CFRP - Ten Year Lifespan?
03-07-2007, 10:08 PM
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CFRP - Ten Year Lifespan?
1) Since the Enzo and CGT CFRP (carbon fiber reinforced plastic) tubs were made by the same Italian company, does the CGT tub also have a safety lifespan of about ten years like the F50 and Enzo? What is the price for a CGT tub? Is only PAG qualified to replace a tub which would necessitate shipping a car to Germany?
2) Is it safer to fly on Boeing aircrafts rather than Airbus when using commercial airlines?
Source: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=140720
2) Is it safer to fly on Boeing aircrafts rather than Airbus when using commercial airlines?
Source: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=140720
03-11-2007, 03:09 PM
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I don't know of a lifespan for composite materials. The aircraft industry going to this material because of it's fatigue life among other reasons. The new Boeing 787 and the Airbus A380 use vast amounts of the stuff and I am sure that they will be in service for many years. Structural engineers are looking at making composite bridges because of the corrosion resistance. It is true that the ultimate life span is unkown but I would guess it would be longer than 10 years. There may be some sort of a disclaimer for legal reasons, and maybe that is where the 10 years originated.
03-11-2007, 09:25 PM
#3
I have always taken a fancy to carbon materials and their durability. My experience starts well short of carbon tubs, but carbon body panels; hoods in particular. When I was in high school there was a kid with an RSX that had a carbon fiber hood. He hit a telephone pole head on at about 45mph, which for a head on crash is pretty serious. The driver (friend) died from the impact, broke his neck which caused him to suffocate. The passenger may have died from the impact first just as the driver did, but he was pulled out with numerous cuts from shattered carbon. Whether or not it is what killed him only he knows, but it got me thinking. The conclusion that passed around the local car scene was the the force of the accident pushed and shattered the carbon in one instance, which by the time the windshield was gone causing shards to enter the cabin.
I keep in mind that a carbon fiber hood designed by an aftermarket company, not certified for road use, is significantly different than that of a million dollar Ferrari. I understand as well that ANY car, doing 100+ and hitting a solid object, will nearly always result in death. There is a reason every time someone survives and accident like that its call a miracle. The point though for me is how it breaks. Carbon monocoques can take a lot more force than that of a steel or aluminum counterpart, but at its stress point what happens. I tend to agree with the side of fear on the Ferrarichat.com post that its whats unknown that worries me. I can find the stress points of nearly all steel and aluminum, but all I can find on carbon composites is its yield strength.
I also find it interesting that the manufactures of the carbon tubs gives a life span to the parts. I am not sure whether the lifespan of 10 years is equivalent to that of a warranty. Meaning Porsche offers a 4 year, 48000 mile drivetrain warranty (maybe, but no idea) stating that they feel they have built a product that will last for that amount of time. In truth there are engines and transmissions at more than 200k miles and strong. Does this mean that after 10 years they don't guarrantee the product, or it SHOULD be replaced on a 10 year basis?
I have never had a good experience on an Airbus to date. I don't fly a ton any more (lost all my flight benefits from family after the 9/11 airline decline), but so far im 3/3 on Airbuses. First Airbus from NC to Colorado had a 'fueling' issue in which we ended up on an alternate airplane. When we left Vail via an Airbus the automatic leveling suspension failed on take off causing a very eary feeling during take off, then even more scary when we landed as the plan was at about a 10 degree tilt. Last incident was a short jump to NYC from NC where I assume the brakes locked up, but needless to say I was above the wheel when the tire blew out. This can happen on any airplane, but just my experiences on Airbuses. I have had issues on Boeings as well, but not 3/3. More like 5/150 over the years.
Wes
I keep in mind that a carbon fiber hood designed by an aftermarket company, not certified for road use, is significantly different than that of a million dollar Ferrari. I understand as well that ANY car, doing 100+ and hitting a solid object, will nearly always result in death. There is a reason every time someone survives and accident like that its call a miracle. The point though for me is how it breaks. Carbon monocoques can take a lot more force than that of a steel or aluminum counterpart, but at its stress point what happens. I tend to agree with the side of fear on the Ferrarichat.com post that its whats unknown that worries me. I can find the stress points of nearly all steel and aluminum, but all I can find on carbon composites is its yield strength.
I also find it interesting that the manufactures of the carbon tubs gives a life span to the parts. I am not sure whether the lifespan of 10 years is equivalent to that of a warranty. Meaning Porsche offers a 4 year, 48000 mile drivetrain warranty (maybe, but no idea) stating that they feel they have built a product that will last for that amount of time. In truth there are engines and transmissions at more than 200k miles and strong. Does this mean that after 10 years they don't guarrantee the product, or it SHOULD be replaced on a 10 year basis?
I have never had a good experience on an Airbus to date. I don't fly a ton any more (lost all my flight benefits from family after the 9/11 airline decline), but so far im 3/3 on Airbuses. First Airbus from NC to Colorado had a 'fueling' issue in which we ended up on an alternate airplane. When we left Vail via an Airbus the automatic leveling suspension failed on take off causing a very eary feeling during take off, then even more scary when we landed as the plan was at about a 10 degree tilt. Last incident was a short jump to NYC from NC where I assume the brakes locked up, but needless to say I was above the wheel when the tire blew out. This can happen on any airplane, but just my experiences on Airbuses. I have had issues on Boeings as well, but not 3/3. More like 5/150 over the years.
Wes
03-12-2007, 01:12 AM
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The F50 tub does not have only ten year lifespan. it requires a ten year inspection to check for delamination and adhesive integrity, not replacement. The likelihood that an F50, or Enzo or CGT tub would require replacement at ten years is very tiny and would apply to cars that have high mileage in high stress situations where the tub has been been subjected to heat and sunshine almost constantly. I hardly think that many of the CF tub cars out there are subjected to that kind of extreme environment and conditions. I'm not concerned in the least bit.
03-12-2007, 09:54 PM
#5
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Based on my observations, the tub of the CGT held up very well after a 100mile impact. A close inspection revealed little deformity to the tub though the exterior of the car was totally demolished.
Some may argue that the tub should be more forgiving and flex in a high impact situation thereby absorbing some of the engery of the impact and not passing it on the the occupants. For car manufacturers it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.
Some may argue that the tub should be more forgiving and flex in a high impact situation thereby absorbing some of the engery of the impact and not passing it on the the occupants. For car manufacturers it is damned if you do and damned if you don't.
03-12-2007, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by whakiewes
I have always taken a fancy to carbon materials and their durability. My experience starts well short of carbon tubs, but carbon body panels; hoods in particular. When I was in high school there was a kid with an RSX that had a carbon fiber hood. He hit a telephone pole head on at about 45mph, which for a head on crash is pretty serious. The driver (friend) died from the impact, broke his neck which caused him to suffocate. The passenger may have died from the impact first just as the driver did, but he was pulled out with numerous cuts from shattered carbon. Whether or not it is what killed him only he knows, but it got me thinking. The conclusion that passed around the local car scene was the the force of the accident pushed and shattered the carbon in one instance, which by the time the windshield was gone causing shards to enter the cabin.
I keep in mind that a carbon fiber hood designed by an aftermarket company, not certified for road use, is significantly different than that of a million dollar Ferrari. I understand as well that ANY car, doing 100+ and hitting a solid object, will nearly always result in death. There is a reason every time someone survives and accident like that its call a miracle. The point though for me is how it breaks. Carbon monocoques can take a lot more force than that of a steel or aluminum counterpart, but at its stress point what happens. I tend to agree with the side of fear on the Ferrarichat.com post that its whats unknown that worries me. I can find the stress points of nearly all steel and aluminum, but all I can find on carbon composites is its yield strength.
I also find it interesting that the manufactures of the carbon tubs gives a life span to the parts. I am not sure whether the lifespan of 10 years is equivalent to that of a warranty. Meaning Porsche offers a 4 year, 48000 mile drivetrain warranty (maybe, but no idea) stating that they feel they have built a product that will last for that amount of time. In truth there are engines and transmissions at more than 200k miles and strong. Does this mean that after 10 years they don't guarrantee the product, or it SHOULD be replaced on a 10 year basis?
I have never had a good experience on an Airbus to date. I don't fly a ton any more (lost all my flight benefits from family after the 9/11 airline decline), but so far im 3/3 on Airbuses. First Airbus from NC to Colorado had a 'fueling' issue in which we ended up on an alternate airplane. When we left Vail via an Airbus the automatic leveling suspension failed on take off causing a very eary feeling during take off, then even more scary when we landed as the plan was at about a 10 degree tilt. Last incident was a short jump to NYC from NC where I assume the brakes locked up, but needless to say I was above the wheel when the tire blew out. This can happen on any airplane, but just my experiences on Airbuses. I have had issues on Boeings as well, but not 3/3. More like 5/150 over the years.
Wes
I keep in mind that a carbon fiber hood designed by an aftermarket company, not certified for road use, is significantly different than that of a million dollar Ferrari. I understand as well that ANY car, doing 100+ and hitting a solid object, will nearly always result in death. There is a reason every time someone survives and accident like that its call a miracle. The point though for me is how it breaks. Carbon monocoques can take a lot more force than that of a steel or aluminum counterpart, but at its stress point what happens. I tend to agree with the side of fear on the Ferrarichat.com post that its whats unknown that worries me. I can find the stress points of nearly all steel and aluminum, but all I can find on carbon composites is its yield strength.
I also find it interesting that the manufactures of the carbon tubs gives a life span to the parts. I am not sure whether the lifespan of 10 years is equivalent to that of a warranty. Meaning Porsche offers a 4 year, 48000 mile drivetrain warranty (maybe, but no idea) stating that they feel they have built a product that will last for that amount of time. In truth there are engines and transmissions at more than 200k miles and strong. Does this mean that after 10 years they don't guarrantee the product, or it SHOULD be replaced on a 10 year basis?
I have never had a good experience on an Airbus to date. I don't fly a ton any more (lost all my flight benefits from family after the 9/11 airline decline), but so far im 3/3 on Airbuses. First Airbus from NC to Colorado had a 'fueling' issue in which we ended up on an alternate airplane. When we left Vail via an Airbus the automatic leveling suspension failed on take off causing a very eary feeling during take off, then even more scary when we landed as the plan was at about a 10 degree tilt. Last incident was a short jump to NYC from NC where I assume the brakes locked up, but needless to say I was above the wheel when the tire blew out. This can happen on any airplane, but just my experiences on Airbuses. I have had issues on Boeings as well, but not 3/3. More like 5/150 over the years.
Wes
Was that a rant or? I'm failing to see your connection with CF, it's lifespan, and Airbus.
You let us know when the ADHD subsides.
03-13-2007, 12:10 PM
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I think that the CF technology used to build the F50 is different than the process used on the Enzo and C-GT.
There are some F50's out there that have already been re-tubbed.
There are some F50's out there that have already been re-tubbed.
Last edited by HD911; 03-13-2007 at 02:29 PM.
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03-14-2007, 12:06 AM
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I do not have any special knowledge of Ferrari F50's, but if tubs are being replaced I would think it would be a result of design or manufacturing process problems with that specific model of car. Composite parts require special techniques for design and manufacture. The design process must take into account load magnitude and paths so material thickness and fiber orientation can be optimized. The parts are fabricated by hand and cured in an autoclave under specific conditions. This is one of the reasons these cars cost as much as they do.
03-14-2007, 12:14 AM
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I do not have any special knowledge of Ferrari F50's, but if tubs are being replaced I would think it would be a result of design or manufacturing process problems with that specific model of car. Composite parts require special techniques for design and manufacture. The design process must take into account load magnitude and paths so material thickness and fiber orientation can be optimized. The parts are fabricated by hand and cured in an autoclave under specific conditions. This is one of the reasons these cars cost as much as they do. I think that a car built to proper standards would have a very long lifespan indeed.
03-15-2007, 04:15 AM
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Originally Posted by alexpapas
it requires a ten year inspection to check for delamination and adhesive integrity, not replacement.
I can help a bit...
carbon tubs are due for an Inspection at a ten year mark. Not replacement.
they are to be inspected for delamination and wear at critical load bearing tie- ins and joints. That is all. If for any reason the critical areas of the tub show damage or weakening, then they are to be replaced. Racing car tubs use different types of epoxy matrix materials. Road chassis are designed with longevity in mind, and so are much heavier than pure racing designs.
No need for a witch hunt. carbon tubs will last beyond all of our lifetimes.
Source: http://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/sho...#post136539737
03-15-2007, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by HD911
I think that the CF technology used to build the F50 is different than the process used on the Enzo and C-GT.
There are some F50's out there that have already been re-tubbed.
There are some F50's out there that have already been re-tubbed.
The F50 owner's world is small and tight-knit in that information re the cars flows rapidly to owners. The Ferrari factory is excellent regarding recall campaigns and there has not been any recall or mandatory inspection of F50 CF tubs.
