First stab at a CGT pricing guide
03-01-2013, 02:56 PM
#31
Instructor
03-01-2013, 09:07 PM
#32
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Not quite as good as RS ClubSport but I'm up to 17,000 miles on my car. I agree with an earlier poster that mileage will eventually become less of an issue (as with the F1) - as long as the car has been maintained in perfect working order, mileage should not be an issue. The engine is particularly over engineered.
In the UK prices seem to have slipped a bit, perhaps closer to the US norm - but in the long run I'd expect values to firm. I know only 499 were built, and the Prancing Horse always carries a premium, but Enzos seem to go for more than double the money - and although I am biaised I'd always have the CGT. Against the Enzo, the CGT just seems to be a bargain.
Still, I hope to be fortunate enough never to have to sell what I think is, and will remain, Porsche's high water mark for road cars.
Cheers
In the UK prices seem to have slipped a bit, perhaps closer to the US norm - but in the long run I'd expect values to firm. I know only 499 were built, and the Prancing Horse always carries a premium, but Enzos seem to go for more than double the money - and although I am biaised I'd always have the CGT. Against the Enzo, the CGT just seems to be a bargain.
Still, I hope to be fortunate enough never to have to sell what I think is, and will remain, Porsche's high water mark for road cars.
Cheers
03-02-2013, 07:24 AM
#33
It's a great data point for Porsche – they should be interested to know more about your car. Surely your dealer has reported on the "life" of your car to the factory. It would be fascinating to see the service records and get candid observations from the people who've worked on the car.
I've kept wear data on the clutch since I've owned the car (it was on the original when I bought it) and it measured 28.90mm at the recent service. The clutch needs replacing at 28.00mm, and as the engine was out for the 4 year service, and I suspect it would not last another four years until the next big service, I decided to change it.
The cost was only for the (discounted) clutch as the engine was out for the service, so it made sense to do it now.
I took some time to look through the file on my car, originally a USA car number 263 which I bought from the USA in 2006, and detailed the notable expenses along the way. I've not included tyres, pads etc as I've lost count. I should add the car has completed around 40 track days/ DE days and a lot of the high consumable cost - and my obsession with the car being 100% - has attributed to this:
15 November 2006 car purchased @ 7251 miles, fresh service and full Porsche History
13678 miles, 22 November 2007, annual service Porsche Cars Reading - £2176.03
13761 miles, 11 December 2007, colour change from GT Silver to Basalt Black, Porsche Cars Reading - £9096.44
17487 miles, 13 December 2008, annual service/4 year engine out, new front raditators under goodwill, Porsche Cars Reading - £3857.68
18602 miles, 29 June 2009, rectify faulty head gasket, leaking A/C, Porsche AG and GB contrubution left a bill of £3637.86
19479 miles, 30 October 2009, annual service, Porsche Cars Reading - £2778.63 (including front radiator grills)
22401 miles,21 May 2010, replace four shock absorbers as both N/S/F and N/S/R leaking, Porsche Cars Reading - £7599.98
22599 miles, 18 October 2010, replace leaking clutch actuator, power brake pump and OS coolant radiator, Porsche Cars Reading, some goodwill leaving a bill of £3931.81 (original estimate before goodwill £9986.21), clutch checked and measured 29.25mm
23051 miles, 11 November 2010, annual service, Porsche Cars Reading - £2938.21
23182 miles, 10 March 2011, supply and fit standard suspension drop links (to run the car lower as it was fitted with +10mm drop links) - £10084.88
27148 miles, 28 April 2011, oil change, replace lower trailing arm, sundry paintwork to front grills, Porsche Cars Reading - £4087.39
28655 miles, 6 August 2011, replace front PCCB's due to wear - £8645.06
28973 miles, 13 October 2011, annual service, repair rear silencer internals, £1798.26
29899 miles, 30 October 2012, annual service/ 4 year engine out major service, replace clutch, replace headlight £14503.01
03-02-2013, 09:14 AM
#34
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I posted the service and significant other costs last year, just added the latest one. Sadly I only managed around 1000 miles last year, intend to address that in 2013. The most recent service was costly, as I had a new clutch fitted, and a new headlight due to particles of plastic inside which couldn't be removed (£3360.00).
I've kept wear data on the clutch since I've owned the car (it was on the original when I bought it) and it measured 28.90mm at the recent service. The clutch needs replacing at 28.00mm, and as the engine was out for the 4 year service, and I suspect it would not last another four years until the next big service, I decided to change it.
The cost was only for the (discounted) clutch as the engine was out for the service, so it made sense to do it now.
I took some time to look through the file on my car, originally a USA car number 263 which I bought from the USA in 2006, and detailed the notable expenses along the way. I've not included tyres, pads etc as I've lost count. I should add the car has completed around 40 track days/ DE days and a lot of the high consumable cost - and my obsession with the car being 100% - has attributed to this:
15 November 2006 car purchased @ 7251 miles, fresh service and full Porsche History
13678 miles, 22 November 2007, annual service Porsche Cars Reading - £2176.03
13761 miles, 11 December 2007, colour change from GT Silver to Basalt Black, Porsche Cars Reading - £9096.44
17487 miles, 13 December 2008, annual service/4 year engine out, new front raditators under goodwill, Porsche Cars Reading - £3857.68
18602 miles, 29 June 2009, rectify faulty head gasket, leaking A/C, Porsche AG and GB contrubution left a bill of £3637.86
19479 miles, 30 October 2009, annual service, Porsche Cars Reading - £2778.63 (including front radiator grills)
22401 miles,21 May 2010, replace four shock absorbers as both N/S/F and N/S/R leaking, Porsche Cars Reading - £7599.98
22599 miles, 18 October 2010, replace leaking clutch actuator, power brake pump and OS coolant radiator, Porsche Cars Reading, some goodwill leaving a bill of £3931.81 (original estimate before goodwill £9986.21), clutch checked and measured 29.25mm
23051 miles, 11 November 2010, annual service, Porsche Cars Reading - £2938.21
23182 miles, 10 March 2011, supply and fit standard suspension drop links (to run the car lower as it was fitted with +10mm drop links) - £10084.88
27148 miles, 28 April 2011, oil change, replace lower trailing arm, sundry paintwork to front grills, Porsche Cars Reading - £4087.39
28655 miles, 6 August 2011, replace front PCCB's due to wear - £8645.06
28973 miles, 13 October 2011, annual service, repair rear silencer internals, £1798.26
29899 miles, 30 October 2012, annual service/ 4 year engine out major service, replace clutch, replace headlight £14503.01
I've kept wear data on the clutch since I've owned the car (it was on the original when I bought it) and it measured 28.90mm at the recent service. The clutch needs replacing at 28.00mm, and as the engine was out for the 4 year service, and I suspect it would not last another four years until the next big service, I decided to change it.
The cost was only for the (discounted) clutch as the engine was out for the service, so it made sense to do it now.
I took some time to look through the file on my car, originally a USA car number 263 which I bought from the USA in 2006, and detailed the notable expenses along the way. I've not included tyres, pads etc as I've lost count. I should add the car has completed around 40 track days/ DE days and a lot of the high consumable cost - and my obsession with the car being 100% - has attributed to this:
15 November 2006 car purchased @ 7251 miles, fresh service and full Porsche History
13678 miles, 22 November 2007, annual service Porsche Cars Reading - £2176.03
13761 miles, 11 December 2007, colour change from GT Silver to Basalt Black, Porsche Cars Reading - £9096.44
17487 miles, 13 December 2008, annual service/4 year engine out, new front raditators under goodwill, Porsche Cars Reading - £3857.68
18602 miles, 29 June 2009, rectify faulty head gasket, leaking A/C, Porsche AG and GB contrubution left a bill of £3637.86
19479 miles, 30 October 2009, annual service, Porsche Cars Reading - £2778.63 (including front radiator grills)
22401 miles,21 May 2010, replace four shock absorbers as both N/S/F and N/S/R leaking, Porsche Cars Reading - £7599.98
22599 miles, 18 October 2010, replace leaking clutch actuator, power brake pump and OS coolant radiator, Porsche Cars Reading, some goodwill leaving a bill of £3931.81 (original estimate before goodwill £9986.21), clutch checked and measured 29.25mm
23051 miles, 11 November 2010, annual service, Porsche Cars Reading - £2938.21
23182 miles, 10 March 2011, supply and fit standard suspension drop links (to run the car lower as it was fitted with +10mm drop links) - £10084.88
27148 miles, 28 April 2011, oil change, replace lower trailing arm, sundry paintwork to front grills, Porsche Cars Reading - £4087.39
28655 miles, 6 August 2011, replace front PCCB's due to wear - £8645.06
28973 miles, 13 October 2011, annual service, repair rear silencer internals, £1798.26
29899 miles, 30 October 2012, annual service/ 4 year engine out major service, replace clutch, replace headlight £14503.01
03-02-2013, 01:11 PM
#35
I posted the service and significant other costs last year, just added the latest one. Sadly I only managed around 1000 miles last year, intend to address that in 2013. The most recent service was costly, as I had a new clutch fitted, and a new headlight due to particles of plastic inside which couldn't be removed (£3360.00).
I've kept wear data on the clutch since I've owned the car (it was on the original when I bought it) and it measured 28.90mm at the recent service. The clutch needs replacing at 28.00mm, and as the engine was out for the 4 year service, and I suspect it would not last another four years until the next big service, I decided to change it.
The cost was only for the (discounted) clutch as the engine was out for the service, so it made sense to do it now.
I took some time to look through the file on my car, originally a USA car number 263 which I bought from the USA in 2006, and detailed the notable expenses along the way. I've not included tyres, pads etc as I've lost count. I should add the car has completed around 40 track days/ DE days and a lot of the high consumable cost - and my obsession with the car being 100% - has attributed to this:
15 November 2006 car purchased @ 7251 miles, fresh service and full Porsche History
13678 miles, 22 November 2007, annual service Porsche Cars Reading - £2176.03
13761 miles, 11 December 2007, colour change from GT Silver to Basalt Black, Porsche Cars Reading - £9096.44
17487 miles, 13 December 2008, annual service/4 year engine out, new front raditators under goodwill, Porsche Cars Reading - £3857.68
18602 miles, 29 June 2009, rectify faulty head gasket, leaking A/C, Porsche AG and GB contrubution left a bill of £3637.86
19479 miles, 30 October 2009, annual service, Porsche Cars Reading - £2778.63 (including front radiator grills)
22401 miles,21 May 2010, replace four shock absorbers as both N/S/F and N/S/R leaking, Porsche Cars Reading - £7599.98
22599 miles, 18 October 2010, replace leaking clutch actuator, power brake pump and OS coolant radiator, Porsche Cars Reading, some goodwill leaving a bill of £3931.81 (original estimate before goodwill £9986.21), clutch checked and measured 29.25mm
23051 miles, 11 November 2010, annual service, Porsche Cars Reading - £2938.21
23182 miles, 10 March 2011, supply and fit standard suspension drop links (to run the car lower as it was fitted with +10mm drop links) - £10084.88
27148 miles, 28 April 2011, oil change, replace lower trailing arm, sundry paintwork to front grills, Porsche Cars Reading - £4087.39
28655 miles, 6 August 2011, replace front PCCB's due to wear - £8645.06
28973 miles, 13 October 2011, annual service, repair rear silencer internals, £1798.26
29899 miles, 30 October 2012, annual service/ 4 year engine out major service, replace clutch, replace headlight £14503.01
I've kept wear data on the clutch since I've owned the car (it was on the original when I bought it) and it measured 28.90mm at the recent service. The clutch needs replacing at 28.00mm, and as the engine was out for the 4 year service, and I suspect it would not last another four years until the next big service, I decided to change it.
The cost was only for the (discounted) clutch as the engine was out for the service, so it made sense to do it now.
I took some time to look through the file on my car, originally a USA car number 263 which I bought from the USA in 2006, and detailed the notable expenses along the way. I've not included tyres, pads etc as I've lost count. I should add the car has completed around 40 track days/ DE days and a lot of the high consumable cost - and my obsession with the car being 100% - has attributed to this:
15 November 2006 car purchased @ 7251 miles, fresh service and full Porsche History
13678 miles, 22 November 2007, annual service Porsche Cars Reading - £2176.03
13761 miles, 11 December 2007, colour change from GT Silver to Basalt Black, Porsche Cars Reading - £9096.44
17487 miles, 13 December 2008, annual service/4 year engine out, new front raditators under goodwill, Porsche Cars Reading - £3857.68
18602 miles, 29 June 2009, rectify faulty head gasket, leaking A/C, Porsche AG and GB contrubution left a bill of £3637.86
19479 miles, 30 October 2009, annual service, Porsche Cars Reading - £2778.63 (including front radiator grills)
22401 miles,21 May 2010, replace four shock absorbers as both N/S/F and N/S/R leaking, Porsche Cars Reading - £7599.98
22599 miles, 18 October 2010, replace leaking clutch actuator, power brake pump and OS coolant radiator, Porsche Cars Reading, some goodwill leaving a bill of £3931.81 (original estimate before goodwill £9986.21), clutch checked and measured 29.25mm
23051 miles, 11 November 2010, annual service, Porsche Cars Reading - £2938.21
23182 miles, 10 March 2011, supply and fit standard suspension drop links (to run the car lower as it was fitted with +10mm drop links) - £10084.88
27148 miles, 28 April 2011, oil change, replace lower trailing arm, sundry paintwork to front grills, Porsche Cars Reading - £4087.39
28655 miles, 6 August 2011, replace front PCCB's due to wear - £8645.06
28973 miles, 13 October 2011, annual service, repair rear silencer internals, £1798.26
29899 miles, 30 October 2012, annual service/ 4 year engine out major service, replace clutch, replace headlight £14503.01
03-18-2013, 02:55 PM
#36
Racer
I am very interested in these cars so I started a nationwide search, created a spreadsheet of every car for sale (and those which have sold) and started doing some analysis. Yes - I have issues. Please feel free to add to this calculator as you have factual data to supply. Hoping this helps others (like me) make good buying decisions.
This probably isnt shocking but it appears the following have the biggest impact on value:
1. Mileage (far and away)
2. Year (2004 cars are worth less)
3. Maintenance history and recent clutch
4. Color (to a lesser degree)
I have about 30 cars in this database so far. If anyone is willing to PM me values for what they paid we can make this more accurate.
The best I can tell - the calculator goes like this:
-Start at $400k for a zero mile 2005 car.
-Subtract $10 for every mile
-Subtract $25k for a 2004
-If you dont have a recent clutch or excellent MNT history subtract $25k
- Rare color (anything other than silver) not sure yet
***This obviously assumes clean carfax, no paintwork etc.
I went through most every post on Rennlist and others. Found a number of documented sales all which fit the model pretty well. Some were a couple years ago and it appears prices have been pretty stable (other than 2009).
Here is an example from a year ago which is the highest mileage actual sale I could find. Its close but not perfect when miles get that high. My guess is miles start costing less as you get over 10k:
One example: 2005, silver, clutch, 19k miles sold for $225k (model says $210k)
If anyone has data to refute this model either PM me or post it up. This is just a start and I'm sure the end will be valuable to those looking for a car.
This probably isnt shocking but it appears the following have the biggest impact on value:
1. Mileage (far and away)
2. Year (2004 cars are worth less)
3. Maintenance history and recent clutch
4. Color (to a lesser degree)
I have about 30 cars in this database so far. If anyone is willing to PM me values for what they paid we can make this more accurate.
The best I can tell - the calculator goes like this:
-Start at $400k for a zero mile 2005 car.
-Subtract $10 for every mile
-Subtract $25k for a 2004
-If you dont have a recent clutch or excellent MNT history subtract $25k
- Rare color (anything other than silver) not sure yet
***This obviously assumes clean carfax, no paintwork etc.
I went through most every post on Rennlist and others. Found a number of documented sales all which fit the model pretty well. Some were a couple years ago and it appears prices have been pretty stable (other than 2009).
Here is an example from a year ago which is the highest mileage actual sale I could find. Its close but not perfect when miles get that high. My guess is miles start costing less as you get over 10k:
One example: 2005, silver, clutch, 19k miles sold for $225k (model says $210k)
If anyone has data to refute this model either PM me or post it up. This is just a start and I'm sure the end will be valuable to those looking for a car.
I would index it against the DOW as well
In 2008 I remember prices in the $250 range, same vintage low mile cars are up a full $125k now and more...
03-18-2013, 03:14 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
Mark
03-19-2013, 03:20 AM
#38
Racer
I'm starting to look seriously now... a couple of questions...
Is it reasonable to assume that a dealer prices a CGT 10% or so above target sale price and that he hopes to make another 10% off the sale... meaning a $400k asking is aiming for $360k sale and was bought for $330k or so?
Are these margins reasonable?
thank you -
Is it reasonable to assume that a dealer prices a CGT 10% or so above target sale price and that he hopes to make another 10% off the sale... meaning a $400k asking is aiming for $360k sale and was bought for $330k or so?
Are these margins reasonable?
thank you -
08-02-2013, 10:12 AM
#39
Racer
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Zug, Switzerland
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€350,000 for late 2005 version, 4,500 km, immaculate service record, unique interior, and a 12% import duty into Switzerland from Germany. So more expensive than your formula, but not terribly off (I grabbed this one when it came to the market; just beat out some guy who flew in for it). No price negotiation (again, because the interior is so unique).
The development of this formula was very helpful in thinking about the overall costs of the CGT (and my purchase hit your formula pretty well) and therefore I have just suffered depreciation of roughly 1,200 miles x $10/mile = $12,000 . As I keep doing this, I will approach the asymptotic limit of the formula which few probably have done...
I believe it is precisely this very real calculation that keeps so many CGTs in air conditioned garages and I doubt the market will change significantly (in fact, the depreciation factor may even go up as very few cars are driven). I'm guessing that there are maybe 100-200 of these cars actually on the road (worldwide). And it is not a day-to-day car anyhow.
As such, I have never seen such fascination by the public over a car as my new CGT. I accidentally formed a traffic jam with a row of cars lined up in St. Tropez to slow down and take pictures of it. Truckers honk or flash with thumbs up; family cars come roaring up so the kid in the back can take a closer look at the car (which I readily assist). A scruffy little boy of maybe 6 years old in St. Tropez (who looked just like the kid in Cinema Paradiso) walked around my car and said something in French I didn't understand. I apologized that I didn't understand him (in French) and he retorted in English "Mister, you car is soooo beautiful". No reader of car reviews, just the simple impression the car made on him (although there are many sports cars in St. Tropez). $10 a mile? Worth every penny. I'll take and enjoy it everywhere. It is iconic and you don't need to be a car buff to appreciate it.
The development of this formula was very helpful in thinking about the overall costs of the CGT (and my purchase hit your formula pretty well) and therefore I have just suffered depreciation of roughly 1,200 miles x $10/mile = $12,000 . As I keep doing this, I will approach the asymptotic limit of the formula which few probably have done...
I believe it is precisely this very real calculation that keeps so many CGTs in air conditioned garages and I doubt the market will change significantly (in fact, the depreciation factor may even go up as very few cars are driven). I'm guessing that there are maybe 100-200 of these cars actually on the road (worldwide). And it is not a day-to-day car anyhow.
As such, I have never seen such fascination by the public over a car as my new CGT. I accidentally formed a traffic jam with a row of cars lined up in St. Tropez to slow down and take pictures of it. Truckers honk or flash with thumbs up; family cars come roaring up so the kid in the back can take a closer look at the car (which I readily assist). A scruffy little boy of maybe 6 years old in St. Tropez (who looked just like the kid in Cinema Paradiso) walked around my car and said something in French I didn't understand. I apologized that I didn't understand him (in French) and he retorted in English "Mister, you car is soooo beautiful". No reader of car reviews, just the simple impression the car made on him (although there are many sports cars in St. Tropez). $10 a mile? Worth every penny. I'll take and enjoy it everywhere. It is iconic and you don't need to be a car buff to appreciate it.
08-15-2013, 10:03 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Great post and info. I am on the slow search to add one of these to the garage. Will do it over next 12 months, maybe over winter. Did you find time of year to matter at all? I would guess with a car of this value probably not given rarity and that it shouldn't be burning a hole in one's pocket if they have the means for one anyway.
08-16-2013, 11:14 AM
#44
Instructor
Great post and info. I am on the slow search to add one of these to the garage. Will do it over next 12 months, maybe over winter. Did you find time of year to matter at all? I would guess with a car of this value probably not given rarity and that it shouldn't be burning a hole in one's pocket if they have the means for one anyway.
08-16-2013, 05:23 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Totally agree. I feel that pressure. I truly believe in 20 years this is a $1 MM car. They will only become more rare and appreciated. I was shocked at the price of the spyder. Its nice and all, but would rather have a stick for the fun of it and I just wouldn't drop that kind of coin on a car. I need bonus season to come (EOY), but have been at least looking for a unique color under 5K miles.