MANUAL

AS,

Thank you for replying. Your apology is generous but unacceptable, sir, as I, for one, took no offense and I believe a civilized debate requires contention like combustion requires fuel.

Now I understand. And you are correct, the CGT does not have it.

What is your source that the Enzo has this feature? In the past, I have searched the web and found articles that say the Enzo has ASR, which is a form of Ferrari traction control, but no CST which is Ferrari's stability control.

Even when the steering is pointed ahead, maybe a quarter of an inch is enough...

Jay Leno in an article (http://www.popularmechanics.com/auto...l?page=2&c=y):

For years I've heard racers say, "Don't get off the throttle too quickly going into a corner or the back end will come around." I was on the straightest part of the track, and I had just passed the time traps. As I went through, I lifted my foot maybe a quarter of an inch, to slow down. And just as I lifted, the back of the car whipped around. Uh-oh. You think: So that's what those race car drivers were talking about. I spun five times...

Roland Kussmaul said the dual-compound wet/dry competition design of the Michelin Pilot Sport 2 "needs to be brought up to temperature to deliver" However the car's tire pressure system does not tell the driver when the tires are too cold or too hot. As a result of this missing feature, in the GT Purely Porsche magazine October 2005 issue, Ton Roks drives the CGT over the Targa Florio route on a hot day in Sicily:

Because of the heat of the asphalt the rear tyres are quickly up to temperature, and because of the dozens of eruptions of flat-out acceleration they're stoked up even further, without sufficiently realising that I am destroying them more or less. The Carrera GT catapults itself from apex to apex with such treacherous ease.

But then, suddenly it happens. The Michelins have begun to blister, a phenomenon that manifests itself suddenly in a long bend. A second after I have committed myself to the corner, the rear begins its break away, but fortunately a little sluggishly and lazily, thanks to which -- despite a moment of fear -- the opposite lock can be applied. I have learned my lesson.

If 15 inches is a significant difference over the 13.2 inch tire, I assume 17 inch offers significantly more grip, correct? So if the car could accomodate either 15 or 17 inch tires, which would you choose?

As did mine.

I did not know that.

Having never driven one and judging from the fact that Walter Rohrl's face was reportedly ashen after driving the CGT fast in the rain, I would venture to say it is a handful without TC and enough tire tread depth.

1AS

Manual,
Re Enzo: I was referencing an article in which Michael Schumacher advised never turning off the stability system. I inferred skid control, but that might have been a wrong assumption. It sounds like you have more definite information.
The problem with wider rear tires is the need for wider fronts ( and the need to steer really limits that, as the suspension and wheel wells must accomodate), and the way super wide tires follow each irregularity in the road. My suspicion is that most of these shunts are caused by loss of rear grip, so increasing that in increments might work.
Porsche began going in the direction of limiting trailing throttle oversteer with the early 930's. The tire sizes now strongly favor understeer, with rear grip exceeding front. Most drivers are much more comfortable with understeer.
Leno's comment is interesting, because a quarter inch of throttle lift isn't very much. It's about what seems right for adjusting attitude in a corner. I'll look forward to my first opportunity to drive a CGT to understand if it's that sensitive. AS

fayence

It's definitely sensitive. I was on my last lap a few weeks ago on the track, the straight before the turn i had hit about 120 all day. For this last lap, i just went to about 80. i break and start to turn in, i feel that i'm a bit too tight and just ever so slightly lift off the gas -- ooops -- off I go into the dirt and end up rolling backwards back onto the track.

My lesson, even going slower where I thought that lifting wouldn't have much of an impact, that mid-engined car loves to spin around, and it showed me.

Greg A

Manual & AS,

The Enzo does not have CST.

Greg A

1AS

Greg, thanks
Fayence, That's pretty sensitive. Seems like a problem if you enter a corner, and the guy in front of you slows. Corvette guys have done that to 911 racers by intentionally checking up in a corner, causing the 911 to go off. AS

Nick

Something is wrong with the car if slightly lifting off the throttle at 80 or even 100 mph while cornering causes it to spin out of control. This is probably what is happening to other unsuspecting drivers. Scary.

BTW, I am not aware of this happening with other midengine cars.

Bob Rouleau

Nick - I agree with you. I have driven a C-GT on track (carefully) and I found it to be a very good handling car. OTOH I was nowhere near the limit.

The Boxster is quite benign and hard as hell to spin, but when it goes it's hard to catch. My 430 wags its tail and is easy to catch. I cannot imagine Porsche letting the C-GT loose with handling vices.

We know that most GT3's came with bad alignment. I wonder if the C-GT suffers the same problem -- a bit of unwanted toe out in the rear would explain a lot...

Best,

993TTmike

I hate to stereotype here but....

That's why my wife sticks to the autobox Volvo

L8 APEKS

In a huge hurry...

Even if those extra steps are no more than a deterrent, it would be better than nothing, and might actually show a decrease in occurances like this. What's the ratio of F1 drivers crashing cars, to normal people crashing cars? Maybe 1 for every 3,000,000 ? Completely and totally irrelevant, that's for certain.

Irresponsible people are often lazy people, or people who have issues with follow-through, and they may not want to take the extra steps/costs/etc required to buy/drive a car like this. Like I said, it may end up being nothing more than a small obstacle or minor deterrent to the would-be assclowns who have no business getting behind the wheel of anything more potent than a Festiva. But anything is better than nothing. It saddens me more than I can possibly express to see people who don't belong in cars like the CGT driving them, let alone wrecking them. If anything, I think it's irresponsibility on the part of the automakers or the government for selling these machines (that are essentially 3,000 lb weapons in some people's hands), with only the same requirements to pilot them as a 16-year-old child in a VW Beetle just completing his first 15-minute road test at the local DMV.

IMHO, it should take just a little more effort proving that the owner can safely drive a vehicle that's fast enough to fly should the aerodynamics allow it.

Nicolaasdb

anybody owning a GT is very lucky, has a lot of money and I hope respects the car! If you respect the car you will take your time to get to know it's potential...lending your GT to someone...I would never do so..but then again if you have that much money to spend, maybe it is the same as for me driving a '99 911/996...

1AS

icon,
I think the point was that the CGT is a bit trickier than many expect. 600 hp in a tt would be easier to handle. All other Porsches are tuned to protect people from themselves. It seems that if you enter a CGT with that presumption, you get a surprise. AS

Steve N.

For the life of me, I cannot imagine why someone would hand the keys of a CGT to someone and not ride along to coach/observe. It appears that the accident happened at night. Might alcohol have been a contributing factor? I'm guessing that the CGT owner must have been drunk, if not the driver. Why else would he have been tossing the keys around?

No doubt - you can get in trouble (quickly) with this car - just as you can with any car in the same zip code in terms of performance. In fact, you can get in serious trouble with just about anything Porsche builds if you do not respect the car, and respect the laws of physics.

Given that the accident happened within a short distance of the hotel, there is a high probability that the tires were "cold". Tire temp makes a significant difference in grip, even with street tires. Only experience can teach this.

Anyway, it's distressing to see evidence of an accident of this magnitude in any car, but it seems a little silly to use this as an indictment of the CGT.

1AS

Yes Icon,
I think that is what is suggested by the anecdotes(that unwary drivers are expecting a car that is tuned to protect themselves from common errors). If you are an experienced driver of ultra-high hp cars tuned to oversteer, you might be able to avoid the mistakes less-experienced drivers have suffered. This is not a condemnation of the car. It is an observation that this is an "experts only" vehicle, if you intend to go fast.
Why do you think that Porsche worked so hard to get the engine low in this car? The whole reason for the high-tech clutch was to bring the engine down. It's because mid-engined cars snap into oversteer, and the higher the engine, the worse it is. But, the only way to truely avoid the problem is to make the front tires tiny in relationship to the rears. But, the CGT has so much power that it would take a huge disproportion. In other Porsches, the overwhelming chassis characteristic is understeer due to tires and tuning.
There are few ways that non-racers can prepare themselves for the experience of a car that oversteers with either throttle or lift-throttle. Even if you presume that most buyers have progressed thru other very fast cars, tell me what cars could be similar? I don't think that most people economically able to buy a CGT have driven a mid-engined car with that kind of power to weight ratio. The CGT is faster than some cars that have won races in classes like Can Am, Indy, Nascar, and various international endurance series. It takes a while to be able to handle that, particularly if the car isn't set up to avoid snap oversteer.
If you came up thru sprint car racing, shifter karts, international rally or similar classes, you might have developed the type of reflexes that are apparant in the drift video. Some vehicles are designed and set-up to be driven that way. In fact, you can't go fast unless you drive them that way.
The crash pictured in this thread, the Ben disaster, and even Leno's spin suggest that the driver needs an extra skill set, particularly since cars like this can enter the danger zone so quickly. I think that most people who see a CGT think it's a really cool car. I know I do. I think they think that it will drive like other cars, only better. It will, if they drive slowly. It won't when they don't.
Don't get me wrong, I love the car. If the prices come down enough, I will buy one. But, knowing what happens to the unwary, I would approach it with trepedation. I would guess I've spent more time over 160 mph than most on this board, ans when I looked at this car, it concerned me.
Again, I'm not blaming the car. It must be seen as something different than nearly anything you can buy. At least a handful of the buyers weren't expecting that. AS

1AS

Jeff,
"Specialist" is a designation the moderators placed. I'm a physician car addict who has been involved in motorsports for 40 years (I'm 57). In that time, I've raced cars ranging from an 850 Fiat Abarth to a Lola T163 (in vintage Can Am), The Lola was street-licensed, so I drove it on the street for many years. In this time, I have had the opportunitiy to make many mistakes and have seen others make many more.

1AS

(Cont. Don't know what happened)
In some ways, I see the Lola as the CGT of its time, and that experience has shaded my interpretation of the events posted on this board. The difficulty and danger of driving goes up exponentially with the capabilities of the car.
I'm glad the opportunity to own a CGT exists, but a potoential owner can't look at on and think he's competent, any more than someone who has owned cats can think he's ready for a tiger. If you let it out of the cage, you need some skills.
I don't think Leno's experience differed from Ben's, except for the proximity of a barrier. I'd guess Leno's tires were fully warm, differing from the opening vingnette. The problem is a vehicle that lets you quickly and effortlessly get to a point where dynamics change suddenly, and cause the driver to err by doing something he feels is normal, but doesn't work at that speed. Unless a driver has been in that situation before and is expecting it, he can't correct fast enough to salvage the spin, and then he's just a twirling passenger.
Very few of us would try an 80 mph turn on snow on the street. Cars like the CGT can get up to cornering speeds where the grip can go away just as quickly. That will surprise people who get ther for the first time. AS