Why are so many CGT's crashing?
02-10-2006, 06:10 PM
#1
Team Owner
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Why are so many CGT's crashing?
Hi Guys
I am not here to flame but to just ask a question. I first heard about the Benjamin Miles Keaton accident, then I heard about the Jay Leno incident, and now all over the net I am reading that these things are crashing everywhere. Is this just perception? . I logged on to ask those in the "know" and then saw the thread that was there already about the number of crashes. Do you guys think Porsche will ever admit to a design flaw ? Just wait until Ralph Nader hears about all this !!
I would LOVe to see some real data about how many have been built and how many have been crashed. I am sure the ratio would be high , even by high performance machine standards. I would appreciate any feedback either agreeing or disagreeing .
Thanks guys
ice
I am not here to flame but to just ask a question. I first heard about the Benjamin Miles Keaton accident, then I heard about the Jay Leno incident, and now all over the net I am reading that these things are crashing everywhere. Is this just perception? . I logged on to ask those in the "know" and then saw the thread that was there already about the number of crashes. Do you guys think Porsche will ever admit to a design flaw ? Just wait until Ralph Nader hears about all this !!
I would LOVe to see some real data about how many have been built and how many have been crashed. I am sure the ratio would be high , even by high performance machine standards. I would appreciate any feedback either agreeing or disagreeing .
Thanks guys
ice
02-10-2006, 06:59 PM
#2
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I'm not sure anyone would (I don't) consider 5 or 6 crashed cars out of 1000 "many"? The CGT is nearly a half million dollar car so every accident involving one will be sensationalized on the internet.
02-10-2006, 08:51 PM
#3
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Originally Posted by icon
and a third the guy had just picked the car up from the dealer on lease.
Wow, you can lease this car! Ever more, people lease this car???
02-10-2006, 11:58 PM
#4
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A couple of the accidents I have seen the CGT was rear ended, this normally isn't the fault of the CGT's driver.
There are already a bunch of posts about people who feel the car is dangerous, if you notice the people posting this aren't owners and some of them have never even been in a CGT.
As with any hyper-performance car you can get into trouble really quick if you don't give the car the respect it deserves.
Personally I find the car to be very easy to drive, but I haven't pushed the car to its limits and probably never will.
There are already a bunch of posts about people who feel the car is dangerous, if you notice the people posting this aren't owners and some of them have never even been in a CGT.
As with any hyper-performance car you can get into trouble really quick if you don't give the car the respect it deserves.
Personally I find the car to be very easy to drive, but I haven't pushed the car to its limits and probably never will.
02-11-2006, 02:48 AM
#5
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heard first is a little tricky 
lol
seriously though, just people sensationalizing it
and sure you can lease it. and sure they do, when it gets to be the not so popular thing in a few years they'll get something else
lol
seriously though, just people sensationalizing it
and sure you can lease it. and sure they do, when it gets to be the not so popular thing in a few years they'll get something else
02-11-2006, 03:21 PM
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Iceman.
Porsche need not admit to a handling design flaw since none exists in regard to the CGT.
The CGT is a 600 HP 3100 pound car with little or no computer driver aids one might find on a Ferrrai. Therefore it is necesary for the CGT driver to have a certain amount of skill in order to drive the car safely. Obviously more skill is needed when driving a CGT on a track or street when the driver exceeds 150 MPH. The skill needed to safely and competently drive a CGT at speed comes from attending a racing school and participating in a subsequent racing series such as Barber Dodge or Jim Russell or from other actual racing experience like one might obtain in SCCA type programs.
The CGT is a pure drivers car and is not for everyone nor was it designed for everyone. Porsche still builds cars that require a driver to appreciate the art of driving and have skills that allow the driver to interact with their cars. Ferrari builds easier cars to drive that are truly tremendous cars and appeal to a wider range of driving enthusiast skill levels.
The "incidents" you mention were not caused by a CGT handling flaw or design flaw. In Ben's case another car pulled out directly in front of him on the race track and he didn't have the experience and skills to safely cope with the situation. From what I have been told from people present at the track that day it would have taken a great deal of experience to safely resolve the problem he was dealt in the time he had to deal with it.
The Leno matter is simply ridiculous. He claims that he was just driving down the straight at over 150 MPH when he ever so gently lifted off the throttle and the car spun on him. I have driven some of the worst handling turdbox racecars on banking at over 180 MPH and never have I had an experience where a simple straight line weight shift caused by letting off the throttle caused the car to spin. Leno must have done something else to the car that he doesn't realize to cause the CGT to spin on the straight. I spun a Barber Dodge Formula car down the straight at Laguna Seca as I entered turn one in the wet but it was because the car got a little air and water under it and I ever so slightly moved the steering wheel which caused the spin. IMHO cars don't spin going down a straight when you let off the throttle unless the driver inputs something else into the equation. Simple straight line weight shifts don't cause spins even in the worst handling cars.
I still haven't heard one negative opinion from a CGT owner with some driving experience regarding the CGTs handling capablities not a one.
The opinion that the CGT has some aerodynamic or suspension design flaw is simply unsupported by any evidence or data. And if you are concerned about the volume of CGT incidents just wait until the new 700 HP no computer driver aided Viper comes out and the 600HP blue devil Corvette arrives.
Porsche need not admit to a handling design flaw since none exists in regard to the CGT.
The CGT is a 600 HP 3100 pound car with little or no computer driver aids one might find on a Ferrrai. Therefore it is necesary for the CGT driver to have a certain amount of skill in order to drive the car safely. Obviously more skill is needed when driving a CGT on a track or street when the driver exceeds 150 MPH. The skill needed to safely and competently drive a CGT at speed comes from attending a racing school and participating in a subsequent racing series such as Barber Dodge or Jim Russell or from other actual racing experience like one might obtain in SCCA type programs.
The CGT is a pure drivers car and is not for everyone nor was it designed for everyone. Porsche still builds cars that require a driver to appreciate the art of driving and have skills that allow the driver to interact with their cars. Ferrari builds easier cars to drive that are truly tremendous cars and appeal to a wider range of driving enthusiast skill levels.
The "incidents" you mention were not caused by a CGT handling flaw or design flaw. In Ben's case another car pulled out directly in front of him on the race track and he didn't have the experience and skills to safely cope with the situation. From what I have been told from people present at the track that day it would have taken a great deal of experience to safely resolve the problem he was dealt in the time he had to deal with it.
The Leno matter is simply ridiculous. He claims that he was just driving down the straight at over 150 MPH when he ever so gently lifted off the throttle and the car spun on him. I have driven some of the worst handling turdbox racecars on banking at over 180 MPH and never have I had an experience where a simple straight line weight shift caused by letting off the throttle caused the car to spin. Leno must have done something else to the car that he doesn't realize to cause the CGT to spin on the straight. I spun a Barber Dodge Formula car down the straight at Laguna Seca as I entered turn one in the wet but it was because the car got a little air and water under it and I ever so slightly moved the steering wheel which caused the spin. IMHO cars don't spin going down a straight when you let off the throttle unless the driver inputs something else into the equation. Simple straight line weight shifts don't cause spins even in the worst handling cars.
I still haven't heard one negative opinion from a CGT owner with some driving experience regarding the CGTs handling capablities not a one.
The opinion that the CGT has some aerodynamic or suspension design flaw is simply unsupported by any evidence or data. And if you are concerned about the volume of CGT incidents just wait until the new 700 HP no computer driver aided Viper comes out and the 600HP blue devil Corvette arrives.
02-11-2006, 05:15 PM
#7
Team Owner
Thread Starter
Hey Guys
Who cares about the viper it's just a chrysler. as long as no one gets urt is all. I was just wondering as I had just heard of the "incidents". Even the STIG had a tough time with her ( from top gear ) but don't get me wrong the TOP GEAR guys loved it ( check out google video ) . They cetainly did support your theory however that it is like driving on a knife edge ... the guy even said " you need 2 brains to drive this thing but if you put the efort in . it is definitely worth it " .
Since I barely qualify for even one brain , I think I 'll stick to my 78 Targa.
Cheers Lads.
Who cares about the viper it's just a chrysler. as long as no one gets urt is all. I was just wondering as I had just heard of the "incidents". Even the STIG had a tough time with her ( from top gear ) but don't get me wrong the TOP GEAR guys loved it ( check out google video ) . They cetainly did support your theory however that it is like driving on a knife edge ... the guy even said " you need 2 brains to drive this thing but if you put the efort in . it is definitely worth it " .
Since I barely qualify for even one brain , I think I 'll stick to my 78 Targa.
Cheers Lads.
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02-11-2006, 09:40 PM
#8
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I do not own a CGT but I tell you these incidents are driver ignorance/inexperience. Jay Leno's story is BS. Just let off the throttle and it became tail happy...Get real Jay or drive a Pinto(oops I hope I did not offend anyone).
02-11-2006, 10:19 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
Leno was in the process of breaking a world record..... going faster then a NASCAR in a production car and learning how to drive on a banked track.
I ran on a track here in Seattle with a guy who has a CGT. I always look forward to the next time he laps me because his car sounds so cool. In his hands it is fast and stable. Like anything one must learn the car.
I ran on a track here in Seattle with a guy who has a CGT. I always look forward to the next time he laps me because his car sounds so cool. In his hands it is fast and stable. Like anything one must learn the car.
02-11-2006, 10:25 PM
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I am a huge Leno fan and really admire the fact that he is a consumate car guy and collector I even have a subscription to popular mechanics wherein he writes an article each month and I enjoy it very much because he is a throwback to a time when guys liked cars because they didn't have computer aids and you had to interact with them to enjoy them. I think Leno is quoted as saying he likes his CGT because he already has one mother and doesn't need one when he drives his supercar.
But being a mechanic collector consumate car guy like Leno doesn't give you the seat time and experience to drive a CGT at 180 MPH safely? In order to drive the CGT or for that matter any car on a track at 150 MPH plus safely and compentently enough to handle a highly dangerous situation like the one Ben faced takes lots of seat time.
And that(seat time) is really the key element of the CGT unlike most Ferrrai's which downshift for you and have extensive traction control and therefore require less seat time mastering the ability to downshift properly and car control technique the CGT requires experience to drive safely at speed and experience requires time. Most people with the discretionary income to afford a CGT or Enzo don't also seem to have the time to obtain the necessary seat time to drive them on a track at speed with any sort of skill. IMHO
I also have observed that most Porsche dealers fail to tell potential buyers how much experience is necessary to safely drive a CGT at speed and my local dealer recently sold a CGT to a buyer who could not drive a manual trans as most of his supercar driving experience had come in paddle shift Ferrari's. I think if Porsche has any culpability it is in that regard not in the sense the CGT has a design flaw. I was impressed with Pioneer Porsche in SD where my salesman Chris Huck did a thorough analysis of my prior driving experience before he sold me my CGT. He was genuinely concerned about my safety and enjoyment of the car or wanted to make sure he had a repeat customer? LOL
But being a mechanic collector consumate car guy like Leno doesn't give you the seat time and experience to drive a CGT at 180 MPH safely? In order to drive the CGT or for that matter any car on a track at 150 MPH plus safely and compentently enough to handle a highly dangerous situation like the one Ben faced takes lots of seat time.
And that(seat time) is really the key element of the CGT unlike most Ferrrai's which downshift for you and have extensive traction control and therefore require less seat time mastering the ability to downshift properly and car control technique the CGT requires experience to drive safely at speed and experience requires time. Most people with the discretionary income to afford a CGT or Enzo don't also seem to have the time to obtain the necessary seat time to drive them on a track at speed with any sort of skill. IMHO
I also have observed that most Porsche dealers fail to tell potential buyers how much experience is necessary to safely drive a CGT at speed and my local dealer recently sold a CGT to a buyer who could not drive a manual trans as most of his supercar driving experience had come in paddle shift Ferrari's. I think if Porsche has any culpability it is in that regard not in the sense the CGT has a design flaw. I was impressed with Pioneer Porsche in SD where my salesman Chris Huck did a thorough analysis of my prior driving experience before he sold me my CGT. He was genuinely concerned about my safety and enjoyment of the car or wanted to make sure he had a repeat customer? LOL
02-11-2006, 10:33 PM
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I fully agree.
I use the following scenario.
4 year old with first a straw and then a baseball bat.
Ask him to topple a glass vase with the straw and then with a baseball bat. When do you think the vase gets shattered?. Keep teaching him/her this for 2 years and Presto the bat does not destroy the vase anymore but topples it over quicker than the straw. Did you ever drive a 930 Turbo and the rear got away from you?. This is the design and if you do not have the know-how to drive it fast it is not considered a design flaw but a driver flaw.
Get with the program and live with it.
I use the following scenario.
4 year old with first a straw and then a baseball bat.
Ask him to topple a glass vase with the straw and then with a baseball bat. When do you think the vase gets shattered?. Keep teaching him/her this for 2 years and Presto the bat does not destroy the vase anymore but topples it over quicker than the straw. Did you ever drive a 930 Turbo and the rear got away from you?. This is the design and if you do not have the know-how to drive it fast it is not considered a design flaw but a driver flaw.
Get with the program and live with it.
02-11-2006, 10:46 PM
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Les, I have one problem with your statement.
>>I also have observed that most Porsche dealers fail to tell potential buyers how much experience is necessary to safely drive a CGT at speed and my local dealer recently sold a CGT to a buyer who could not drive a manual trans as most of his supercar driving experience had come in paddle shift <<
We are all grown men and when you deal with this type of high performance you know what you are getting into. Don't play ignorant and blame the dealer. You know what you got and you better know how to deal with it. Why else buy this performance?. Or how else did you make your money.. If you can afford a CGT you are not stupid in money matters but you are stupid in car matters. Give me a break.
>>I also have observed that most Porsche dealers fail to tell potential buyers how much experience is necessary to safely drive a CGT at speed and my local dealer recently sold a CGT to a buyer who could not drive a manual trans as most of his supercar driving experience had come in paddle shift <<
We are all grown men and when you deal with this type of high performance you know what you are getting into. Don't play ignorant and blame the dealer. You know what you got and you better know how to deal with it. Why else buy this performance?. Or how else did you make your money.. If you can afford a CGT you are not stupid in money matters but you are stupid in car matters. Give me a break.
02-11-2006, 11:16 PM
#13
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complaining about Leno's driving
If the Learning Channel (TLC) show Rides featuring Jay Leno in the CGT at Talladega is ever on again you guys should watch it 
Leno goes flying by pit out and offscreen and then you here the skidding and see everyone running. The skidmarks (If I remember correctly) were on the short straight.
Leno goes flying by pit out and offscreen and then you here the skidding and see everyone running. The skidmarks (If I remember correctly) were on the short straight.
02-12-2006, 12:34 AM
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deons,
I definitely see your point about buyers being grown ups and capable of making thier own decisions. But I wonder if a more responsible dealer would have told the guy who couldn't drive a manual trans that perhaps the CGT was not the car for him that perhaps a turbo tiptronic was a better car for him?
Perhaps the dealer had some moral responsiblity to provide the buyer with the names of some driving schools and to mention that at 600 HP the car was capable of getting away from him in an instant? I don't know? But if I was selling Porsche's I would have walked away from that deal as silly as that may sound?
From my observations most people interested in owning a CGT have asked me if the clutch was as difficult as they have read or heard about. In other words they didn't want to embarrass themselves in front of their friends by stalling the car as opposed to whetherit is difficult it was to drive at speed. Iceman's sensible query was the exception from my experience.
I definitely see your point about buyers being grown ups and capable of making thier own decisions. But I wonder if a more responsible dealer would have told the guy who couldn't drive a manual trans that perhaps the CGT was not the car for him that perhaps a turbo tiptronic was a better car for him?
Perhaps the dealer had some moral responsiblity to provide the buyer with the names of some driving schools and to mention that at 600 HP the car was capable of getting away from him in an instant? I don't know? But if I was selling Porsche's I would have walked away from that deal as silly as that may sound?
From my observations most people interested in owning a CGT have asked me if the clutch was as difficult as they have read or heard about. In other words they didn't want to embarrass themselves in front of their friends by stalling the car as opposed to whetherit is difficult it was to drive at speed. Iceman's sensible query was the exception from my experience.