Carrera Gt prices
12-27-2006, 01:52 PM
#46
Rennlist Member
Having spent considerable time in both cars, the WOW factor is about the same. Wes, you are right in pointing out that people do not connect the CGT to Porsche. The most often question asked when riding and driving a CGT is what make is the car. When they are told it is a Porsche they are quite surprised.
However, your excellent analysis missing one critical point. I would wager the majority of Ferrari owners were previous Porsche owners. Driving performance is important to us but not important enough to sacrifice, beauty, exclusivity, value and uniqueness. I can buy a car in the mid fifties mod it and have all the driving performance I can handle.
Furthermore, a majority of Ferrari owners could afford a CGT and opted not to buy one even though they are readily available at an attractive price. However, the reverse is not true. Most CGT owners are not able to buy the latest Ferrari (even though the can afford one) unless they are willing substantially over MSRP. This supports your view that there is a night a day difference between Ferrari brand value and Porsche brand value. Porsche is all about profit regardless of the impact on its customer base. Ferrari is about providing its small but growing customer base a partnership designed to benefit the owner and the manufacturer. In one, it is all take and in the other, let's both benefit.
I would take the latter any day year or century.
However, your excellent analysis missing one critical point. I would wager the majority of Ferrari owners were previous Porsche owners. Driving performance is important to us but not important enough to sacrifice, beauty, exclusivity, value and uniqueness. I can buy a car in the mid fifties mod it and have all the driving performance I can handle.
Furthermore, a majority of Ferrari owners could afford a CGT and opted not to buy one even though they are readily available at an attractive price. However, the reverse is not true. Most CGT owners are not able to buy the latest Ferrari (even though the can afford one) unless they are willing substantially over MSRP. This supports your view that there is a night a day difference between Ferrari brand value and Porsche brand value. Porsche is all about profit regardless of the impact on its customer base. Ferrari is about providing its small but growing customer base a partnership designed to benefit the owner and the manufacturer. In one, it is all take and in the other, let's both benefit.
I would take the latter any day year or century.
Last edited by Nick; 12-27-2006 at 02:17 PM.
12-27-2006, 04:13 PM
#47
Something about quality
Just when I thought you knew something about quality with your diatribe on the CGT, you give yourself away when you mentioned Glocks. Although they are very good guns, they can't hold a candle to Sig Sauers. You'd be a lot better off with a Sig 226 with an extra clip or a Sig 220 with two extra clips than any Glock. It's like comparing a Z06 to a F430 or CGT. Although the Z06 is a very good car, it doesn't have the quality build in comparison to that of a Ferrari or a Porsche.
Now let's get back to your comparisons. Since you're not an owner of a CGT, then you don't get to experience as many comments from lots of people that a CGT owner does get. I had a 2006 Lamborghini Murcielago (Pearl Green) that I sold a couple months ago. It got a ton of looks just like the CGT does. But, I feel the Pearl Green paint contibuted to a lot of the attention (which was certainly appreciated). My F430, which is an aboslutely fantastic car quality wise as well as performance and looks wise, gets slightly less attention than the CGT does.
Yes, most people don't know that the CGT is a Porsche and when I tell them it is, they say "Geez... I never knew that Porsche built a car like that!" Even one of my son's friends (36 years old), after seeing me riding down the street in the CGT just after I got it, e-mailed my son and said he thought I had been kidnapped by aliens because he saw me going down the road in some kind of spaceship! So that goes to give an example of people thinking the CGT design is a lot more 'exotic' than the F430. One mistake by Porsche I feel is naming the car a Carrera GT. When you mention the word Carrera to people without them seeing the car, they think it's associated with the 911 Carrera line.
Other people's comments on the F430 are that it's beautiful, wild looking, really sharp, etc., but on the CGT their comments are crazy, insane, OMG, etc. Most people to me seem to think the CGT is a more outrageous car (looks wise) than the F430.
I love both cars and enjoy the similarities as well as the differences. I do agree with you that the Ferrari 'mystique' keeps them priced well above average for new and used car prices. From what I've read, the 599 will command $75,000 or more over sticker for anyone wanting to ante up the 'moolah' for a 'new' 100-500 miles on the odometer car. BUT, it will be interesting to see if they continue to hold their prices 3-4 years after intro. I also loved the 04 575 Maranello that I sold 4 or 5 months ago but it didn't hold its price as well as the F430 is enjoying right now. So not all Ferraris necessarily command exorbitant prices for years. Just check out the Scaglietti prices! Magwheel p.s. Personally, I think the F430 is still a better looking car than the 599!
Now let's get back to your comparisons. Since you're not an owner of a CGT, then you don't get to experience as many comments from lots of people that a CGT owner does get. I had a 2006 Lamborghini Murcielago (Pearl Green) that I sold a couple months ago. It got a ton of looks just like the CGT does. But, I feel the Pearl Green paint contibuted to a lot of the attention (which was certainly appreciated). My F430, which is an aboslutely fantastic car quality wise as well as performance and looks wise, gets slightly less attention than the CGT does.
Yes, most people don't know that the CGT is a Porsche and when I tell them it is, they say "Geez... I never knew that Porsche built a car like that!" Even one of my son's friends (36 years old), after seeing me riding down the street in the CGT just after I got it, e-mailed my son and said he thought I had been kidnapped by aliens because he saw me going down the road in some kind of spaceship! So that goes to give an example of people thinking the CGT design is a lot more 'exotic' than the F430. One mistake by Porsche I feel is naming the car a Carrera GT. When you mention the word Carrera to people without them seeing the car, they think it's associated with the 911 Carrera line.
Other people's comments on the F430 are that it's beautiful, wild looking, really sharp, etc., but on the CGT their comments are crazy, insane, OMG, etc. Most people to me seem to think the CGT is a more outrageous car (looks wise) than the F430.
I love both cars and enjoy the similarities as well as the differences. I do agree with you that the Ferrari 'mystique' keeps them priced well above average for new and used car prices. From what I've read, the 599 will command $75,000 or more over sticker for anyone wanting to ante up the 'moolah' for a 'new' 100-500 miles on the odometer car. BUT, it will be interesting to see if they continue to hold their prices 3-4 years after intro. I also loved the 04 575 Maranello that I sold 4 or 5 months ago but it didn't hold its price as well as the F430 is enjoying right now. So not all Ferraris necessarily command exorbitant prices for years. Just check out the Scaglietti prices! Magwheel p.s. Personally, I think the F430 is still a better looking car than the 599!
12-27-2006, 09:45 PM
#48
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by whakiewes
The CGT faces two problems that Ferrari's don't. For one, its a Porsche. Many of the people, as you all state, looking at the 300K+ price point could just about choose any car they wanted. The problem is that Ferrari's have a prestige about them that Porsches don't.
that would be true of prestige buyers only
Porsches are drivers cars first, lookers second - function over form.
the would be subjective
There is probably no Porsche post 1980 that you can hop into and not enjoy. Put a 997TT next to a F430 though and it stands no chance in the appearance catagory.
again subjective. but i think the basic 911 design is one of the most attractive of all time.
i have also come to love the unique look of the cgt.
the f430 i find less attractive than it's predecessor and the design looks to my eyes more dated than the 997's
The person buying the CGT is buying it to drive, not look at.
there is a video on youtube of a collector in europe that has had a cgt for quite some time but has yet to drive the car.
he has, however, driven many of his other cars including ferrari's
Unfortunately it takes someone with enough affluence to have a looker and a driver, or an enthusiast.
Many of the people buying these price point cars are new money (self made) and don't value the dollar vs. enjoyment factor as much. Thus they drive to the Ferrari dealer and put a deposit on the most prestigious peice they can find. People that do value the money they have/earn (typically older money) will value the driving factor, the understated looks, and the exclusivity.
this is somewhat confusing.
also it would seem to be an assumption on your part that you provide no data to back up.
i would not agree with your characterization of all nouveau riche picking ferrari.
i also do not agree with your characterization of "old money" valuing the perfomance aspects of the car more highly.
i would think it would be more dependent on what degree of an enthusiast the buyer is, as opposed to how he came into his money to make the purchase.
That brings me to my second point...exclusivity.
only your second?
this is tiring . . .
Porsche messed up as they have in the past and flooded the market. There was a point in early 2006 when you could just about find any optioned, any model car on a dealers floor.
porsche messed up all the way to becoming the most profitable automotive mfg. per many news stories.
no doubt the cgt was overbuilt but as mentioned many times b/f part of the blame rests w/ the dealers and speculators.
but thay are down to appox. ten new cgt's in u.s. dealers inventories.
As said in this thread, some cars sat and were sold for almost $100k under retail.
i personally havent heard of a single cgt selling new for 100k below retail, and i have followed the market pretty well.
they did sell cars at substancial discounts though.
i put the blame on oversupply and not the cgt itself.
Porsche saw a market, and over shot it. Ferrari (only one comparison) does not often do this.
they don't have the mfg. capacity to do it.
They lock up the market with the exclusivity, which in turn gives them a ton of power. For one, they can predict the market much better, or maybe alter it better.
how the heck can they predict the market better?
would disagree 100% w/ that statement!
what does "alter it better mean?"
Thus people are paying $50-100k over for F430's, even more for Enzo's, and 599GTB's will be a laughing stock. Simply put, you can't get a 599 without sucking some VP's dick.
silly statement but get your point that they are hard (no pun intended) to come by (again no pun intended)
Even the most produced car is sold out. They too will be sold for thousands over retail for years to come.
huh? the 430 already mentioned above is not the model w/ the highest production?
When Ferrari makes a limited production, thats what they do.
yes. they do business in an entirely different way from porsche.
Ferrari makes up the difference with first right of refusals, selected buyers, etc...
you didnt mention a difference?
Ferrari could make the F430 retail for $350k
if they did all the benefits of buying a ferrari at msrp would be gone!
ferrari's high resale based on msrp would be gone!
the waiting lists would be gone!
the mystique would be gone!
ferrari's total unit sales would trend downward at a precipitous pace!
, 599 $550k, and the Enzo 1.5 Million and people would still have the checks written before the first nut is turned.
but how many people?
Porsche doesn't have this for the most part, and hasn't built a strategy for this.
it's not their business model and it never could be for a maker w/ their production in units.
Certain cars like 993GT2's which in the US are prized gems, and abroad still carry very high values because you can't find them.
i guess that's why the carry high resale then.
The problem is Porsche has become so large (unfortunately) that selling an extra 500 cars or 1000 cars is worth losing some customer loyalty.
porsche is independent. ferrari is not.
Its a shame, and not how Ferdiand would have probably wanted it...but in a capitalist society, money talks.
what evidence do you have that it is not the way ferdinand (porsche?)
would have liked things to turn out?
the porsche/piech family still controls the company w/ 100% of the voting stock.
When my girlfriends father bought his CGT, I told him he was going to lose on it. As did he on the Mclaran SLR. There aren't enough buyers with pocket books big enough that will see the value of such cars. A Ferrari (although no better built, not really faster, not to much more exclusive) will always catch the eye first, and be the seller. Unfortunate but true.
which ferrari? compared to the cgt?
won't catch my eye first! 430 will certainly be produced in numbers that will not be exclusive.
it may be true for some but it is also not true for others.
For me, I will enjoy a CGT's overbuilt engine, understated looks, understated performance.
understated looks?
You can drive a CGT and be an elitest, but not an ******* in a Ferrari (not all ferrari owners are ********, just Ferrari dealers and the company VP's).
again, this is somewhat confusing!?
but i would certainly disagree w/ any statement that stereotypes entire groups of people.
You can own a track day, but drive home in the same car.
You can do 200mph, but cruise around at 40 at the same time.
Anyone that knows nothing about cars but wants the premium will go to Ferrari.
"knows nothing"? "premium"?
i think i know what you are trying to say, would would again disagree that people w/ little automotive knowledge would automatically prefer ferrari.
They will never step foot in a Porsche dealership.
disagree
The mind is made, and so is mine.
huh? the mind of the people that don't know anything about cars?
and you agree w/ the "knows nothing"s?
I must say though, the F430 is a hell of a car from Ferrari...a far step from the 360.
i would agree except in the looks department it's a step down in my opinion.
I can't wait to see the 599.
Wes - Doesn't own a CGT, but pulled the $20,000 door panel off of one on my first ride getting in!
that would be true of prestige buyers only
Porsches are drivers cars first, lookers second - function over form.
the would be subjective
There is probably no Porsche post 1980 that you can hop into and not enjoy. Put a 997TT next to a F430 though and it stands no chance in the appearance catagory.
again subjective. but i think the basic 911 design is one of the most attractive of all time.
i have also come to love the unique look of the cgt.
the f430 i find less attractive than it's predecessor and the design looks to my eyes more dated than the 997's
The person buying the CGT is buying it to drive, not look at.
there is a video on youtube of a collector in europe that has had a cgt for quite some time but has yet to drive the car.
he has, however, driven many of his other cars including ferrari's
Unfortunately it takes someone with enough affluence to have a looker and a driver, or an enthusiast.
Many of the people buying these price point cars are new money (self made) and don't value the dollar vs. enjoyment factor as much. Thus they drive to the Ferrari dealer and put a deposit on the most prestigious peice they can find. People that do value the money they have/earn (typically older money) will value the driving factor, the understated looks, and the exclusivity.
this is somewhat confusing.
also it would seem to be an assumption on your part that you provide no data to back up.
i would not agree with your characterization of all nouveau riche picking ferrari.
i also do not agree with your characterization of "old money" valuing the perfomance aspects of the car more highly.
i would think it would be more dependent on what degree of an enthusiast the buyer is, as opposed to how he came into his money to make the purchase.
That brings me to my second point...exclusivity.
only your second?
this is tiring . . . Porsche messed up as they have in the past and flooded the market. There was a point in early 2006 when you could just about find any optioned, any model car on a dealers floor.
porsche messed up all the way to becoming the most profitable automotive mfg. per many news stories.
no doubt the cgt was overbuilt but as mentioned many times b/f part of the blame rests w/ the dealers and speculators.
but thay are down to appox. ten new cgt's in u.s. dealers inventories.
As said in this thread, some cars sat and were sold for almost $100k under retail.
i personally havent heard of a single cgt selling new for 100k below retail, and i have followed the market pretty well.
they did sell cars at substancial discounts though.
i put the blame on oversupply and not the cgt itself.
Porsche saw a market, and over shot it. Ferrari (only one comparison) does not often do this.
they don't have the mfg. capacity to do it.
They lock up the market with the exclusivity, which in turn gives them a ton of power. For one, they can predict the market much better, or maybe alter it better.
how the heck can they predict the market better?
would disagree 100% w/ that statement!
what does "alter it better mean?"
Thus people are paying $50-100k over for F430's, even more for Enzo's, and 599GTB's will be a laughing stock. Simply put, you can't get a 599 without sucking some VP's dick.
silly statement but get your point that they are hard (no pun intended) to come by (again no pun intended)
Even the most produced car is sold out. They too will be sold for thousands over retail for years to come.
huh? the 430 already mentioned above is not the model w/ the highest production?
When Ferrari makes a limited production, thats what they do.
yes. they do business in an entirely different way from porsche.
Ferrari makes up the difference with first right of refusals, selected buyers, etc...
you didnt mention a difference?
Ferrari could make the F430 retail for $350k
if they did all the benefits of buying a ferrari at msrp would be gone!
ferrari's high resale based on msrp would be gone!
the waiting lists would be gone!
the mystique would be gone!
ferrari's total unit sales would trend downward at a precipitous pace!
, 599 $550k, and the Enzo 1.5 Million and people would still have the checks written before the first nut is turned.
but how many people?
Porsche doesn't have this for the most part, and hasn't built a strategy for this.
it's not their business model and it never could be for a maker w/ their production in units.
Certain cars like 993GT2's which in the US are prized gems, and abroad still carry very high values because you can't find them.
i guess that's why the carry high resale then.
The problem is Porsche has become so large (unfortunately) that selling an extra 500 cars or 1000 cars is worth losing some customer loyalty.
porsche is independent. ferrari is not.
Its a shame, and not how Ferdiand would have probably wanted it...but in a capitalist society, money talks.
what evidence do you have that it is not the way ferdinand (porsche?)
would have liked things to turn out?
the porsche/piech family still controls the company w/ 100% of the voting stock.
When my girlfriends father bought his CGT, I told him he was going to lose on it. As did he on the Mclaran SLR. There aren't enough buyers with pocket books big enough that will see the value of such cars. A Ferrari (although no better built, not really faster, not to much more exclusive) will always catch the eye first, and be the seller. Unfortunate but true.
which ferrari? compared to the cgt?
won't catch my eye first! 430 will certainly be produced in numbers that will not be exclusive.
it may be true for some but it is also not true for others.
For me, I will enjoy a CGT's overbuilt engine, understated looks, understated performance.
understated looks?
You can drive a CGT and be an elitest, but not an ******* in a Ferrari (not all ferrari owners are ********, just Ferrari dealers and the company VP's).
again, this is somewhat confusing!?
but i would certainly disagree w/ any statement that stereotypes entire groups of people.
You can own a track day, but drive home in the same car.
You can do 200mph, but cruise around at 40 at the same time.
Anyone that knows nothing about cars but wants the premium will go to Ferrari.
"knows nothing"? "premium"?
i think i know what you are trying to say, would would again disagree that people w/ little automotive knowledge would automatically prefer ferrari.
They will never step foot in a Porsche dealership.
disagree
The mind is made, and so is mine.
huh? the mind of the people that don't know anything about cars?
and you agree w/ the "knows nothing"s?
I must say though, the F430 is a hell of a car from Ferrari...a far step from the 360.
i would agree except in the looks department it's a step down in my opinion.
I can't wait to see the 599.
Wes - Doesn't own a CGT, but pulled the $20,000 door panel off of one on my first ride getting in!
i would disagree with that as well!
wheeeew! that was too much like work!
jeff
12-27-2006, 11:34 PM
#50
Atta Boy Jeff!
Go get um Jeff! 
BTW, did you notice that Wes looks like Bill Gates from a distance in his picture. 
Maybe it is Bill using an alias just trying to 'bust our ***!' 
BTW, did you notice that Wes looks like Bill Gates from a distance in his picture. Maybe it is Bill using an alias just trying to 'bust our ***!'
12-28-2006, 12:55 AM
#51
Instructor
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Houston
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Just was offered $350,000 NOT going to let it go.
I put it up for sale due to the new Turbo coming in and after it arrived
http://picasaweb.google.com/jenniferramani/997Turbo02 (LOVE THE COLOR)
The CGT is the masterpiece - Once you have it - YOU CAN NEVER go back.
http://picasaweb.google.com/jenniferramani/997Turbo02 (LOVE THE COLOR)
The CGT is the masterpiece - Once you have it - YOU CAN NEVER go back.
12-28-2006, 12:32 PM
#52
Jeff and others,
There was a lot of information to go through, so I will just try to clearify myself on as much as possible. First and formost, I never stated the CGT was poorly built. I did pull the door panel off, which may or may not be a defect. I have no picture data to back it up, but I would gladly give you the phone number of the owner to ask. It was a big oh **** moment. I think its a fantastically built car by all means...this is probably a one in 1000 incident.
In my short experience with Ferrari, you have pretty much one choice. You start with the car they choose, typically a F430 if you can find a dealer that feels you have the means to stay within Ferrari's elitist. Once you purchase that, the dealer and Ferrari typically state that they have the first right of refusal for the first 12 months or they won't sell you a car ever again (I.E. black listed). Second, they choose the buyers of their cars. Anyone with a check for $440,000 could walk away with a CGT. I guarantee you that unless you were in NYC or a place of the likes, you could not walk in with a $300k check and drive a 430 home. Our local Ferrari dealership got two Enzo's, a yellow one (as seen in the Car and Driver review) and a red one. Our Ferrari manager said they had over 1000 applicants (before any allocations) and Ferrari only felt two fit the profile of what they felt an Enzo owner needed to be. A fellow who has means, but more he has purchased and kept just about every model of Ferrari since 1980, plus collecting old Ferrari's. The other fellow was a first time buyer of a Ferrari and was a self made billionaire in the software industry. The other 998 people with $1m+ checks ready to sign over were told they didn't qualify. Again I can give you the phone number of atleast two of these people. Yes, there was an application process to purchase an Enzo...this you can ask your dealer about. So how does this tie into my saying Ferrari locks up the market. By selecting buyers, black listing people, and having qualifications to purchase, Ferrari enables the cars to remain valuable. Only those that are on Ferrari's good list can purchase (again, unless you are in a big volume city like NYC), so that means they typically have to go off of the good list for a second hand buyer to purchase one. The other option is the first right of refusal. Rather than privateers selling the car for $50-$100k over MSRP, the dealer does this which keeps the market rising. If every dealer is selling a 1000 mile 430 for $250k and the sticker is $185k, then its going to take a ballsy individual to try to pull the same sale. Manufacture created inflation. Porsches does not do this. They sell sell sell! Ferrari could easily add another 100k sqft. of manufacturing space, hiring 100 new people, and double the production. They choose not to. They can run on the brink of failure but keep the name as prestigious as Enzo Ferrari would have wanted it. Porsche has chose the capitalist side of the business, which has made them one of the most profitable companies. Why are they so successful and GM/Ford aren't - there are more people moving out of lower - middle classes into the upper classes and or they are surrounding themselves in more debt then they ever could before. Perfect for Porsche. Ferrari is the next step up. Owning a $185k Ferrari is completely different than ownering a $185k GT2. Add in the services and upkeep and although I have no first hand experience, I would bet if you drove and kept the car for 5 years it would be worth $250k in receipts (including the cost of the car). Completely different ownerships.
As to buying a 599GTB, prior qualification at our dealership which was said to be a Ferrari pre-req is the purchase of an F430. So yes, you can get a 599GTB if you own/ed a 360, 430, 612, whatever. If you've been blacklisted for selling your car to someone else other than Ferrari, you again can not get a 599GTB, for any money until one comes up used. Or find a dealer that will bypass Ferrari and sell you a speced F430 off the floor to get you back in the graces. Again, a way for Ferrari to lock up the market...and this and the 550/575 was what I was referring to as the most produced current Ferrari although the 360/430 might be (no statistical data).
As to the looks, feel, other people gawking, thats all personal opinion...correct. So in my experience, driving down the road in an F40 shooting flames, an F430, or a 360 Stradalle got me way more/different looks than the CGT. Other people may be different. To each there own, but I felt less elitist in the CGT, which made me feel good.
I will respond with more after work, but for now I have to head out. I can assure you that I am in no way affiliated with Bill Gates, but if he does read this and would like to make me an affiliate, please PM me.
Thanks,
Wes
There was a lot of information to go through, so I will just try to clearify myself on as much as possible. First and formost, I never stated the CGT was poorly built. I did pull the door panel off, which may or may not be a defect. I have no picture data to back it up, but I would gladly give you the phone number of the owner to ask. It was a big oh **** moment. I think its a fantastically built car by all means...this is probably a one in 1000 incident.
In my short experience with Ferrari, you have pretty much one choice. You start with the car they choose, typically a F430 if you can find a dealer that feels you have the means to stay within Ferrari's elitist. Once you purchase that, the dealer and Ferrari typically state that they have the first right of refusal for the first 12 months or they won't sell you a car ever again (I.E. black listed). Second, they choose the buyers of their cars. Anyone with a check for $440,000 could walk away with a CGT. I guarantee you that unless you were in NYC or a place of the likes, you could not walk in with a $300k check and drive a 430 home. Our local Ferrari dealership got two Enzo's, a yellow one (as seen in the Car and Driver review) and a red one. Our Ferrari manager said they had over 1000 applicants (before any allocations) and Ferrari only felt two fit the profile of what they felt an Enzo owner needed to be. A fellow who has means, but more he has purchased and kept just about every model of Ferrari since 1980, plus collecting old Ferrari's. The other fellow was a first time buyer of a Ferrari and was a self made billionaire in the software industry. The other 998 people with $1m+ checks ready to sign over were told they didn't qualify. Again I can give you the phone number of atleast two of these people. Yes, there was an application process to purchase an Enzo...this you can ask your dealer about. So how does this tie into my saying Ferrari locks up the market. By selecting buyers, black listing people, and having qualifications to purchase, Ferrari enables the cars to remain valuable. Only those that are on Ferrari's good list can purchase (again, unless you are in a big volume city like NYC), so that means they typically have to go off of the good list for a second hand buyer to purchase one. The other option is the first right of refusal. Rather than privateers selling the car for $50-$100k over MSRP, the dealer does this which keeps the market rising. If every dealer is selling a 1000 mile 430 for $250k and the sticker is $185k, then its going to take a ballsy individual to try to pull the same sale. Manufacture created inflation. Porsches does not do this. They sell sell sell! Ferrari could easily add another 100k sqft. of manufacturing space, hiring 100 new people, and double the production. They choose not to. They can run on the brink of failure but keep the name as prestigious as Enzo Ferrari would have wanted it. Porsche has chose the capitalist side of the business, which has made them one of the most profitable companies. Why are they so successful and GM/Ford aren't - there are more people moving out of lower - middle classes into the upper classes and or they are surrounding themselves in more debt then they ever could before. Perfect for Porsche. Ferrari is the next step up. Owning a $185k Ferrari is completely different than ownering a $185k GT2. Add in the services and upkeep and although I have no first hand experience, I would bet if you drove and kept the car for 5 years it would be worth $250k in receipts (including the cost of the car). Completely different ownerships.
As to buying a 599GTB, prior qualification at our dealership which was said to be a Ferrari pre-req is the purchase of an F430. So yes, you can get a 599GTB if you own/ed a 360, 430, 612, whatever. If you've been blacklisted for selling your car to someone else other than Ferrari, you again can not get a 599GTB, for any money until one comes up used. Or find a dealer that will bypass Ferrari and sell you a speced F430 off the floor to get you back in the graces. Again, a way for Ferrari to lock up the market...and this and the 550/575 was what I was referring to as the most produced current Ferrari although the 360/430 might be (no statistical data).
As to the looks, feel, other people gawking, thats all personal opinion...correct. So in my experience, driving down the road in an F40 shooting flames, an F430, or a 360 Stradalle got me way more/different looks than the CGT. Other people may be different. To each there own, but I felt less elitist in the CGT, which made me feel good.
I will respond with more after work, but for now I have to head out. I can assure you that I am in no way affiliated with Bill Gates, but if he does read this and would like to make me an affiliate, please PM me.
Thanks,
Wes
12-28-2006, 03:18 PM
#53
Wes, my main complaint with your prior post was your suggestion that Porsche is more of an enthusiast's car than Ferrari. No way to measure, I suppose, but as a percentage of total buyers, I'd imagine the poseur/enthusiast ratio is the same for both manufacturers, perhaps higher for Porsche. Truth be told, I'm not sure there's any such thing as a poseur anyway. My own observation has been that, with increasing numbers of late model cars available - including challenge cars - I think you'll see more and more Ferraris modded and tracked and raced. A PCA style club race series? Not for a long time, I suspect.
As for access to new Ferraris at MSRP, the answer is not complex, there is no magic to it - build a relationship with your dealer. I think that's what you're saying.
I'd imagine there are many, many more 8 cyl than 12 cyl cars built, I'll try to find and post the numbers for the Maranello v 360.
As for exoticness, it's hard to beat a Murci or an F40. I just can't imagine the CGT having any lowr profile, but I've never owned one - my loss. I do have a 599, prefer not to have a high profile when driving around town, and I can tell you that, to my surprise, it attracts a lot of attention.
Regards.
As for access to new Ferraris at MSRP, the answer is not complex, there is no magic to it - build a relationship with your dealer. I think that's what you're saying.
I'd imagine there are many, many more 8 cyl than 12 cyl cars built, I'll try to find and post the numbers for the Maranello v 360.
As for exoticness, it's hard to beat a Murci or an F40. I just can't imagine the CGT having any lowr profile, but I've never owned one - my loss. I do have a 599, prefer not to have a high profile when driving around town, and I can tell you that, to my surprise, it attracts a lot of attention.
Regards.
12-28-2006, 08:30 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
Excuse me for asking, but why would anybody go theru all that crap to get a Ferrari? Nice cars for sure, but still just a car. Ultimately, every new Ferrari gets sold with just a few thousand miles on the odometer, so it seems easier to just buy another great car and wait for an attractive deal. In the end, they are all just cars. For all of us, there is more than one car that can give us pleasure. Much of the "buy a 360 to get on the list" crap seems like high school all over. (got to wear a madras shirt, but don't wear yellow on Thursday). I really love cars, but not that much. AS
12-28-2006, 11:31 PM
#55
AS - You don't have to go through crap to get a high demand new Ferrari at MSRP; you need to have a relationship with a dealer. The dealers tend to favor existing good customers in allocating a scarce product. Seems reasonable to me. The practice of favoring "relationship" customers really, really ticks off guys who think that, because they can afford a new Ferrari, they're special, important folks who should get whatever they want; these people huff and puff and stamp their feet and sometimes threaten litigation. I like your attitude, which I'd translate as: it's all supposed to be about fun, and if it isn't, well, I'll do something else.
They really wear madras shirts at your high school?
jeff - I think the jury's out as to whether increased total Ferrari production will affect US allocations. Maybe a new Dino would change things. Beats me.
They really wear madras shirts at your high school?
jeff - I think the jury's out as to whether increased total Ferrari production will affect US allocations. Maybe a new Dino would change things. Beats me.
12-28-2006, 11:47 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
wch,
Yes, at the end of the Pleistocene era which coincided with my high school graduation, madras was "in" (while I, on the other hand, was "out"). There are restaurants that honor the reservations of their "good" customers before their ordinary clientele, store clerks that put aside sale merchandise for their "favorite" clients, and Ferrari dealers. On the other hand, in health care, we treat the poorest schmuck exactly like the richest.
Personally, I prefer first come, first served, as it more closely parallels "the early bird catches the worm" philosophy of my life. It seems too hard to become a preferred Ferrari customer, so I'll just have to make do with Porsche, Aston, Mercedes, Lotus, or anything else. Generally, if you"ve got cash, there is always something good to buy, and sometimes it's something someone else bought first. That doesn't hurt my feelings, but sometimes being old helps that. AS
Yes, at the end of the Pleistocene era which coincided with my high school graduation, madras was "in" (while I, on the other hand, was "out"). There are restaurants that honor the reservations of their "good" customers before their ordinary clientele, store clerks that put aside sale merchandise for their "favorite" clients, and Ferrari dealers. On the other hand, in health care, we treat the poorest schmuck exactly like the richest.
Personally, I prefer first come, first served, as it more closely parallels "the early bird catches the worm" philosophy of my life. It seems too hard to become a preferred Ferrari customer, so I'll just have to make do with Porsche, Aston, Mercedes, Lotus, or anything else. Generally, if you"ve got cash, there is always something good to buy, and sometimes it's something someone else bought first. That doesn't hurt my feelings, but sometimes being old helps that. AS
12-29-2006, 12:00 AM
#57
Have a 599?
Originally Posted by wch
I do have a 599, prefer not to have a high profile when driving around town, and I can tell you that, to my surprise, it attracts a lot of attention.
Regards.
Regards.
I thought they weren't supposed to be released until January 07 or later in the U.S.! You don't mind showing us you standing next to the car with the owners manual in hand do you? That is what I had to do on JabbasWorld to verify my ownership of the cars in my signature. If you really do own that car, I hope you won't be offended in my request. It's just that there is so many B.S.ers 
that you never know who to believe. Michael
12-29-2006, 01:02 AM
#58
Wes.... Wes.... Wes....
Originally Posted by whakiewes
Jeff and others,
In my short experience with Ferrari, you have pretty much one choice. You start with the car they choose, typically a F430 if you can find a dealer that feels you have the means to stay within Ferrari's elitist. Once you purchase that, the dealer and Ferrari typically state that they have the first right of refusal for the first 12 months or they won't sell you a car ever again (I.E. black listed). Second, they choose the buyers of their cars. Anyone with a check for $440,000 could walk away with a CGT. I guarantee you that unless you were in NYC or a place of the likes, you could not walk in with a $300k check and drive a 430 home.
Owning a $185k Ferrari is completely different than ownering a $185k GT2. Completely different ownerships.
As to buying a 599GTB, prior qualification at our dealership which was said to be a Ferrari pre-req is the purchase of an F430. So yes, you can get a 599GTB if you own/ed a 360, 430, 612, whatever.
To each there own, but I felt less elitist in the CGT, which made me feel good.
Thanks,
Wes
In my short experience with Ferrari, you have pretty much one choice. You start with the car they choose, typically a F430 if you can find a dealer that feels you have the means to stay within Ferrari's elitist. Once you purchase that, the dealer and Ferrari typically state that they have the first right of refusal for the first 12 months or they won't sell you a car ever again (I.E. black listed). Second, they choose the buyers of their cars. Anyone with a check for $440,000 could walk away with a CGT. I guarantee you that unless you were in NYC or a place of the likes, you could not walk in with a $300k check and drive a 430 home.
Owning a $185k Ferrari is completely different than ownering a $185k GT2. Completely different ownerships.
As to buying a 599GTB, prior qualification at our dealership which was said to be a Ferrari pre-req is the purchase of an F430. So yes, you can get a 599GTB if you own/ed a 360, 430, 612, whatever.
To each there own, but I felt less elitist in the CGT, which made me feel good.
Thanks,
Wes
(Just pulling your chain Wes.... don't have a 'conniption fit'!) I bought my 04 Ferrari 575 Maranello in April of 05 and my F430 in July(?) 05 and never once did I encounter them picking out the car for me or suggesting a 'right of first refusal' crap on me. The sticker on the 04 575 was $248,000 and since it was early in 05 , I was able to get them to knock $15,000 off the sticker. It was a brand new car with 117 miles on it from the dealership owner using it as a 'demo'. The F430 was another story.
After freaking out over the Maranello, I wanted a F430 real bad. So I went searching on eBay. Found a 'new' one on eBay in Arizona at a Ferrari dealer with 110 miles on her. She was being sold as a 'used' car so they could 'recalculate' the price according to market demand. The sticker was $187.000 and change. I paid $260,000 for her.
Yeah... I know..... what a dumb *** I am. BUT.... I wanted the car bad enough even knowing I was possibly being stupid with my money. Right now, the F430s on eBay are still going for great money so I won't get stroked as much as I thought I would have when I go to sell.Secondly... a good friend of mine who had bought a 360 new from his dealer here in Ohio, had a F430 Spider on order with the same dealer. When it came in, they still 'shoved it where the sun don't shine' on him. It's sticker was somewhere around $220,000 or $230,000. He wound up paying around $290,000 which I felt was still a pretty good deal since he was offered $30,000 over sticker before he even took possession of the car. Knowing a dealer doesn't necessarily mean a good deal!
Next, I don't know of or have heard of too many Ferrari dealers with 'BRAND' new F430s on their showroom floor. Most dealers had or still have 'slightly' used (100-500 mile) F430s sitting in their showroom. Just like the CGTs, if you are willing to write the check for the amount they ask, you can walk away with a F430 as easily as a CGT.
Agreed, the Enzo was a completely different story. I heard you had to own two new Ferraris before even being considered for an Enzo. Then, it was still the luck of the draw by the 'Powers to Be'!
As far as flash, I've stated this before..... every time I'm out in the CGT, it draws a little more attention than my F430. I believe it's because of the car's more radical body design. Don't get me wrong, the F430 still draws tons of attention but the CGT out does it slightly.
Part of owning ANY car is hoping that you won't see yourself going down the road. I have two Toyotas and I'm still bummed out seeing the same color car going down the road. It's not being an 'elitist'.... it's just wanting to be an individual and not like everyone else no matter what you drive.
Owning a $185k Ferrari is completely different than owning a $185k GT2. Completely different ownerships. Please explain this one. I owned a 2003 GT2 and it was a rush just like the F430 is. Sure it may not be as much as an exotic as the F430 but it still was fantastic to drive and maybe as fast or faster than the F430! Magwheel
12-29-2006, 01:03 AM
#59
wch, I do feel when regarding the CGT to other comparable Ferraris, it is more of a drivers car. In all honesty, I have seen less than a handfull of 360's or 430's that were being used for their purpose. I would say around here, its a 3:1 ratio of lookers vs. drivers with Ferrari's. I have yet to see a CGT that wasn't winding it out, that had wheels, etc... When comparing a 997 Turbo or something of that sort, the ball game changes in favor of the Ferrari. I was just speaking in regards to the CGT vs. Ferrari comparison, not Porsche vs. Ferrari.
Icon/Jeff, in short, you win. I just figure that no matter what I say you will find a negative, something wrong, etc... I will offer a little more though for you to ponder on. Ford isn't failing because America is getting richer. Ford is failing because of overused, overpowered unions. Not only does Ford and GM have to pay rediculous amounts for labor due to unions, they have to pay the union fees. Previous to 2000, unions required 10% of taxable assets. In 2000, our liberal congressman pushed to have it raised to 50% with a rise every year based on inflation. I think I have my law right and the the numbers associated. So if a company has $1m in assets, it used to pay $100k a year to unions. Post 2000 it had to pay $500k with a rise every year following. That made a $10hr employee cost about $25/hr, and so on. This was pre-9/11. There is reason so many trucking companies (which were primarely run by unions), American motor companies, and factories are all being moved overseas. They were all tied up in contracts with unions, so the only way out is to shut down and open shop elsewhere. So yes, you were correct in that what I said was a simplistic idea and was very broad. It is contributing though. As to Porsche lowering volume, etc...I think that would be a great idea. Our market favors rare and scarce items, so by limiting production you allow it (the product) to control its market. Make a good product, it will stay good and valuable. Make a bad product and it will fail. Make a lot of either good or bad product, and there is so much that those buyers can pick and choose at their price. Ferrari isn't increasing its production, its increasing it product range. Thats different. They aren't going to build another 3000 F430's, they are going to build 3000 Dino's or something of the sort to offer a lower end Ferrari to push the sales of its higher end cars. As per everything I have seen and read, Ferrari is trying to offer a $100-$150k car to push its $185k F430 to over $200k retail. Make it more profitable - of course. Will they ever sell out to the pencil pushers and capitalists, doubtfully. If it concerns you so much that I would give out individuals numbers, I would ask the consent. On the same note, if it concerns you so much as to the credibility, then assume I am lieing. You can't ever broaden your knowledge/horizons by thinking everyone is wrong/misleading/lieing. Again, you win. I just wanted to add information to my previous post to maybe help you understand better.
Making a relationship with your dealer though isn't as easy as having a big checkbook. That was what I was saying in regards to the Ferrari dealer. You can't just walk in and make that relationship. You have to qualify, fit the profile, be the elitest that Ferrari wants. No Ferrari owners past or present can really refute this. Once your in though, your golden. Ferrari wants everyones business, but they don't want car flippers, joy riders, or people who won't come back. They want to tie you in to every new Ferrari that comes out. Porsche is not like this. I could buy 12 997's, 5 997TT's, 2 CGT's, and a few Cayenne Turbo's and keep them less then a week. Porsche could care less. All they care is that you bought though 19+ cars. What you did with them after you paid them is not on the mind. I *think* this has a lot to do with the high production of the CGT. Like said...a lot of speculators, heresayers, etc... Porsche had the itch for $$ and it may or may not have worked...we will never see the numbers.
Icon/Jeff, in short, you win. I just figure that no matter what I say you will find a negative, something wrong, etc... I will offer a little more though for you to ponder on. Ford isn't failing because America is getting richer. Ford is failing because of overused, overpowered unions. Not only does Ford and GM have to pay rediculous amounts for labor due to unions, they have to pay the union fees. Previous to 2000, unions required 10% of taxable assets. In 2000, our liberal congressman pushed to have it raised to 50% with a rise every year based on inflation. I think I have my law right and the the numbers associated. So if a company has $1m in assets, it used to pay $100k a year to unions. Post 2000 it had to pay $500k with a rise every year following. That made a $10hr employee cost about $25/hr, and so on. This was pre-9/11. There is reason so many trucking companies (which were primarely run by unions), American motor companies, and factories are all being moved overseas. They were all tied up in contracts with unions, so the only way out is to shut down and open shop elsewhere. So yes, you were correct in that what I said was a simplistic idea and was very broad. It is contributing though. As to Porsche lowering volume, etc...I think that would be a great idea. Our market favors rare and scarce items, so by limiting production you allow it (the product) to control its market. Make a good product, it will stay good and valuable. Make a bad product and it will fail. Make a lot of either good or bad product, and there is so much that those buyers can pick and choose at their price. Ferrari isn't increasing its production, its increasing it product range. Thats different. They aren't going to build another 3000 F430's, they are going to build 3000 Dino's or something of the sort to offer a lower end Ferrari to push the sales of its higher end cars. As per everything I have seen and read, Ferrari is trying to offer a $100-$150k car to push its $185k F430 to over $200k retail. Make it more profitable - of course. Will they ever sell out to the pencil pushers and capitalists, doubtfully. If it concerns you so much that I would give out individuals numbers, I would ask the consent. On the same note, if it concerns you so much as to the credibility, then assume I am lieing. You can't ever broaden your knowledge/horizons by thinking everyone is wrong/misleading/lieing. Again, you win. I just wanted to add information to my previous post to maybe help you understand better.
Making a relationship with your dealer though isn't as easy as having a big checkbook. That was what I was saying in regards to the Ferrari dealer. You can't just walk in and make that relationship. You have to qualify, fit the profile, be the elitest that Ferrari wants. No Ferrari owners past or present can really refute this. Once your in though, your golden. Ferrari wants everyones business, but they don't want car flippers, joy riders, or people who won't come back. They want to tie you in to every new Ferrari that comes out. Porsche is not like this. I could buy 12 997's, 5 997TT's, 2 CGT's, and a few Cayenne Turbo's and keep them less then a week. Porsche could care less. All they care is that you bought though 19+ cars. What you did with them after you paid them is not on the mind. I *think* this has a lot to do with the high production of the CGT. Like said...a lot of speculators, heresayers, etc... Porsche had the itch for $$ and it may or may not have worked...we will never see the numbers.
12-29-2006, 01:15 AM
#60
Yikes mag, I missed your post by about .8 seconds. Maybe I need to retract my statements and refer to it as 'dealers'. Our dealer is very stingy, and blames it on Ferrari everytime. I take what I hear and pass it on. You are correct that very few dealers have new cars on the showroom floor...this is because every F430 is built to the owners specs...down the the stitching in the leather. But, I have seen a couple in NYC and Ft. Lauderdale that were brand new dealer launch cars. The suggestion that you could walk off with a F430 off the lot was incorrect, but it was used as a comparison mostly.
I think honestly you have a good relationship with Ferrari because you don't have any downsides. You buy your cars to keep and drive, as evident by your collection. Every owner that I am associated with typically don't keep the cars more than a month. I was told by the Ferrari manager at our dealership that when you purchase a new Ferrari, you are signing over to the terms for the first right of refusal and all. This was told directly to me, not through others. Many of the dealers or doing as you did, selling 100 mile cars as used to make market adjustments, bypass Ferrari's regulations, etc... I am surprised though that you walked in and purchased your 575 with that much ease. The 599 has proven damn near impossible for all my friends to get ahold of. No experience or knowledge on 550/575's to speak of. As an owner, you can definantly tell best and I respect that. Its just that my experience with Ferrari, albeit short, is not much to speak of as you have.
When I compared the GT2 to the F430, I wasn't comparing driving ideas. I was comparing costs. Purchasing a Ferrari has a lot of intrinsic costs that Porsches don't. You again could better speak of this, but my understanding is that a typical service on a 360 was no less than $2000. I haven't spoke with anyone that has had the first service done on an F430, but several 360 owners explained the cost of keeping up the 360. As to the GT2, other than occasional blown turbo's, there are really no major maintainence programs. Thus $185k you sign and drive the GT2. $185k on the F430 is just the start.
Wes
I think honestly you have a good relationship with Ferrari because you don't have any downsides. You buy your cars to keep and drive, as evident by your collection. Every owner that I am associated with typically don't keep the cars more than a month. I was told by the Ferrari manager at our dealership that when you purchase a new Ferrari, you are signing over to the terms for the first right of refusal and all. This was told directly to me, not through others. Many of the dealers or doing as you did, selling 100 mile cars as used to make market adjustments, bypass Ferrari's regulations, etc... I am surprised though that you walked in and purchased your 575 with that much ease. The 599 has proven damn near impossible for all my friends to get ahold of. No experience or knowledge on 550/575's to speak of. As an owner, you can definantly tell best and I respect that. Its just that my experience with Ferrari, albeit short, is not much to speak of as you have.
When I compared the GT2 to the F430, I wasn't comparing driving ideas. I was comparing costs. Purchasing a Ferrari has a lot of intrinsic costs that Porsches don't. You again could better speak of this, but my understanding is that a typical service on a 360 was no less than $2000. I haven't spoke with anyone that has had the first service done on an F430, but several 360 owners explained the cost of keeping up the 360. As to the GT2, other than occasional blown turbo's, there are really no major maintainence programs. Thus $185k you sign and drive the GT2. $185k on the F430 is just the start.
Wes