Carrera GT's into secondary market?
04-07-2006, 12:54 AM
#46
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Originally Posted by Les Quam
Recently I have had a few friends try to buy both new and used 2005 low mile CGTs they were not able to find the kind of deals that people claim to hear about on this forum. One offered me 365K for my car and when I said no threw in an option to buy a rare Shelby. Another friend bought a 500 mile 2005 CGT in South Florida for 380K because he couldn't do any better after searching for a no story car. So perhaps the market is already firming up or perhaps my friends are poor searchers?
Your friends are poor searchers. However, there are a group of Dealers out there who have not accepted reality. Everytime a potential buyer appears, they revert to the "greed mentality" and think they have found a "sucker" to pay sticker. Those days are long gone, and all they succeed in doing is driving away potential buyers and further depressing the market.
I read all the "wishful" thinking about this car increasing in value, but it'll happen with the GT2 long before it happens with this car, and that should be the clue (300 or so GT2s). Why? Costs outside warranty are not for the faint hearted, but for the true Porshceophile. That said, I've been wrong many times, but I've tracked the Dealer antics on this car very closely, and there would be one in my garage (and a few others I know) if they hadn't been such idiots.
04-07-2006, 01:32 AM
#47
Race Director
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
I have to hand it to Ferrari, they are very good at creating demand for their cars, some of which were not very good at all.
It really is no different than trying to get into nightclubs. Even though it may be empty, and can accommodate an influx of patrons, limiting the supply (entry) artificially increases demand and a line begins to form and that line grows if the nightclub is any good.
This is economics 101 at work. Demand and supply are always in equilibrium at a token price.
Ferrari reads the market quite well and has for years and they can get away with this tactic. General Motors could not.
Bob, how might a certifiable car nut, one who insisted on visiting the Porsche museum in Zuffenhausen, and the Ferrari museum in Maranello while on a family vacation many years ago possibly be taken for a drive in your red automobile which has a long waiting list?
04-07-2006, 01:33 AM
#48
Perception or image
Originally Posted by Hacker-Pschorr
For many reasons, performance and quality are #1 to me. If I cared about perception or image I wouldn't be into 928's.
Oh c'mon - you cannot tell me at least 50% of every new Porsche owner isn't buying the crest on the hood? There is nothing wrong with that, but it is the truth. I think most people around Rennlist are a bit abnormal - in a good way.
I agree resale is very important in autos. To some people it must not be. I mean, look at most exotic / expensive cars. Buy a $150k Benz, you will be lucky to get $90k back in two years. That does not bother a lot of people. They are paying for the privilege of driving a brand new Mercedes.
Oh c'mon - you cannot tell me at least 50% of every new Porsche owner isn't buying the crest on the hood? There is nothing wrong with that, but it is the truth. I think most people around Rennlist are a bit abnormal - in a good way.
I agree resale is very important in autos. To some people it must not be. I mean, look at most exotic / expensive cars. Buy a $150k Benz, you will be lucky to get $90k back in two years. That does not bother a lot of people. They are paying for the privilege of driving a brand new Mercedes.
Resale value..... although we think about it, I hardly believe that many 'supercar' owners worry very much about what their vehicle is going to be worth in 3-4 years! I may be wrong, but I think we all realize we're going to take a decent hit when it's time to sell or trade.
Originally Posted by Les Quam
I have been considering the purchase of a Ford GT but every friend who has bought one that I know is very unhappy with the car. Ford has confirmed the press cars had chips and pulleys which is why they had the amazing performance. My friend has owned a 2006 for three weeks now and has had a ton of problems. So many in fact Ford is sending a tech to his house to pick the car up and bring it to the dealer for all the repairs. He is a writer for a car mag so he is getting the VIP treatment. He can't even drive his GT now because there is a huge oil leak in the seals for the supercharger. This goes along with the coolant leak and the fuel leak etc. The local Ford dealer crushed the belly pan when they jacked it up on the wrong spot. All the lugnuts were loose when delivered one of the seats was loose because one of the retainers was stripped at the factory and they then just drilled a new one into the aluminum. I could go on but you get the idea. Anyway that is one big reason the cars are not holding their value.
Les, I can't believe that potential buyers are aware of all these so-called problems that keeps them from buying the car. They see the car, love it and more than likely, unfortunately have a hard time working out the financing situation. I would guess that most mechanical problems are caused by guys thrashing the s _ _ t out of their car. Just look on the Ford GT forum and you'll see how many guys are trying to pulley, chip, exhaust and track and etc. their rides. I did the same thing years ago on my Muscle cars in the late 60s and early 70s. Always seemed to regret it in the end!
I bought my CGT because it was outrageous, sounded like a F1 racecar, figured it would be hard to ever see another one around and it was fast and furious. The same goes for the Ford GT except the difference in sound. It sounds like some of my 'muscle' cars of old and I love it! Michael
04-07-2006, 01:49 AM
#49
Easier to buy a Lambo than a Ferrari?
Originally Posted by Bob Rouleau
I'm not so sure about the Lambo, in these parts you can buy one off the floor - a 430 is sold out for 4 years. The resale on the Lambo is a shock for the owner whereas the 430 command a premium.
I have to hand it to Ferrari, they are very good at creating demand for their cars, some of which were not very good at all.
Regards,
I have to hand it to Ferrari, they are very good at creating demand for their cars, some of which were not very good at all.
Regards,
A Porsche dealer in Pa. told me in October and November of 2004, Porsche dumped (delivered...... sorry!) 100-110 CGTs in the U.S. They were all over the place. When I went to buy mine in April of 2005, he did a Dealer search for me and found there were still 90-95 on the dealers floor. Whereas, he said, Ferrari trickles their cars in, thus, he feels, keeping their demand high. Michael
04-07-2006, 03:48 AM
#50
Originally Posted by Nick
Those of you who believe the CGT price will go up are smoking something.
Hacker is right. Porsche is not noted for supercars. They make a terrific midpriced sport car. The 997TT is reputed to be faster than the CGt around the Hochehiem course and will out accelerate it up to 62mph. It is priced at $120,000. The problem with the CGT is without the performance advantage, it does not have the other intangibles which will make it a very desireable car for collectors.
Hacker is right. Porsche is not noted for supercars. They make a terrific midpriced sport car. The 997TT is reputed to be faster than the CGt around the Hochehiem course and will out accelerate it up to 62mph. It is priced at $120,000. The problem with the CGT is without the performance advantage, it does not have the other intangibles which will make it a very desireable car for collectors.
You sound like you are not a "car guy". You don't think the CGT has "intangibles" to a Porsche collector? That's like saying Martha Stewart has no interest in cakes. I would rather have the CGT any day compared to any 996/7 turbo/GT2. It makes a 911 seem like a Ford Focus. It has a directness, and a sound that you simply cannot get from any car I've ever experienced, including Ferraris. In ten years, this car will be sought after, if for no other reason than it was a high-water mark for Porsche. The high price of the car creates interest of its own, and gives it an air of exclusivity.
04-07-2006, 03:54 AM
#51
Originally Posted by magwheel
Yes, it is easier to buy a Lambo than a Ferrari. Both of mine were on the showroom floor but so was my F430! Ferraris can be had, BUT at a big time premium! Mine, had only 117 miles on it. I guess the buyer didn't like it..... Yeah, right!! Again, I think most of us know the 'Ferrari game' dealers in the U.S. play. Just look on eBay and you see several F430s with 200-500 miles. All unsatisfied owners? I paid out of the wazoo for mine but it was the only way to get it without being put on the magical 'waiting list'!
A Porsche dealer in Pa. told me in October and November of 2004, Porsche dumped (delivered...... sorry!) 100-110 CGTs in the U.S. They were all over the place. When I went to buy mine in April of 2005, he did a Dealer search for me and found there were still 90-95 on the dealers floor. Whereas, he said, Ferrari trickles their cars in, thus, he feels, keeping their demand high. Michael
A Porsche dealer in Pa. told me in October and November of 2004, Porsche dumped (delivered...... sorry!) 100-110 CGTs in the U.S. They were all over the place. When I went to buy mine in April of 2005, he did a Dealer search for me and found there were still 90-95 on the dealers floor. Whereas, he said, Ferrari trickles their cars in, thus, he feels, keeping their demand high. Michael
Porsche really should learn some things from Ferrari. Mr. Wiedeking has made some bad decisions, IMO. They have diluted their brand prestige with the Cayenne badly, (first by selling an SUV, and second by making it so ugly) and they seem content to keep going. Before long, they will be like BMW.
It's sad too, because they have such good engineers, and lifetimes of racing experience.
04-07-2006, 01:07 PM
#52
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by Ray G
I agree that Porsche has fallen down somewhat, but...
You sound like you are not a "car guy". You don't think the CGT has "intangibles" to a Porsche collector? That's like saying Martha Stewart has no interest in cakes. I would rather have the CGT any day compared to any 996/7 turbo/GT2. It makes a 911 seem like a Ford Focus. It has a directness, and a sound that you simply cannot get from any car I've ever experienced, including Ferraris. In ten years, this car will be sought after, if for no other reason than it was a high-water mark for Porsche. The high price of the car creates interest of its own, and gives it an air of exclusivity.
You sound like you are not a "car guy". You don't think the CGT has "intangibles" to a Porsche collector? That's like saying Martha Stewart has no interest in cakes. I would rather have the CGT any day compared to any 996/7 turbo/GT2. It makes a 911 seem like a Ford Focus. It has a directness, and a sound that you simply cannot get from any car I've ever experienced, including Ferraris. In ten years, this car will be sought after, if for no other reason than it was a high-water mark for Porsche. The high price of the car creates interest of its own, and gives it an air of exclusivity.
I seriously considered buying the car but many factors changed my mind. The most important were thoughts from a huge "car guy" who owns over 35 cars including Porsche's, Ferrari's and others. He put a deposit down on the CGT when it was first announced. After Porsche indicated it was doubling production of the CGT "to meet demand", I was on his racing sailing boat and asked him when he was going to take delivery of the CGT. He told me he cancelled his order because of the increase in production. To quote him" Porsche just killed it".
Like you and I, he is disenchanted with Porsche direction. We all agree they make fine cars but the relationship is one-sided. it is all about Porsche and not about the customer. That philosophy will haunt Porsche and its products going forward. Many are taking notice.
04-07-2006, 02:08 PM
#53
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Porsche Pricing
My $0.02 and probably worth less. 
Another way to look at Porsche's image from an ownership perspective: they act like a typical public company, trying to meet earnings, profitability, revenue growth and # of units sold targets. Increases in #s is their goal, as well as reductions in operating costs/increased production efficiencies (why are so many Porsche parts the same between cars), irrespective of what it may do to the ownership experience. They can't hide behind a bigger company with diversified operating units. IMHO, the CGT was an anomoly in that public-company thought process; producing custom suits with an "off the rack" pricing and profitability philosophy. Didn't work with the GT-2 either. Dealer's clearly couldn't adjust to this change up in philosophy and have been reluctant to be "market driven".
Ferrari, on the other hand, is a small company in an overall conglomerate (Fiat) whereby contribution margins by Ferrari are likely small compared to the consolidated entity. As such, Ferrari's production volumes, revenue growth, profitability are not at the forefront of investor's concerns and one could argue that the marquee helps the overall image and brand of Fiat. Ferrari could conceivably be less noticeable and hide behind the parent. Probably why the secret "Ferrari customer list" exists and why dealers can play games with customers. That could change however, if they decide to spin Ferrari off as its own separate entity. If so, one would reasonably expect that production/sales would ramp up to push valuations and that prices of the cars would be more competitive and access to customers better.
Hard to truly imagine that Porsche will build (or could economically justify) a high-tech, specialized vehicle like the CGT in the near future. If history is any lesson, the run with the CGT could hardly be considered a stellar success, at least as far as profitability is concerned. Same could be said for Mercedes and the SLR.
It will be interesting to follow the Ferrari vs. Porsche customer loyalty/relative pricing differences over the next many years. If Ferrari were in fact to go public as a separate entity, ala Porsche, wouldn't production levels of 430s and the like suddenly increase? If Porsche continues to stay mainstream (no more CGTs), could it make cars like the CGT, GT-2 and 959 that much more collectible?
Lastly, I really wish Porsche and Mercedes were in fact more concerned and sensitive to the ownership experience; while it seems as though this entire Forum represents true, loyal and dedicated Porsche afficianados, I would imagine that the water cooled section of the Forums would not rate Porsche high for value retention. Hard to swallow (or rationalize) a 20 to 30 per cent hit on MSRP after the first one to two years.
Another way to look at Porsche's image from an ownership perspective: they act like a typical public company, trying to meet earnings, profitability, revenue growth and # of units sold targets. Increases in #s is their goal, as well as reductions in operating costs/increased production efficiencies (why are so many Porsche parts the same between cars), irrespective of what it may do to the ownership experience. They can't hide behind a bigger company with diversified operating units. IMHO, the CGT was an anomoly in that public-company thought process; producing custom suits with an "off the rack" pricing and profitability philosophy. Didn't work with the GT-2 either. Dealer's clearly couldn't adjust to this change up in philosophy and have been reluctant to be "market driven".
Ferrari, on the other hand, is a small company in an overall conglomerate (Fiat) whereby contribution margins by Ferrari are likely small compared to the consolidated entity. As such, Ferrari's production volumes, revenue growth, profitability are not at the forefront of investor's concerns and one could argue that the marquee helps the overall image and brand of Fiat. Ferrari could conceivably be less noticeable and hide behind the parent. Probably why the secret "Ferrari customer list" exists and why dealers can play games with customers. That could change however, if they decide to spin Ferrari off as its own separate entity. If so, one would reasonably expect that production/sales would ramp up to push valuations and that prices of the cars would be more competitive and access to customers better.
Hard to truly imagine that Porsche will build (or could economically justify) a high-tech, specialized vehicle like the CGT in the near future. If history is any lesson, the run with the CGT could hardly be considered a stellar success, at least as far as profitability is concerned. Same could be said for Mercedes and the SLR.
It will be interesting to follow the Ferrari vs. Porsche customer loyalty/relative pricing differences over the next many years. If Ferrari were in fact to go public as a separate entity, ala Porsche, wouldn't production levels of 430s and the like suddenly increase? If Porsche continues to stay mainstream (no more CGTs), could it make cars like the CGT, GT-2 and 959 that much more collectible?
Lastly, I really wish Porsche and Mercedes were in fact more concerned and sensitive to the ownership experience; while it seems as though this entire Forum represents true, loyal and dedicated Porsche afficianados, I would imagine that the water cooled section of the Forums would not rate Porsche high for value retention. Hard to swallow (or rationalize) a 20 to 30 per cent hit on MSRP after the first one to two years.
04-07-2006, 03:51 PM
#54
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You two Ford Gt owners are the first two owners I have ever spoken with albeit electronically not having problems with your Ford GTs or unhappy with the performance. Another friend who owns a Ford dealership down south told me all four Ford GTs he sold had problems one didn't even make it home from the dealership because it broke down. He also told me that all four guys were unhappy with the lack of power. If I hadn't heard these things and saw the early ones at my local Ford dealership being torn apart as they replaced the control arms I would own one by now.
My friend who bought the 2006 three weeks ago didn't thrash it all and I was hoping he would have a trouble free ownership experience because I was going to buy a white/blue stripe 06 since I bleed blue oval blue and figured all the problems had been worked out. He is also a Porsche DE instructor and a car collector and he was also pretty unhappy with the lack of power compared to what he had read and anitcipated. I am simply not going to spend 150K and hope my local Ford dealer can keep this car running properly. A 150K roll of the dice is too steep for my blood. I don't have my friends VIP connections where I can call an executive at Ford and get a tech to come to my house and pick the car up and repair it.
Word of mouth is a powerful thing.
Colm,
If you know of any new or used low mile 2005 CGTs at the kind of prices thrown around on this forum let me know I have two friends still looking. My local dealer has two but like your experiences they are impossible to talk too.Thanks.
My friend who bought the 2006 three weeks ago didn't thrash it all and I was hoping he would have a trouble free ownership experience because I was going to buy a white/blue stripe 06 since I bleed blue oval blue and figured all the problems had been worked out. He is also a Porsche DE instructor and a car collector and he was also pretty unhappy with the lack of power compared to what he had read and anitcipated. I am simply not going to spend 150K and hope my local Ford dealer can keep this car running properly. A 150K roll of the dice is too steep for my blood. I don't have my friends VIP connections where I can call an executive at Ford and get a tech to come to my house and pick the car up and repair it.
Word of mouth is a powerful thing.
Colm,
If you know of any new or used low mile 2005 CGTs at the kind of prices thrown around on this forum let me know I have two friends still looking. My local dealer has two but like your experiences they are impossible to talk too.Thanks.
04-07-2006, 04:25 PM
#55
Originally Posted by Nick
Ray, I truly hope the CGT price will rise. I do not want to see any car enthusiast lose money particularly those that post on this board. I know many of you are angry about my posts but when I feel I must speak out I do. Because most of my posts are negative about the CGT does not mean I am not a car guy.
I seriously considered buying the car but many factors changed my mind. The most important were thoughts from a huge "car guy" who owns over 35 cars including Porsche's, Ferrari's and others. He put a deposit down on the CGT when it was first announced. After Porsche indicated it was doubling production of the CGT "to meet demand", I was on his racing sailing boat and asked him when he was going to take delivery of the CGT. He told me he cancelled his order because of the increase in production. To quote him" Porsche just killed it".
Like you and I, he is disenchanted with Porsche direction. We all agree they make fine cars but the relationship is one-sided. it is all about Porsche and not about the customer. That philosophy will haunt Porsche and its products going forward. Many are taking notice.
I seriously considered buying the car but many factors changed my mind. The most important were thoughts from a huge "car guy" who owns over 35 cars including Porsche's, Ferrari's and others. He put a deposit down on the CGT when it was first announced. After Porsche indicated it was doubling production of the CGT "to meet demand", I was on his racing sailing boat and asked him when he was going to take delivery of the CGT. He told me he cancelled his order because of the increase in production. To quote him" Porsche just killed it".
Like you and I, he is disenchanted with Porsche direction. We all agree they make fine cars but the relationship is one-sided. it is all about Porsche and not about the customer. That philosophy will haunt Porsche and its products going forward. Many are taking notice.
thusly, I agree with your interesting $.02. I think Porsche would be more interesting if it were a small independent division of a larger company (like Ferrari); they could stay true to their core competencies: sports cars and racing. As it is now, they are beholden to stock holders. If they keep going, they are going to be only a fashion-plate like Jag.
Sadly, the era of small focused car companies is probably over. We are just all just dreaming that Porsche is so special. The CGT at least breaks the recent mould of volume-production cars.
But on the happy side, there are some very fun P cars to drive. The new GT3 looks great, even if rounded-off a bit.
04-07-2006, 04:34 PM
#56
Still plays with cars.
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I think some are being a little hard on PAG. Yes they built an SUV, so did Lambo by the way. The SUV was a must because Porsche was obliged to have its own showrooms. In many areas, Porsche sales are next to zero in the winter. In the old days, the dealer could sell Audis (usually) to keep things running. The SUV made a lot of money for the company when car sales slumped near the end of the 996 model run.
On the other hand, PAG gave us the GT3 a true hard core sports car - a first for North America; traditionally the really good sports cars (the RS for example) were ROW only. I don't care that Porsche may soften up certain models to appeal to a broader market as long as they continue to cater to the enthusiast market.
Rgds,
On the other hand, PAG gave us the GT3 a true hard core sports car - a first for North America; traditionally the really good sports cars (the RS for example) were ROW only. I don't care that Porsche may soften up certain models to appeal to a broader market as long as they continue to cater to the enthusiast market.
Rgds,
04-07-2006, 05:01 PM
#57
Three Wheelin'
Originally Posted by Les Quam
Colm,
If you know of any new or used low mile 2005 CGTs at the kind of prices thrown around on this forum let me know I have two friends still looking. My local dealer has two but like your experiences they are impossible to talk too.Thanks.
If you know of any new or used low mile 2005 CGTs at the kind of prices thrown around on this forum let me know I have two friends still looking. My local dealer has two but like your experiences they are impossible to talk too.Thanks.
you keep mentioning cgt prices "thrown around on this forum" but i did give you the email address of a dealer that would sell at dealer less holdback.
i imagine if someone were to wave a cash offer at them they would certainly listen. he claims not to have heard from anyone using me a reference.
04-07-2006, 06:16 PM
#59
Huh
Originally Posted by Les Quam
You two Ford Gt owners are the first two owners I have ever spoken with albeit electronically not having problems with your Ford GTs or unhappy with the performance. Another friend who owns a Ford dealership down south told me all four Ford GTs he sold had problems one didn't even make it home from the dealership because it broke down. He also told me that all four guys were unhappy with the lack of power. If I hadn't heard these things and saw the early ones at my local Ford dealership being torn apart as they replaced the control arms I would own one by now.
Les.... R U KIDDIN? The only way I feel that they could be unhappy with the power is if they were the pilots of the 'Blue Angels' and had just stepped out of the cockpit! You sure those four GTs had their tires on? Seriously, I can't believe someone is complaining about power. My GT has all the power I need and then some and I'm sure mine isn't the only one that's OK. Even though Jeremy Clarson had some troubles with his personal car, he still bragged about it in the video on, I think, Top Gear. He was even laughing (with excitement) at how much power it had. If you friends have Enzos or Zonda Fs, then I fully understand their comments on being 'slightly' underpowered. Michael
04-08-2006, 01:39 AM
#60
Instructor
Thread Starter
I'm still considering a Carrera GT, and trying to watch the market. I have not driven one yet, so I cannot compare directly to my Ford GT.
I managed to show enough restraint to get my Ford GT for sticker last year, and my only regret is that I didn't pay more and get it sooner! The car is absolutely fabulous! No issues whatsover, and all the power you could want. The only rap on the car is that it is probably a little heavy as someone here stated, and it is not the visceral track tool that a Ferrari Challenge or Porsche GT3 is. In my experience all the horror stories on the Ford GT are completely undeserved. It is a great car.
Hopefully I'll be able to directly compare to a Carrera GT soon enough.
Mark
Les.... R U KIDDIN? The only way I feel that they could be unhappy with the power is if they were the pilots of the 'Blue Angels' and had just stepped out of the cockpit! You sure those four GTs had their tires on? Seriously, I can't believe someone is complaining about power. My GT has all the power I need and then some and I'm sure mine isn't the only one that's OK. Even though Jeremy Clarson had some troubles with his personal car, he still bragged about it in the video on, I think, Top Gear. He was even laughing (with excitement) at how much power it had. If you friends have Enzos or Zonda Fs, then I fully understand their comments on being 'slightly' underpowered. Michael
I managed to show enough restraint to get my Ford GT for sticker last year, and my only regret is that I didn't pay more and get it sooner! The car is absolutely fabulous! No issues whatsover, and all the power you could want. The only rap on the car is that it is probably a little heavy as someone here stated, and it is not the visceral track tool that a Ferrari Challenge or Porsche GT3 is. In my experience all the horror stories on the Ford GT are completely undeserved. It is a great car.
Hopefully I'll be able to directly compare to a Carrera GT soon enough.
Mark
Originally Posted by magwheel
Les.... R U KIDDIN? The only way I feel that they could be unhappy with the power is if they were the pilots of the 'Blue Angels' and had just stepped out of the cockpit! You sure those four GTs had their tires on? Seriously, I can't believe someone is complaining about power. My GT has all the power I need and then some and I'm sure mine isn't the only one that's OK. Even though Jeremy Clarson had some troubles with his personal car, he still bragged about it in the video on, I think, Top Gear. He was even laughing (with excitement) at how much power it had. If you friends have Enzos or Zonda Fs, then I fully understand their comments on being 'slightly' underpowered. Michael