First stab at a CGT pricing guide
08-16-2013, 09:26 PM
#46
Climbing prices? Well, I think the step up as the US economy allowed well healed types to step out of the 2008 crash, has become a flat line, or at least a channel around $300-350K. No matter if some dealers would advertise at higher numbers and lure in the "easy come, easy go" suckers. Some zero mile bubble wrap cars will surely escalate, but otherwise, it's a buyer's market.
The car is an insurance problem, there's no replacement tubs, it's hard to justify the cost on any terms other than emotional appeal. It's hard to drive on the road, it's hard to back out of a parking spot. It's hard to drive enthusiastically on a back road, it's hard to drive a lap at a race track and enjoy it. It's a super luxury indulgence. The same dollars gets a 740hp F12 with lease and high residuals that can be driven quietly in traffic, blast through the scenery or lance through laps at Laguna Seca.
Buyers are few and there's always cars for sale. Eventually, eventually, attrition will take its toll. Cars will fall into permanent "collection" storage or be destroyed by one means or another, and pure scarcity and its place in the history of Porsche will assure it of a mantelpiece placement.
I think the prudent advice is caveat emptor and pick a very good example with zero intent of ever reselling. Buy privately from an original or second owner, not from a dealer or broker, not a car that's been around the traps. To my eye, it's one of the few non-911 cars I'd ever choose to own, money no object, but its 996 era does not appeal to modern buyers and its "engine out" maintenance and service are the kind of "you've got to be kidding" operating costs that only the high end Ferrari drivers can stomach.
If you can be convinced this will be a $1M car in a decade or two, there's no explaining why it's still readily available 20% below original MSRP and it's a 10 year old car with no racing pedigree, no provenance and no suggestion of investment grade potential beyond its somewhat limited production numbers.
Okay, so 20 years from now, some buyers today might not have died of old age and natural causes, but the few remaining with not be worried about this kind of frivolous luxury indulgence written into their will as some marvelous investment for others to cash in and fritter the money away on champagne and liposuction.
Buy it today. Sell your wife, sell your mistress, buy it today. Drive it today. Drive it tomorrow. Be someone complaining about the high cost of the 100,000 mile service on the Carrera GT! But for Pete's sake, for mercy, do not buy it because the price is perceived or touted as high, or low, or going higher or lower.
The car is an insurance problem, there's no replacement tubs, it's hard to justify the cost on any terms other than emotional appeal. It's hard to drive on the road, it's hard to back out of a parking spot. It's hard to drive enthusiastically on a back road, it's hard to drive a lap at a race track and enjoy it. It's a super luxury indulgence. The same dollars gets a 740hp F12 with lease and high residuals that can be driven quietly in traffic, blast through the scenery or lance through laps at Laguna Seca.
Buyers are few and there's always cars for sale. Eventually, eventually, attrition will take its toll. Cars will fall into permanent "collection" storage or be destroyed by one means or another, and pure scarcity and its place in the history of Porsche will assure it of a mantelpiece placement.
I think the prudent advice is caveat emptor and pick a very good example with zero intent of ever reselling. Buy privately from an original or second owner, not from a dealer or broker, not a car that's been around the traps. To my eye, it's one of the few non-911 cars I'd ever choose to own, money no object, but its 996 era does not appeal to modern buyers and its "engine out" maintenance and service are the kind of "you've got to be kidding" operating costs that only the high end Ferrari drivers can stomach.
If you can be convinced this will be a $1M car in a decade or two, there's no explaining why it's still readily available 20% below original MSRP and it's a 10 year old car with no racing pedigree, no provenance and no suggestion of investment grade potential beyond its somewhat limited production numbers.
Okay, so 20 years from now, some buyers today might not have died of old age and natural causes, but the few remaining with not be worried about this kind of frivolous luxury indulgence written into their will as some marvelous investment for others to cash in and fritter the money away on champagne and liposuction.
Buy it today. Sell your wife, sell your mistress, buy it today. Drive it today. Drive it tomorrow. Be someone complaining about the high cost of the 100,000 mile service on the Carrera GT! But for Pete's sake, for mercy, do not buy it because the price is perceived or touted as high, or low, or going higher or lower.
08-17-2013, 02:43 AM
#47
Whether the car goes up or down in value is anyone's best guess. Recent trends speak for themselves. I for one didn't buy the car for an investment, but you raise a few points that I disagree with.
It's an insurance problem. No, not at all.
It's hard to drive on the road. Maybe the first time out.
It's hard to back out. Not any harder than my Ferrari.
It's hard to drive enthusiastically on back roads. Haha! You must be kidding?
It's hard to drive a lap at a race track and enjoy. Nope
The comparison with the F12 and residual value. Have you noticed what 9 year old front engine V12 Ferraris go for these days? Quite a bit less than the 9 yr old CGT.
I guess we all have our own opinions.
It's an insurance problem. No, not at all.
It's hard to drive on the road. Maybe the first time out.
It's hard to back out. Not any harder than my Ferrari.
It's hard to drive enthusiastically on back roads. Haha! You must be kidding?
It's hard to drive a lap at a race track and enjoy. Nope
The comparison with the F12 and residual value. Have you noticed what 9 year old front engine V12 Ferraris go for these days? Quite a bit less than the 9 yr old CGT.
I guess we all have our own opinions.
08-17-2013, 03:05 AM
#48
Whether the car goes up or down in value is anyone's best guess. Recent trends speak for themselves. I for one didn't buy the car for an investment, but you raise a few points that I disagree with.
It's an insurance problem. No, not at all.
It's hard to drive on the road. Maybe the first time out.
It's hard to back out. Not any harder than my Ferrari.
It's hard to drive enthusiastically on back roads. Haha! You must be kidding?
It's hard to drive a lap at a race track and enjoy. Nope
The comparison with the F12 and residual value. Have you noticed what 9 year old front engine V12 Ferraris go for these days? Quite a bit less than the 9 yr old CGT.
I guess we all have our own opinions.
It's an insurance problem. No, not at all.
It's hard to drive on the road. Maybe the first time out.
It's hard to back out. Not any harder than my Ferrari.
It's hard to drive enthusiastically on back roads. Haha! You must be kidding?
It's hard to drive a lap at a race track and enjoy. Nope
The comparison with the F12 and residual value. Have you noticed what 9 year old front engine V12 Ferraris go for these days? Quite a bit less than the 9 yr old CGT.
I guess we all have our own opinions.
In any case, you've not read my post.
08-17-2013, 06:51 AM
#49
Racer
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Carrera GT, I think E-man did read your post, but was just noting some particular factual differences in his opinion -- and I am not trying to defend the CGT as an owner or a diehard -- nor I am saying you are trying to attack it -- but lets address those factual points of debate:
1) Insurance.
Okay, with a CHF2,000 deductible, mine costs about CHF750 a month (yes, I thought this was very reasonable). My parking is CHF250 a month (in a very secure lot beneath the major Ferrari dealer in town who loves my car, btw). Total per month: CHF1,000 or roughly $950. I do think they would want a bit more if I were a bomb disposal expert (but I love hyperbole!).
2) Is it really hard to drive on the road?
I agree it is hard to drive in cities -- like almost any hardcore supercar (see Top Gear when they were in Paris or Rome with all sorts of different supercars). Jeremy Clarkson compared the experience to looking "out of a telephone booth". The large breadth of the car also becomes an immediate issue to contend with -- particularly in smaller medieval towns. Crucially with regard to killer road surfaces (bad potholes, etc.), I installed a lift system which I always engage (and it automatically drops the car back down at 80km/hr). Second, go reasonably slow, be alert and don't panic if you take a bit of time getting off the line (most drivers are just enjoying the sight of the car). In Switzerland, the yellow light goes on before the green, so thats quite helpful.
I have noticed that it has gotten easier and easier -- particularly with a mini iPad hooked up to your car stereo with "iMaps" on if you are in a foreign city. It just tells you when to turn, what's coming up, etc., etc. Its brilliant. You listen to your favourite tunes and it interrupts in an extremely thoughtful and timely manner. This removes much of the stress of having to look for signs, etc (in foreign languages, unfamiliar territory, etc.).
The other place that it is difficult is in very, very narrow winding roads with hatchback crackpots, "badass" scooters and crazy buses constantly causing some dangerous situations. Again, this is partially due to the width of the CGT and the cost/hassle of repairing it. Experienced this on tiny roads to the west of St. Tropez (known to be treacherous for anyone, btw).
Otherwise, simply put, its a dream! For example, come down off the freeway to St. Tropez and you cruise through that reasonably sized road with a speed and agility that makes you feel like a race car champion (see "the emotional self-indulgence" part below).
3) Its hard to back out.
Absolutely. However, the CGT is easier to back out than an Aventador (which I don't own) and probably the same as many other super cars (can't speak for all of them). Obviously, most ordinary cars are easier (you are higher up, the car is smaller and you don't care as much if you make a mistake). You do get much more use to after a while, so it no longer intimidates me like before. I just plan it out in my head and take it easy as I am doing so.
4) Its hard to drive enthusiastically on back roads.
In my experience, as long as the road is wide enough (2 lanes) or not too crowded, its a blast. But don't take my word for it, read the EVO September magazine or see the many videos of people riding the car very "enthusiastically" on the such roads. Okay, they are also probably very experienced drivers.
5) Its hard to drive a lap at a race track and enjoy.
Well, here I am ignorant with regard to the CGT on the track (just haven't don it yet), but boy-oh-boy, am I looking forward to it (but am going to take it slowly to improve my own skills)! So I can understand your point about probably having to be a very good driver to appreciate the full CGT on the track (but see below). At the same time, I have driven other cars around the track and was not super impressed with the feeling of them (except for the earlier Lambos). I don't want to start knocking other supercars (and admire all of them in their own way), but many are far too "comfy" to really get an open wheel racetrack car feeling (different kettle of fish). Sure, you can put them at their edge and get a sense of fear and danger, but they are much happier not being stressed out this way. I swear that the way the CGT feels to me, it will somehow figure out how to infiltrate my iMaps pretty soon and direct me to a track -- the same way a dog likes to go for a good run. Hold on boy, we'll be there soon enough.
6) Comparison with the depreciation of other super cars.
Well, everything you have said here about the driving experience of the CGT, I believe you can say the same about the McLaren F1? (Except you have got to love the centre seat). Recent Ferraris -- except for the highly limited Enzo -- have depreciated very significantly. So I think as a whole, the CGT has held up pretty well (and all asset prices have climbed significantly since 2008). If they had made 300 of them, I think the car would have appreciated far more already; fortunately, the made almost 1,300 of them so that people who really want this racing car, can still afford one. Like me...
7) "Does it appeal to people with the means and emotional self-indulgence, yes, its arguably the car of cars in living memory."
Well, lets first address the "difficulty" of the driving the CGT; it has a learning curve that is steeper and much higher ended than many other supercars. That comes with being a race car (in street clothing). And thats part of what gives me the insane pleasure I find in the car: every-time I take it out, I feel like it is adventure. The fact that I will go and train hard to really be able to drive the car on the track (and I am even going to do some ice driving in other cars); the fact I will be able to progress my driving skills to a whole different level (and enjoy the hell out of it along the way) thereby never getting bored of my CGT; and the fact that when I look at in a garage surrounded by many other supercars -- with many special editions -- I can't help but admire the CGT's own unique beauty which makes my heart sing: these are all part of what makes the CGT that special (or, as you nicely put it, "the car of cars in living memory").
Moreover, I would agree with your overall conclusion that I wouldn't buy the CGT purely for investment purposes (I would say the same thing about art or any other "collectible" item, btw). In fact, I would hope that future buyers of the car will liberate them from their air conditioned hibernation and drive them! Disagree totally about not buying them from a dealer -- but we can deal with that at another point; my dealer's constant experience in selling CGTs (and other high end cars) has been a huge benefit to me for which I would gladly pay a premium for (and it is still ongoing -- I still talk to my guy all the time).
But heres the bottom line: why else would one buy a supercar if it wasn't for "emotional self-indulgence"? I think a simpler word is "pleasure". Yes, I did buy the CGT because it goes me enormous "pleasure"; I pine to jump in it every moment as it sits in a garage. Coming back from a drive, it takes a good half-hour to calm the spirits. Perhaps you didn't mean the expression to be pejorative? But I certainly don't go around with any guilt because I own this car (quite the opposite, I am very proud of it without being smug) -- and people on the road or walking by also seem to take a great deal of pleasure just looking at it.
I mean no one is debating whether the CGT is good to go grocery shopping with (okay, not recommended with the roof down) -- but is there any supercar that is?
8) One last question: its a bit of a personal one, so please just ignore it if you find it inappropriate (and I apologise if you find as such). Given the moniker "Carrera GT" (no doubt a highly desired moniker on this site!), do you own one? Not that your opinions are just as valid if you don't (and very well written at that). Perhaps you are a big 911 (GT3 it seems?) fan which is certainly a much more practical car... but it also does not compare to the CGT in one criticism that you stated above: "just getting in and out in nice clothes or a passenger in dress and heels". Okay, find me one "hot" woman on Planet Earth that wouldn't prefer climbing out of a CGT? Or any woman for that matter...
But, yes, you do have one other important point: "I mean that task and all similar issues of driving, parking, leaving unattended." And thats all true. But I found a silver lining here too: most places I go to are happy to let me park right in front (admittedly a practice which I didn't particularly appreciate when I saw other car owners do it in Knightsbridge; now, its pretty second nature). In bigger parking lots, I park diagonally and take two places; rather than feel jealous, I usually find that people perfectly understand it and go about admiring the car... I think its subtle nature helps in this regard.
Cheers,
Steve
1) Insurance.
Okay, with a CHF2,000 deductible, mine costs about CHF750 a month (yes, I thought this was very reasonable). My parking is CHF250 a month (in a very secure lot beneath the major Ferrari dealer in town who loves my car, btw). Total per month: CHF1,000 or roughly $950. I do think they would want a bit more if I were a bomb disposal expert (but I love hyperbole!).
2) Is it really hard to drive on the road?
I agree it is hard to drive in cities -- like almost any hardcore supercar (see Top Gear when they were in Paris or Rome with all sorts of different supercars). Jeremy Clarkson compared the experience to looking "out of a telephone booth". The large breadth of the car also becomes an immediate issue to contend with -- particularly in smaller medieval towns. Crucially with regard to killer road surfaces (bad potholes, etc.), I installed a lift system which I always engage (and it automatically drops the car back down at 80km/hr). Second, go reasonably slow, be alert and don't panic if you take a bit of time getting off the line (most drivers are just enjoying the sight of the car). In Switzerland, the yellow light goes on before the green, so thats quite helpful.
I have noticed that it has gotten easier and easier -- particularly with a mini iPad hooked up to your car stereo with "iMaps" on if you are in a foreign city. It just tells you when to turn, what's coming up, etc., etc. Its brilliant. You listen to your favourite tunes and it interrupts in an extremely thoughtful and timely manner. This removes much of the stress of having to look for signs, etc (in foreign languages, unfamiliar territory, etc.).
The other place that it is difficult is in very, very narrow winding roads with hatchback crackpots, "badass" scooters and crazy buses constantly causing some dangerous situations. Again, this is partially due to the width of the CGT and the cost/hassle of repairing it. Experienced this on tiny roads to the west of St. Tropez (known to be treacherous for anyone, btw).
Otherwise, simply put, its a dream! For example, come down off the freeway to St. Tropez and you cruise through that reasonably sized road with a speed and agility that makes you feel like a race car champion (see "the emotional self-indulgence" part below).
3) Its hard to back out.
Absolutely. However, the CGT is easier to back out than an Aventador (which I don't own) and probably the same as many other super cars (can't speak for all of them). Obviously, most ordinary cars are easier (you are higher up, the car is smaller and you don't care as much if you make a mistake). You do get much more use to after a while, so it no longer intimidates me like before. I just plan it out in my head and take it easy as I am doing so.
4) Its hard to drive enthusiastically on back roads.
In my experience, as long as the road is wide enough (2 lanes) or not too crowded, its a blast. But don't take my word for it, read the EVO September magazine or see the many videos of people riding the car very "enthusiastically" on the such roads. Okay, they are also probably very experienced drivers.
5) Its hard to drive a lap at a race track and enjoy.
Well, here I am ignorant with regard to the CGT on the track (just haven't don it yet), but boy-oh-boy, am I looking forward to it (but am going to take it slowly to improve my own skills)! So I can understand your point about probably having to be a very good driver to appreciate the full CGT on the track (but see below). At the same time, I have driven other cars around the track and was not super impressed with the feeling of them (except for the earlier Lambos). I don't want to start knocking other supercars (and admire all of them in their own way), but many are far too "comfy" to really get an open wheel racetrack car feeling (different kettle of fish). Sure, you can put them at their edge and get a sense of fear and danger, but they are much happier not being stressed out this way. I swear that the way the CGT feels to me, it will somehow figure out how to infiltrate my iMaps pretty soon and direct me to a track -- the same way a dog likes to go for a good run. Hold on boy, we'll be there soon enough.
6) Comparison with the depreciation of other super cars.
Well, everything you have said here about the driving experience of the CGT, I believe you can say the same about the McLaren F1? (Except you have got to love the centre seat). Recent Ferraris -- except for the highly limited Enzo -- have depreciated very significantly. So I think as a whole, the CGT has held up pretty well (and all asset prices have climbed significantly since 2008). If they had made 300 of them, I think the car would have appreciated far more already; fortunately, the made almost 1,300 of them so that people who really want this racing car, can still afford one. Like me...
7) "Does it appeal to people with the means and emotional self-indulgence, yes, its arguably the car of cars in living memory."
Well, lets first address the "difficulty" of the driving the CGT; it has a learning curve that is steeper and much higher ended than many other supercars. That comes with being a race car (in street clothing). And thats part of what gives me the insane pleasure I find in the car: every-time I take it out, I feel like it is adventure. The fact that I will go and train hard to really be able to drive the car on the track (and I am even going to do some ice driving in other cars); the fact I will be able to progress my driving skills to a whole different level (and enjoy the hell out of it along the way) thereby never getting bored of my CGT; and the fact that when I look at in a garage surrounded by many other supercars -- with many special editions -- I can't help but admire the CGT's own unique beauty which makes my heart sing: these are all part of what makes the CGT that special (or, as you nicely put it, "the car of cars in living memory").
Moreover, I would agree with your overall conclusion that I wouldn't buy the CGT purely for investment purposes (I would say the same thing about art or any other "collectible" item, btw). In fact, I would hope that future buyers of the car will liberate them from their air conditioned hibernation and drive them! Disagree totally about not buying them from a dealer -- but we can deal with that at another point; my dealer's constant experience in selling CGTs (and other high end cars) has been a huge benefit to me for which I would gladly pay a premium for (and it is still ongoing -- I still talk to my guy all the time).
But heres the bottom line: why else would one buy a supercar if it wasn't for "emotional self-indulgence"? I think a simpler word is "pleasure". Yes, I did buy the CGT because it goes me enormous "pleasure"; I pine to jump in it every moment as it sits in a garage. Coming back from a drive, it takes a good half-hour to calm the spirits. Perhaps you didn't mean the expression to be pejorative? But I certainly don't go around with any guilt because I own this car (quite the opposite, I am very proud of it without being smug) -- and people on the road or walking by also seem to take a great deal of pleasure just looking at it.
I mean no one is debating whether the CGT is good to go grocery shopping with (okay, not recommended with the roof down) -- but is there any supercar that is?
8) One last question: its a bit of a personal one, so please just ignore it if you find it inappropriate (and I apologise if you find as such). Given the moniker "Carrera GT" (no doubt a highly desired moniker on this site!), do you own one? Not that your opinions are just as valid if you don't (and very well written at that). Perhaps you are a big 911 (GT3 it seems?) fan which is certainly a much more practical car... but it also does not compare to the CGT in one criticism that you stated above: "just getting in and out in nice clothes or a passenger in dress and heels". Okay, find me one "hot" woman on Planet Earth that wouldn't prefer climbing out of a CGT? Or any woman for that matter...
But, yes, you do have one other important point: "I mean that task and all similar issues of driving, parking, leaving unattended." And thats all true. But I found a silver lining here too: most places I go to are happy to let me park right in front (admittedly a practice which I didn't particularly appreciate when I saw other car owners do it in Knightsbridge; now, its pretty second nature). In bigger parking lots, I park diagonally and take two places; rather than feel jealous, I usually find that people perfectly understand it and go about admiring the car... I think its subtle nature helps in this regard.
Cheers,
Steve
08-18-2013, 11:26 AM
#51
Instructor
Climbing prices? Well, I think the step up as the US economy allowed well healed types to step out of the 2008 crash, has become a flat line, or at least a channel around $300-350K. No matter if some dealers would advertise at higher numbers and lure in the "easy come, easy go" suckers. Some zero mile bubble wrap cars will surely escalate, but otherwise, it's a buyer's market.
The car is an insurance problem, there's no replacement tubs, it's hard to justify the cost on any terms other than emotional appeal. It's hard to drive on the road, it's hard to back out of a parking spot. It's hard to drive enthusiastically on a back road, it's hard to drive a lap at a race track and enjoy it. It's a super luxury indulgence. The same dollars gets a 740hp F12 with lease and high residuals that can be driven quietly in traffic, blast through the scenery or lance through laps at Laguna Seca.
Buyers are few and there's always cars for sale. Eventually, eventually, attrition will take its toll. Cars will fall into permanent "collection" storage or be destroyed by one means or another, and pure scarcity and its place in the history of Porsche will assure it of a mantelpiece placement.
I think the prudent advice is caveat emptor and pick a very good example with zero intent of ever reselling. Buy privately from an original or second owner, not from a dealer or broker, not a car that's been around the traps. To my eye, it's one of the few non-911 cars I'd ever choose to own, money no object, but its 996 era does not appeal to modern buyers and its "engine out" maintenance and service are the kind of "you've got to be kidding" operating costs that only the high end Ferrari drivers can stomach.
If you can be convinced this will be a $1M car in a decade or two, there's no explaining why it's still readily available 20% below original MSRP and it's a 10 year old car with no racing pedigree, no provenance and no suggestion of investment grade potential beyond its somewhat limited production numbers.
Okay, so 20 years from now, some buyers today might not have died of old age and natural causes, but the few remaining with not be worried about this kind of frivolous luxury indulgence written into their will as some marvelous investment for others to cash in and fritter the money away on champagne and liposuction.
Buy it today. Sell your wife, sell your mistress, buy it today. Drive it today. Drive it tomorrow. Be someone complaining about the high cost of the 100,000 mile service on the Carrera GT! But for Pete's sake, for mercy, do not buy it because the price is perceived or touted as high, or low, or going higher or lower.
The car is an insurance problem, there's no replacement tubs, it's hard to justify the cost on any terms other than emotional appeal. It's hard to drive on the road, it's hard to back out of a parking spot. It's hard to drive enthusiastically on a back road, it's hard to drive a lap at a race track and enjoy it. It's a super luxury indulgence. The same dollars gets a 740hp F12 with lease and high residuals that can be driven quietly in traffic, blast through the scenery or lance through laps at Laguna Seca.
Buyers are few and there's always cars for sale. Eventually, eventually, attrition will take its toll. Cars will fall into permanent "collection" storage or be destroyed by one means or another, and pure scarcity and its place in the history of Porsche will assure it of a mantelpiece placement.
I think the prudent advice is caveat emptor and pick a very good example with zero intent of ever reselling. Buy privately from an original or second owner, not from a dealer or broker, not a car that's been around the traps. To my eye, it's one of the few non-911 cars I'd ever choose to own, money no object, but its 996 era does not appeal to modern buyers and its "engine out" maintenance and service are the kind of "you've got to be kidding" operating costs that only the high end Ferrari drivers can stomach.
If you can be convinced this will be a $1M car in a decade or two, there's no explaining why it's still readily available 20% below original MSRP and it's a 10 year old car with no racing pedigree, no provenance and no suggestion of investment grade potential beyond its somewhat limited production numbers.
Okay, so 20 years from now, some buyers today might not have died of old age and natural causes, but the few remaining with not be worried about this kind of frivolous luxury indulgence written into their will as some marvelous investment for others to cash in and fritter the money away on champagne and liposuction.
Buy it today. Sell your wife, sell your mistress, buy it today. Drive it today. Drive it tomorrow. Be someone complaining about the high cost of the 100,000 mile service on the Carrera GT! But for Pete's sake, for mercy, do not buy it because the price is perceived or touted as high, or low, or going higher or lower.
I could not DISAGREE more with this posting. Obviously NOT an owner.
I have State Farm insurance and it is listed as a low use vehicle and I pay $1200 USD every six months.
The car is a blast to drive on sparsely populated backroads and I was just out early this morning and the pack of Italian superbikes are still grinning about that drive with me as the lead.
On the racetrack there is very little that can stay near it and are as much fun to drive.
I could not care less about resale/ residuals or such. Leave that for the posers/investors. I bought mine last year when it had only 600 mils and it now has 4500.
08-18-2013, 11:52 AM
#52
I could not DISAGREE more with this posting. Obviously NOT an owner.
I have State Farm insurance and it is listed as a low use vehicle and I pay $1200 USD every six months.
The car is a blast to drive on sparsely populated backroads and I was just out early this morning and the pack of Italian superbikes are still grinning about that drive with me as the lead.
On the racetrack there is very little that can stay near it and are as much fun to drive.
I could not care less about resale/ residuals or such. Leave that for the posers/investors. I bought mine last year when it had only 600 mils and it now has 4500.
I have State Farm insurance and it is listed as a low use vehicle and I pay $1200 USD every six months.
The car is a blast to drive on sparsely populated backroads and I was just out early this morning and the pack of Italian superbikes are still grinning about that drive with me as the lead.
On the racetrack there is very little that can stay near it and are as much fun to drive.
I could not care less about resale/ residuals or such. Leave that for the posers/investors. I bought mine last year when it had only 600 mils and it now has 4500.
08-19-2013, 02:01 AM
#53
You have one, so your perspective overshadows mine, but here's a thing or two: insurance, I've asked AllState, they would rather I took up bomb disposal as a pastime; hard to drive, yes, anyone, with concerted effort and practice, but it's not a "get in and drive" car; by backing out of a parking spot, I mean that task and all similar issues of driving, parking, leaving unattended, driveways, just getting in and out in nice clothes or a passenger in dress and heels; enthusiastic "press on" driving, let's see if you can keep up with my 911 in your Carrera GT; if you're okay driving a serious lap on track in a Carrera GT, you're a pro, or far above average amateur; as for F cars, my point was leases and residuals, not just market prices and the F12 is set to be free and clear of the 2008 crash and Ferrari's failure to maintain its grip on the secondary market. These are all very real world matters which come into the purchases of these not-yet investment grade cars in the low six figures. Does it acquit itself as a car to be driven, no, it simply does not. Does it appeal to people with the means and emotional self-indulgence, yes, it's arguably the car of cars in living memory.
In any case, you've not read my post.
In any case, you've not read my post.
As an owner let me state some Facts about the car. First off you should fire your insurance man. Im insured through state farm and my premium is under 1k for 6 months (with a 1k deductible).
The second biggest misguided comment you make is how it's hard to drive the car enthusiastically on back roads and next you say it's not a car that acquits itself to be driven. I could not disagree more. I bought my car last year with 7k miles and it now has 13k miles. How many miles have you driven in a CGT? I also own a GT3 RS and I thought that to be the best road car I'd ever driven, until I bought the CGT. What's this about 'let's see if you can keep up with my 911 in your CGT?' what does this have anything to do with? I could care less about how fast I'm going on the street. It's all about the sheer driving experience that the car gives me. For me it's about connecting with the car. When you're in a CGT, you wear the car. Do I experience this when I drive to a restaurant or a grocery store? No way! This is not a car you want to drive around town,period. On that topic you are correct. This is a car where you plan out a destination and it's an event getting there. This spring I covered over 1,600 miles in two days. Through deserts, over mountain passes, you name I saw it. The car begs to be driven. When I finally reached where I was going I didn't want to stop. I wanted to keep going. It was the most comfortable, engaging car I'd ever driven over long distance. It's a car you want to drive on country back roads or through the mountains. When there's no traffic and you can actually enter the realm of what I call the true performance zone of the car, it's just pure driving bliss. It's no easy car to drive, so when you get it right it's so rewarding and such a joy! And that's part of what makes it so great. The difference between negotiating a corner correctly and incorrectly are huge. It's a challenge, which makes it so different than anything else out there in this price range.
08-19-2013, 07:46 AM
#54
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Never a dull day in a CGT...
Could not echo E-man's comments more ("This is a car where you plan out a destination and it's an event getting there.")
Drove down from Zug (near the German border) to Saas Fee (ski village right across from Italy) on Saturday; came back on Sunday -- about 4 hours each way. A bit of traffic going there (its a holiday weekend since Thursday was a national holiday); somewhat crowded coming back. Couldn't get enough of it! The control, the speed, the freedom, the joy...
A funny incident occurred when I took the underground mountain train on the way back: you have to drive onto this very narrow traincar with cars in a single file (cars front and back). You have about 6 inches on either side of the CGT -- so you are trapped there. I had just missed the one train and had to wait ten minutes in line for the next. The attendant came over and insisted that I put my top up -- which I didn't want to do (it's a bit of a hassle) and I explained to him that there was no need (as each car while open in the air, had a metal roof above it, so no danger of debris falling on me). I finally gave up and put the top on (in front of this long line of cars). I drove onto the next train and then ended up in a section between two cars -- so no metal roof above me. After about 20-25 minutes in the tunnel, we came out on the other side and kept going for a while. And guess what? It was absolutely pouring! I could only imagine what would have happened if I hadn't had put the top up... Trapped in my car with water gushing down on me. Thank you, attendant, thank you!!!
CGT LESSON 54: always put the top up when going onto a swiss carriage train. You never know what the weather is going to be like on the other side...
Drove down from Zug (near the German border) to Saas Fee (ski village right across from Italy) on Saturday; came back on Sunday -- about 4 hours each way. A bit of traffic going there (its a holiday weekend since Thursday was a national holiday); somewhat crowded coming back. Couldn't get enough of it! The control, the speed, the freedom, the joy...
A funny incident occurred when I took the underground mountain train on the way back: you have to drive onto this very narrow traincar with cars in a single file (cars front and back). You have about 6 inches on either side of the CGT -- so you are trapped there. I had just missed the one train and had to wait ten minutes in line for the next. The attendant came over and insisted that I put my top up -- which I didn't want to do (it's a bit of a hassle) and I explained to him that there was no need (as each car while open in the air, had a metal roof above it, so no danger of debris falling on me). I finally gave up and put the top on (in front of this long line of cars). I drove onto the next train and then ended up in a section between two cars -- so no metal roof above me. After about 20-25 minutes in the tunnel, we came out on the other side and kept going for a while. And guess what? It was absolutely pouring! I could only imagine what would have happened if I hadn't had put the top up... Trapped in my car with water gushing down on me. Thank you, attendant, thank you!!!
CGT LESSON 54: always put the top up when going onto a swiss carriage train. You never know what the weather is going to be like on the other side...
08-19-2013, 03:07 PM
#57
A serious Bat Cave for a serious car. Bravo!
Last edited by E-Man; 08-19-2013 at 05:16 PM. Reason: ...
08-20-2013, 05:36 AM
#59
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Grocery shopping with the top up or down, "Biko"? If the latter, well, then you may get some criticism for making the passenger seat inconvenient (from you know who)... Just joking "Carrera GT"!
I don't know, "Carrera GT", but I think that you would be hard pressed to find the level of enthusiasm you see on this thread for this car (could be wrong because everyone is naturally prejudiced to their own car). And, by the way, I would say that we all hugely benefit from the many contributions that you make to this site (so please don't get discouraged by this little debate). Part of the magic of any car obviously is its ability to connect emotionally with the driver (and others to an extent). I admire well engineered cars; I think the FF is a really cool technical feat (w/ Porsche engineering, btw), for example, but it will never ever begin to connect with me with the way that the CGT constantly pulls at my heart strings. I think that if you owned one (which you must desire given your moniker?), you would scratch everything except for your last sentence -- because the rest would be irrelevant. So please do get very "emotionally self-indulgent", follow your own advice and go get a CGT! It would be great to hear your commentary on it as you experience it.
There was a great 60 minutes show about the Lamborghini Countach (in the 80s, on you tube featuring Vincent Balboni) which is absolutely relevant for supercars today -- and a reviewer says in it "everybody should experience a V12 supercar before they die". Update that quote today: everybody should experience a CGT. It is utterly unforgettable.
Oh, and I would do so before the prices start going up...
I don't know, "Carrera GT", but I think that you would be hard pressed to find the level of enthusiasm you see on this thread for this car (could be wrong because everyone is naturally prejudiced to their own car). And, by the way, I would say that we all hugely benefit from the many contributions that you make to this site (so please don't get discouraged by this little debate). Part of the magic of any car obviously is its ability to connect emotionally with the driver (and others to an extent). I admire well engineered cars; I think the FF is a really cool technical feat (w/ Porsche engineering, btw), for example, but it will never ever begin to connect with me with the way that the CGT constantly pulls at my heart strings. I think that if you owned one (which you must desire given your moniker?), you would scratch everything except for your last sentence -- because the rest would be irrelevant. So please do get very "emotionally self-indulgent", follow your own advice and go get a CGT! It would be great to hear your commentary on it as you experience it.
There was a great 60 minutes show about the Lamborghini Countach (in the 80s, on you tube featuring Vincent Balboni) which is absolutely relevant for supercars today -- and a reviewer says in it "everybody should experience a V12 supercar before they die". Update that quote today: everybody should experience a CGT. It is utterly unforgettable.
Oh, and I would do so before the prices start going up...
08-30-2013, 08:41 PM
#60
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I am very interested in these cars so I started a nationwide search, created a spreadsheet of every car for sale (and those which have sold) and started doing some analysis. Yes - I have issues. Please feel free to add to this calculator as you have factual data to supply. Hoping this helps others (like me) make good buying decisions.
This probably isnt shocking but it appears the following have the biggest impact on value:
1. Mileage (far and away)
2. Year (2004 cars are worth less)
3. Maintenance history and recent clutch
4. Color (to a lesser degree)
I have about 30 cars in this database so far. If anyone is willing to PM me values for what they paid we can make this more accurate.
The best I can tell - the calculator goes like this:
-Start at $400k for a zero mile 2005 car.
-Subtract $10 for every mile
-Subtract $25k for a 2004
-If you dont have a recent clutch or excellent MNT history subtract $25k
- Rare color (anything other than silver) not sure yet
***This obviously assumes clean carfax, no paintwork etc.
I went through most every post on Rennlist and others. Found a number of documented sales all which fit the model pretty well. Some were a couple years ago and it appears prices have been pretty stable (other than 2009).
Here is an example from a year ago which is the highest mileage actual sale I could find. Its close but not perfect when miles get that high. My guess is miles start costing less as you get over 10k:
One example: 2005, silver, clutch, 19k miles sold for $225k (model says $210k)
If anyone has data to refute this model either PM me or post it up. This is just a start and I'm sure the end will be valuable to those looking for a car.
This probably isnt shocking but it appears the following have the biggest impact on value:
1. Mileage (far and away)
2. Year (2004 cars are worth less)
3. Maintenance history and recent clutch
4. Color (to a lesser degree)
I have about 30 cars in this database so far. If anyone is willing to PM me values for what they paid we can make this more accurate.
The best I can tell - the calculator goes like this:
-Start at $400k for a zero mile 2005 car.
-Subtract $10 for every mile
-Subtract $25k for a 2004
-If you dont have a recent clutch or excellent MNT history subtract $25k
- Rare color (anything other than silver) not sure yet
***This obviously assumes clean carfax, no paintwork etc.
I went through most every post on Rennlist and others. Found a number of documented sales all which fit the model pretty well. Some were a couple years ago and it appears prices have been pretty stable (other than 2009).
Here is an example from a year ago which is the highest mileage actual sale I could find. Its close but not perfect when miles get that high. My guess is miles start costing less as you get over 10k:
One example: 2005, silver, clutch, 19k miles sold for $225k (model says $210k)
If anyone has data to refute this model either PM me or post it up. This is just a start and I'm sure the end will be valuable to those looking for a car.
I think your cost per mile is too high. I was just offered 300K from my dealer that wanted to sell it to another customer.
I also feel that 25K less for a 2004 model is also excessive. I think that anyone who would pay 25K more for a 2005 over a 2004 with the exact same mileage / history would be crazy.
In the end it doesn't matter to me because I plan on keeping this car as long as I am able to drive.