clear. Crystal.

I also remember coming around on lap two and seeing a cone in the middle of the track at turn 2 entry and wondering how it got there. I remember a few weeks later seeing the TV show (narrated by the great Bob Varsha) and seeing how the cone got there. One racer decided to ignore the message about that lane and tried to pass my buddy underneath headed into 2. The pass did not stick and he hit the cones that track stewards put there so guys wouldn't run into that lane. I heard later that he hit a couple of guys during the race.

There will always be people like that in all levels of racing.

They are vastly outnumbered by the good people. This past race weekend we saw one of the good people get back into a race car after a cancer diagnosis last December and subsequent treatment (including surgeries).

Passion and inspiration!

Mahler9th

And before I forget... everyone that races in the PRC group under NASA sanction must follow PRC rules. They are a little different and more stringent than normal NASA rules. I think the BMW's are getting used to them and I suspect appreciate the difference

dgrobs

I know very little compared to all of you concerning racing.
I know that.
And you're right, I should stick to DE for now. If I don't understand what I saw in that video, then maybe racing is not my thing.
Thanks for the advice.
Sorry I upset you. A know it all is the last thing I am. Sorry.

ProCoach

Why are you so abrasive sometimes, Scott? The guy has raised some good points and is ASKING QUESTIONS, not acting like a know-it-all.

The whole "just racing," "$#it happens" and "there are always going to be bad people, but a majority are good" is just a rationalization for officials, organizations and cultures not articulating expected behavior well enough, enforcing their existing rules in a even, consistent and impartial manner and ultimately FAILING their participants and their organization's mission.

As long as this stuff (generically stated, NOT this particular instance) is allowed to continue or be excused, people will drive with less margin, poorer judgement and more entitlement. There is plenty of data to support the decline in driving standards... Everywhere...

I have sat in MANY PCA Club Racing Rookie Orientations and have heard scrut's tell the group on more than one occasion "PCA Club Racing has fewer accidents than any other group" and "the incident rate has been going down over time" when three days later, we're all in the paddock reviewing the significant number of cars brought in on the flatbed with damage, some multi-car. The data does NOT support these statements. Period. You could substitute NASA, HSR or SVRA for PCA Club Racing in the above sentence and it's the same deal, so this is not a slam on any ONE group.

It's going to have to change to get better. Whether it's participants quicker to report concerning on-track behavior, tighter enforcement of contact rules (and NOT loosening them, as in "you can continue after contact until the end of the race" or "No 13/13 for GT4 CS"), or even officials acting PROACTIVELY to park people BEFORE concerns potentially turn into contact incidents, SOMETHING will have to change for this to get better and TRULY drop the incident rate.

Four or five years ago, I rarely, if ever, saw a car to car incident in track days or DE's. Now, much more common. This is NOT limited to "racing."

This is a problem, whether you guys want to explain it away. Or not.

Veloce Raptor

Peter makes a very good point.

And Scott...chill. Geez.