Interesting CGT NEWS
11-16-2006, 11:11 PM
#32
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Los Gatos / Tahoe, CA
Posts: 2,726
Likes: 0
Received 6 Likes
on
6 Posts
Originally Posted by RS Clubsport
It's the only car that I would replace my 993GT2 with!
Saw a black on black one for sale today 1,500 miles: http://www.siliconvalleyautogroup.co...hoto_page.html
11-19-2006, 01:00 AM
#33
Originally Posted by themarsman
I have been in negotiations where I feel I made a fair offer and the seller came back with a small differential counter offer such as this and I told them no thanks and never made another offer. It certainly didn't mean that I wouldn't stand behind my original offer, it just meant that if they are trying to squeeze me for a small additional increment I don't want to deal with them at all.
The price for a new Black CGT is no where near 300K and I haven't heard of very many going for under 400K. In my opinion it was a fair offer for both parties with the current market. If the car was worth much less, it wouldn't of made sense that a dealer would of tried to get another 5K out of the deal.
The price for a new Black CGT is no where near 300K and I haven't heard of very many going for under 400K. In my opinion it was a fair offer for both parties with the current market. If the car was worth much less, it wouldn't of made sense that a dealer would of tried to get another 5K out of the deal.
11-19-2006, 06:22 PM
#34
Drop me your e-mail address and I'll send some pictures of the 993GT2. I'm on the way back to the UK tonight after buying the 7300 mile Bentley Long Island GT. My friend who travelled with me bought the 4k mile one.
First time I've driven one and just one word - Epic!
Should be back in the UK in time for a track day on 23 December.
First time I've driven one and just one word - Epic!
Should be back in the UK in time for a track day on 23 December.
11-19-2006, 06:29 PM
#35
Racer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oakland, MI, USA
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by RS Clubsport
Drop me your e-mail address and I'll send some pictures of the 993GT2. I'm on the way back to the UK tonight after buying the 7300 mile Bentley Long Island GT. My friend who travelled with me bought the 4k mile one.
First time I've driven one and just one word - Epic!
Should be back in the UK in time for a track day on 23 December.
First time I've driven one and just one word - Epic!
Should be back in the UK in time for a track day on 23 December.
11-19-2006, 06:56 PM
#36
Hopefully around 3 weeks they should be back. Both cars are going to the New York Porsche Dealer who will do a couple of minor things (CEL on one car, tire pressure sensor fault on the other) and an oil service for each. I'm getting some additional 3m added as well.
The cars are in great condition, we spent 5 hours there on Friday inspecting them. Can't speak highly enough to Bentley Long Island (and the delightful Nicole Ehlers) for the service. The cars were if anything in better condition than we had expected.
The cars are in great condition, we spent 5 hours there on Friday inspecting them. Can't speak highly enough to Bentley Long Island (and the delightful Nicole Ehlers) for the service. The cars were if anything in better condition than we had expected.
11-19-2006, 11:20 PM
#37
Burning Brakes
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada...
Posts: 1,249
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I don't get this...how come the Ferrari Enzo sold like hotcakes and people are still paying ridiculous amounts. The Carrera GT is equally as impressive and the 'Flagship' car for Porsche as is the Enzo. So what gives?
Both Porsche & Ferrari have long histories, racing heritage and massive loyal customer bases. Is it because more people associate Ferrari with wealth and some people who feel 'inadequate' have to show their wealth by buying 'the best' Ferrari? Rather than buying a Carrera GT? Or is it the Enzo's more radical/exotic looks?
I don't really follow sales of these cars too closely so I may have a wrong opinion, so forgive me if I do. I just find it odd that there are still as many Carrera GT's for sale?
And without furtherado congratulations to RS Clubsport & his friend on their purchases! Simply amazing feat of engineering, as an Engineer I always appreciate the little things that make it into these cars--let alone any car!
Soo let's see those two badboys together! (The cars that is
)
Both Porsche & Ferrari have long histories, racing heritage and massive loyal customer bases. Is it because more people associate Ferrari with wealth and some people who feel 'inadequate' have to show their wealth by buying 'the best' Ferrari? Rather than buying a Carrera GT? Or is it the Enzo's more radical/exotic looks?
I don't really follow sales of these cars too closely so I may have a wrong opinion, so forgive me if I do. I just find it odd that there are still as many Carrera GT's for sale?
And without furtherado congratulations to RS Clubsport & his friend on their purchases! Simply amazing feat of engineering, as an Engineer I always appreciate the little things that make it into these cars--let alone any car!
Soo let's see those two badboys together! (The cars that is
)
11-20-2006, 11:28 AM
#38
People who buy and keep cgt's are drivers who enjoy the car for what it is, a truly great drivers car. People who buy Ferrari's offen do so because they are Ferrari's and Ferrari's have a certain "pedigree" that attracts certain people who are not necessarily drivers.
The Porsche cgt does not have that burden and therefore is allowed to stand on its own as a truly great car, which it does because well over 1200 have been sold.
Could Ferrari have sold 1200 Enzo's (which is also a great car in its own right)? Probably not.
It is loud, lacking in creature comforts attracts a lot of unwanted attention and is extreamly expensive.
Given the choice, I will take the Carrera GT over the Enzo. It just has more "bang for the buck".
The Porsche cgt does not have that burden and therefore is allowed to stand on its own as a truly great car, which it does because well over 1200 have been sold.
Could Ferrari have sold 1200 Enzo's (which is also a great car in its own right)? Probably not.
It is loud, lacking in creature comforts attracts a lot of unwanted attention and is extreamly expensive.
Given the choice, I will take the Carrera GT over the Enzo. It just has more "bang for the buck".
11-20-2006, 04:19 PM
#39
Thanks guys for your kind words of support etc
Also as a ex engineer with a passion for Porsches, the Ferrari is not in the same game, just like the very agricultural lambos .The gt is very user friendly, and we look forward to the challenge of driving them.
I own some other Porsches, and just sold my 993gt2 that i enjoyed for 8 years , i have to say that the cgt is probably the best car they have made to date ,very different to other Porsches and the gt2, Porsche will struggle to better .The sound is something else ,along with the driving experience ,so who cares if the car is a little slower than a hot rod 911 turbo or what ever ,its the delivery that counts.
The condition of the 2 cars was found to be spot on after the 5 hours or so on the car lifts ,all recalls and service history correct,totaly unmarked top to bottom, even measured the paint depth all over.
The 1200 made,just means more of us can enjoy them,if it was just to be 500 or so,i am sure they would have cost more to produce than the enzo!
We had a great time in NY ,and met some very nice friendly people, not to mention the bars & Restaurants of Manhattan.
And to top it all, we will be happy CGT owners.
Also as a ex engineer with a passion for Porsches, the Ferrari is not in the same game, just like the very agricultural lambos .The gt is very user friendly, and we look forward to the challenge of driving them.
I own some other Porsches, and just sold my 993gt2 that i enjoyed for 8 years , i have to say that the cgt is probably the best car they have made to date ,very different to other Porsches and the gt2, Porsche will struggle to better .The sound is something else ,along with the driving experience ,so who cares if the car is a little slower than a hot rod 911 turbo or what ever ,its the delivery that counts.
The condition of the 2 cars was found to be spot on after the 5 hours or so on the car lifts ,all recalls and service history correct,totaly unmarked top to bottom, even measured the paint depth all over.
The 1200 made,just means more of us can enjoy them,if it was just to be 500 or so,i am sure they would have cost more to produce than the enzo!
We had a great time in NY ,and met some very nice friendly people, not to mention the bars & Restaurants of Manhattan.
And to top it all, we will be happy CGT owners.
11-20-2006, 04:24 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Black Shadow
People who buy and keep cgt's are drivers who enjoy the car for what it is, a truly great drivers car. People who buy Ferrari's offen do so because they are Ferrari's and Ferrari's have a certain "pedigree" that attracts certain people who are not necessarily drivers.
The Porsche cgt does not have that burden and therefore is allowed to stand on its own as a truly great car, which it does because well over 1200 have been sold.
Could Ferrari have sold 1200 Enzo's (which is also a great car in its own right)? Probably not.
It is loud, lacking in creature comforts attracts a lot of unwanted attention and is extreamly expensive.
Given the choice, I will take the Carrera GT over the Enzo. It just has more "bang for the buck".
The Porsche cgt does not have that burden and therefore is allowed to stand on its own as a truly great car, which it does because well over 1200 have been sold.
Could Ferrari have sold 1200 Enzo's (which is also a great car in its own right)? Probably not.
It is loud, lacking in creature comforts attracts a lot of unwanted attention and is extreamly expensive.
Given the choice, I will take the Carrera GT over the Enzo. It just has more "bang for the buck".
If your looking for a reasons why the CGT has a dismal resale value look no further than the following two reasons.. Driveability and it is produced by Porsche which is now a mass producer of sport cars. The specialness and uniqueness that adds value to limited production cars no longer exist with the Porsche name. Those that under the impression that in 10 years the CGT may be worth its initially MSRP are engaged in self deception.
BTW, the Enzo could have sold over 2000 cars but for Ferrari insistence that production must be limited. As it is, they agreed reluctantly to build 50 more cars than they intended. Nevertheless the Enzo is selling 100% over MSRP and the CGT 35% BELOW MSRP and falling.
11-20-2006, 06:25 PM
#41
My point was if the Enzo were produced under a different name other then Ferrari, it would not have its current pricing.
The Enzo is a tremendous car in its own right, but there are several other cars that are in the same league that have to stand on their own merits which the Carrera GT does very well.
Ferrari is as profit motivated as any manufacturer and if they felt they could sell 2000 Enzo's they would have done it. Consider the F40, over 1300 were produced and their used price is still below their new retail price.
It is about supply and demand.
The number of CGT's on the market today, is causing the price to be lower.
If 200 Enzo's came onto the market tomorrow, you can bet the price on Enzo's would be in free fall.
Does that make it any less of a car, of course not. But it will effect the cars current pricing
What would have happened to the price on CGT's had Porsche built only 100 of them?
They would have easily doubled in price on the used car market.
The Enzo is a tremendous car in its own right, but there are several other cars that are in the same league that have to stand on their own merits which the Carrera GT does very well.
Ferrari is as profit motivated as any manufacturer and if they felt they could sell 2000 Enzo's they would have done it. Consider the F40, over 1300 were produced and their used price is still below their new retail price.
It is about supply and demand.
The number of CGT's on the market today, is causing the price to be lower.
If 200 Enzo's came onto the market tomorrow, you can bet the price on Enzo's would be in free fall.
Does that make it any less of a car, of course not. But it will effect the cars current pricing
What would have happened to the price on CGT's had Porsche built only 100 of them?
They would have easily doubled in price on the used car market.
11-20-2006, 07:39 PM
#42
Racer
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oakland, MI, USA
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Nick
I agree the CGT is a drivers car but so is the Enzo. The problem for the CGT is very very few can drive it well. With the Enzo that is not the case.
If your looking for a reasons why the CGT has a dismal resale value look no further than the following two reasons.. Driveability and it is produced by Porsche which is now a mass producer of sport cars. The specialness and uniqueness that adds value to limited production cars no longer exist with the Porsche name. Those that under the impression that in 10 years the CGT may be worth its initially MSRP are engaged in self deception.
BTW, the Enzo could have sold over 2000 cars but for Ferrari insistence that production must be limited. As it is, they agreed reluctantly to build 50 more cars than they intended. Nevertheless the Enzo is selling 100% over MSRP and the CGT 35% BELOW MSRP and falling.
If your looking for a reasons why the CGT has a dismal resale value look no further than the following two reasons.. Driveability and it is produced by Porsche which is now a mass producer of sport cars. The specialness and uniqueness that adds value to limited production cars no longer exist with the Porsche name. Those that under the impression that in 10 years the CGT may be worth its initially MSRP are engaged in self deception.
BTW, the Enzo could have sold over 2000 cars but for Ferrari insistence that production must be limited. As it is, they agreed reluctantly to build 50 more cars than they intended. Nevertheless the Enzo is selling 100% over MSRP and the CGT 35% BELOW MSRP and falling.
The CGT is not hard to drive at all, it is hard to drive at 9/10th's but so is any modern supercar including the Enzo. There is no way that they could of sold 2,000 copies of the Enzo at anywhere near the price they sold for, there aren't that many buyers of high dollar sportscars. If they tried they would of had to heavily discount them. I know someone who bought one for 1.2 million and now is trying to sell his at 900K and can't find anyone to buy the car, he will probably have to drop to around 800K to sell it in the spring. This is what happens to a lot of people who have to be one of the first to own a car. He owns a '04 CGT and bought that car at MSRP and also had one of the first ones available. If you ask him the CGT is a much better buy than the Enzo considering if he had to sell the CGT he would only lose about 150K and is going to lose about 400K on the Enzo. The Enzo is not anywhere near 100% about MSRP and the only CGT's that are 35% below MSRP are used vehicles.
I am going to try and explain something about Ferrari's that you don't seem to grasp. It doesn't matter what the MSRP of the car is if you aren't able to purchase one at that price. I considered buying a 430 Spider and if I could of bought one at MSRP I would of done so, but I would of had to pay substantially over list to own the car. If I kept the car for a couple years, put about 10K miles on the car and tried to sell it I would of lost probably 30% of the value. Not based on MSRP but what I would of had to pay to own the vehicle. I bought my CGT for 415K and I think I could sell it for about 315K if I wanted to, so it almost two years I have lost about 100K. To drive a CGT that is a bargain!!! I have not seen the CGT drop much in the last year and it seems to me the prices are holding pretty steady.
I don't buy cars as investments, I buy them to drive and there is no better car than the CGT period! I have been looking for a great deal on a low mileage white or red one to add another to my stable so if anyone hears of one please let me know!
As for whether or not the CGT will sell for over MSRP in ten more years, probably not. The 959 isn't selling for more than MSRP but it is holding its value quite well and I feel the CGT will be worth more percentage wise than most cars in the future. I would be willing to wager that a CGT will be worth more than a Ferrari 430 Spider in 10 years, even though buying one now they are pretty close to the same price. Ferrari made too many of them, just like the CGT to have them increase in price in less than 10 years. Many people paid high 200's and low 300's for 360 Spiders early on and have lost a high percentage of value since the 430 was introduced. As soon as Ferrari comes out with their new car the price of the 430's will drop just as fast as the 360's.
Moral of the story: If you can get a 430 at MSRP or Ferrari's next generation replacement for the 430, do it! If you have to buy the car on the open market you are going to lose a percentage when you go to sell the vehicle, it isn't going to go up in value. If you want the best supercar in the world for a bargain, buy the CGT, drive it and expect it to go down in value just like any other car.
11-20-2006, 08:13 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
People who buy a Ferrari for a premium above MSRP do so for a good reason. They are not yet "clients" within the dealership and as a result are unable to get Ferrai's at MSRP. However, once they do, future ferrari driving pleasures are almost cost free. The car does appreciate in value regardless of the mileage and is sold usually above MSRP.
Though I agree that car buying is not an investment, buying new Ferrari's is certainly as close as you will get.
FWIW, when Ferrari announced the making of the Enzo, my understanding is over 5000 past and present Ferrai owners wanted one. Ferrari went through a vetting process in decided which Ferrari owners would get one. Many owners who did not make the cut were extremely unhappy. Yet, Ferrari refused to increase production to meet the demand. Contrast that with Porsche and what their greed did to their "supercar".
Finally, most car reviewers who drove the CGT clearly were enamoured with its performance. However, they also went on to say that it was a difficult car to drive fast. The rewards are great if you can do it but most cannot.
Though I agree that car buying is not an investment, buying new Ferrari's is certainly as close as you will get.
FWIW, when Ferrari announced the making of the Enzo, my understanding is over 5000 past and present Ferrai owners wanted one. Ferrari went through a vetting process in decided which Ferrari owners would get one. Many owners who did not make the cut were extremely unhappy. Yet, Ferrari refused to increase production to meet the demand. Contrast that with Porsche and what their greed did to their "supercar".
Finally, most car reviewers who drove the CGT clearly were enamoured with its performance. However, they also went on to say that it was a difficult car to drive fast. The rewards are great if you can do it but most cannot.
11-20-2006, 08:32 PM
#44
Racer
Join Date: May 2005
Location: NY
Posts: 261
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Typical Ponzi scheme or pyramidal marketing. Works as long as you have new buyers. Sadly Ferrari itself is the looser, and the dealers are making all the money. If this was Wall Street, people would go to prison for these schemes...
11-21-2006, 04:52 AM
#45
The reason the Enzo sells for more, is that there a lot fewer, and Ferraris are valued higher than Porsches. From most accounts I've heard, the Enzo is not much different to drive, other than you don't need to know how to drive a manual trans.
I highly doubt that the "easier" F1 "automatic" trans in the Enzo is what sells it, given its rarity and badge.
Ferraris do depreciate. If you put anything other than a trivial number of miles on it, you will lose money. If you factor in the large depreciation from the first 1 or 2 you have to buy at over MSRP, the costs can be considerable. Still, the Ferrari does seem to hold value better than most cars, especially compared to p cars.
I will agree with Nick that Porsche just got greedy and made too many CGTs.
I highly doubt that the "easier" F1 "automatic" trans in the Enzo is what sells it, given its rarity and badge.
Originally Posted by Nick
People who buy a Ferrari for a premium above MSRP do so for a good reason. They are not yet "clients" within the dealership and as a result are unable to get Ferrai's at MSRP. However, once they do, future ferrari driving pleasures are almost cost free. The car does appreciate in value regardless of the mileage and is sold usually above MSRP.
I will agree with Nick that Porsche just got greedy and made too many CGTs.