nuvolari612

Porsche burn rate is obviously too high to produce one model - but the 918 trickles down to other models unlike Mclaren and Ferrari - yet somehow Ferrari and Mclaren make money and build less units.

Any proof that Porsche loses money on the 918?

The 918 will produce close to 1 billion dollars in sales - I don't think Porsche is non for profit and 40k to the dealer on a base model 918 isn't painful and the dealer gains hard to get allocations.

ipse dixit

You realize that McLaren turned a profit for the first time in 2013, right?

And Ferrari is just a completely different business model from most car makers. Heck, they make $100M annually just from licensing the Ferrari name.

No, I have no proof the 918 is a loss leader for Porsche as their financials are not broken down to that granular level, and even if it were the 918 numbers would be included for fiscal year 2014, which won't be out for a while.

That said, 918 sales would total $1B if all 918 allocations were actually sold. As of today, there are "more than 500" slots unspoken for - quoting what the dealer said to me today.

Regardless of whether the 918 is/is not a profit source, I find this statistic the most curious.

nuvolari612

Mclaren built a brand new factory to produce three models.

Ferrari had their best year ever and produces only sold units - trinkets are a big deal but Porsche also has a strong financial status.

Porscche - that number seems really low.

CarMaven

Been following this thread for a while with bemusement, and finally decided to respond (albeit reluctantly). Nonetheless, here are a couple of questions, tidbits and food for thought.

1) Why the fascination with Porsche sales and profitability in this endeavor?
What do you have against the vehicle?

2) McLaren wanted to sell 500 P1, and couldn't, so reduced the to 375. Are you aware of that? By your logic, they're a failure as well. But [after all] who really cares?

3) Porsche has consistently said they've sold 2/3, 3/4 of their 918's. Why not believe that/them, and continue to quote some dealer? He's only one person. Do you have any other sources that are credible? I don't really follow that stuff, cause I know the 918's were long delayed (on top of committing/limiting to twice as many cars as the other two). So the idea of deposits, purchases and deliveries was always going to be fluid, nebulous, and a long process till production really ramps up.

Either way, Porsche would have sold more cars than both McLaren and Ferrari by your number (475-500). So why the constant negativity (we'll all get the numbers soon enough). If anything, it may make current and prospective buyers happy if they did fall short. And I'm sure if Porsche sold out of 918 instantly, some would complain about that (depreciation, flooding the market, etc.). You can't win sometimes.

4) Regarding profitability: The 918 is a completely different business model than either of those two cars. The LaFe and P1 are essentially parts bin measures, exercises. The 918 is a white sheet, ground up model, employing exotic materials, new methods of construction, top shelf engineering and divergent goals (great economy, speed, luxury, handling, acceleration, build quality/finishing, etc., in one vehicle).

The calibration of the three motors, multiple transmissions, novel/new braking system and computer software alone would have left most R & D departments for dead, mind you blow out their budgets.

Porsche should be applauded for this, once again forwarding the development of the automobile and race car. However, "It don't come cheap".

Years ago, it was reported that Porsche lost $250,000 for every $250,000 959. Ever since, Porsche has said it wouldn't build an expensive halo car if they were going to lose that type of money again (relatively speaking), as they did with the 959. This is why Carrera GT was limited to a plentiful 1300 units (with 1100 or so built). It was to make money, defray cost of it's technology.

McLaren and (and especially Ferrari, who's apparently not building new factories for this car) can afford to build less, cause their investment is a relative pittance compared to what each 918 cost to build. You can't compare them really. This should be clear.

The GT3 RS 4.0, is a highly coveted, small production vehicle. However, it's a parts bin exercise as well, which is why Porsche could afford to build so few in the first place. The P1 and LaFe are similar in concept, but with Hybrid drive trains. However, none of those cars are built like the 918. Just look at the 918 vs P1 (even the Weissach Package), and you can see which car the money went into. The P1's interior and graphics appears like a poorly constructed GM car by comparison (with all due respect to P1 owners). The 918's on the other hand looks like a jewel. Porsche's engine is based on the RS Spyders race car engine, and it's 608 HP at 135 kilos. The Ferrari's and McLaren's are not even close in those respects (albeit's the Ferrari's is a V12). And it goes on and on. It's obvious, if Porsche wanted to build a 'quick fix' low cost/high profit hybrid as the others, they would have. However, they're thinking 'Out Of The Box', long term, and chose not to. After all, they are Germans, and have other/multiple reasons for their decisions??

I think you get my point by now. So I'll stop here.

CarMaven

PS/Lastly: The 918, P1's and LaFe's are now being driven, seen on the streets, and tested by magazines while this is all being written.

I would be more interested in how the three cars perform (and their actual real world specs), than some internal mumbo jumbo sales number, when we know the 918's has already sold more than either of the two "competitors" to begin with (if you wanna go there)......Strange.

So far the 918 has tested very well, consistently, and more are to come with Autocar, Car and Driver on the horizon. This is more than we can say about the other two vehicles currently with their scant testing. The P1 had one instrumented test with Autocar, which was very good on the dry track, and way behind in high speed acceleration runs (to McLaren numbers), and separate wet track test. The P1 also weighs more than McLaren said as well (at near, well above 1500 Kilos). Hopefully we'll get some data testing with the LaFerarri, and more with the P1.

This should be the fun, exciting part regarding our interest (as mags and owners receive, drive, test the cars). Not some nebulous, boardroom sales numbers.

Note: The Motor Trend P1 test was not a proper test. It was just a quickie. Hopefully, that'll come.

ipse dixit

I got nothing against the 918. In fact, I'm on record here (on a different thread I think) as saying I think the 918 is the best looking of the bunch, with a far better interior than the P1.

I've never really understood the differences between the three hybrid drivetrain technologies so thank you for the information.

Regarding profitability, it's just another topic to talk about like someone's widow suing Porsche because their husband was driving too fast ...

CarMaven

Oh OK.

I could go into more detail (of the how and why). But I won't. Lol. Too much (I.e.: the battery packaging/COG/Weight Distribution. And how the 918's 4WS, 4WD, Torque Vectoring, 940+ ft lbs Torque, bespoke Tires, and Active Aero Package, etc., all contribute to it's great handling--belying it's weight, with great acceleration, high speed and economy.

Let's say that the 918 is just fabulously engineered and constructed vehicle from numerous vantage points.

It's really a totally different (while simultaneously very similar of course) animal in comparison to the other two vehicles. That's why Porsche has to build more to begin with (along with the eventual trickle down effect toward their other vehicles, which had already started with the current 911 Turbo, GT3 4W Steering, which Porsche says came from the 918 program).

Agreed, the P1 interior and graphics are not much to write home about. And as I stated earlier, you can't really compare the profitability (and sales targets, #'s) of these vehicles so directly and emphatically, as they're entirely different design, manufacturing, engineering models and goals.

Saying all that: McLaren and Ferrari promoted well, maybe over sold the specs of their vehicles before hand (we'll see with LaFe); promoting them as lightweight, more performance, track vehicles to the"Flat Earth Enthusiast crowd. For whatever reason (probably cause in traditional Porsche fashion they were very conservative and progressive in their numbers, goals, and in updating them), many of the inattentive, aforementioned "Flat Earthers" wanted to believe that Porsche was creating some largely ECO/Green car laggard, that would lap the back, flagging far behind the other two vehicles in the spirit of environmental friendliness. So even now, there are some who don't understand the 918, who criticize it, or compare it in the wrong fashion to the other two vehicles due to this initial ECO/Greenie, over weight, pure GT Car notion, which has already proven woefully inaccurate and off base. Continued weighing, and instrumented testing of all three vehicles is always welcomed.

workhurts

Interesting read as the chances of me ever buying a $1M car are sub 5% so it's a whole other world to see some of these comments. The subject at hand was the negotiation though and although being armed with some facts has some benefits it's not really going to do much for the negotiation.

You aren't going to 'convince' the dealer to do anything.

Is your deposit refundable? If so, as others have mentioned, try to play one dealer off another or just plain tell them you are having second thoughts and are leaning towards the competition. It doesn't really take nerves or facts to have that discussion with the dealer ... people bluff all the time. What are they going to do? Say no. Kick you off the list? They aren't all spoken for. If the deposit is refundable all negotiation avenues or open to you. If it isn't refundable then there isn't much of a conversation to be had.

As to my point of interest with the 918 aside from the scale model car I have of it, I need a valid acid green paint code so I can do my C2 calipers that color

Whoopsy

McLaren produced around 3500 12C, pretty much half in 2012 and half in 2013. Their profit should be roughly around the same, yet in 2013 they claimed to have 4x the profit. What's the difference? The P1.

Assuming McLaren booked all 375 P1 on their bottom line, which is rumoured to be what they did. Roughly by the numbers, those extra 375 cars accounted for 3x the normal profit they made from selling ~1700 cars. Roughly 13.5x more profit per car. And the P1 only goes for roughly 3.5x the price of a 12C.

If McLaren didn't book all 375 for 2013, the multiplier is even greater.

The number shows how relatively 'cheap' a P1 can be produced, and is it worth the million+ price tag?

CarMaven

Whooo. Whoopsy. Be careful now.

You can't actually demonstrate (or rationally surmise) how the P1 was essentially a low to mid R & D, parts bin exercise now, can you? Lol

Of course, this is with all due respect to the vehicle and it's purchasers, whether Whoopsy hit the Nail On The Head or not.

Whoopsy

I am a numbers guys, and the numbers are there and by nature I crunched them haha.

The speculation market for the 918 is dead atm, it is not sold out, so people that buys them buys it for what it is.

P1 is sold out, and there are roughly 100 people world wide on the wait list, how many of the initial 375 orders are from speculators? Same can be said of the LaFerrari, but Ferrari has a proven track record of their top cars appreciating, while McLaren only has the one and only F1.

In selling out the P1, McLaren hit their goal of bolstering their bottomline and gather much needed capital for their coming projects, in turn let them make better cars.

For the buyers, the story have yet to be written on whether the market will value the car more because of the performance or will the origin of the car hold it back in its future value. Short term the trend will be going up, but the real test is the long term one.

ipse dixit

Here are some interesting numbers comparing the P1, LaFerrari, and the 918 from Top Gear:

Read more here: http://www.topgear.com/uk/photos/laf...918-2014-05-02

CarMaven

Thanks

However, many of those manufacturer claims (particularly with the P1, as we're still waiting for instrumented test with LaFerrari) have proven a bit optimistic, wrong or off base. The 918, has usually met, been very close to or exceeded their own claims.

The McLaren, for examples weighs near or over 1500 kilos, and did 0-186 mph (in it's only real instrumented test, by Autocar) in 21+ secs. That was 4-5 secs off of McLaren's 16.5 sec claim, as an example. The McLaren's VMAX may be lower as well, where we've only seen it up 209 mph (still very fast) in the real world with owners.

Of course, further testing needs to be done, to see if this is a real trend (though they're some rumblings, McLaren may pull the plug on future extensive magazine testing). We'll see? I sure hope not.

There appears to be scant instrumented data on the LaFerrari, if anything.

Stay tuned.

ipse dixit

Does anyone know the thinking behind making the 918 on an AWD platform?

nuvolari612

Yes they wanted a porker

C'mon guys I have heard it all on the Mclaren forum - will admit when Porsche gets serious they are capable of amazing results.

To be fair they are all extremely wonderful cars and one vs the other is over on a financial level is over the top.

But for 1600 owners of these three models - it's a pipe dream. On the other hand very cool the 918 and P1 owners share their experiences.

Ok that should liven things up - perhaps a mod can move some of the posts to a new thread as I should have only posted twice in this thread.