Another one bites the dust...
01-17-2006, 09:57 PM
#17
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Hello D.,
I think the GT2 is a challenging car to drive quickly, but I don't think of it in the same way as the CGT.
Mid-engined supercars are very difficult to catch, once a slip angle develops. It is very difficult to feel the limits of traction approach, and when you cross that limit, the spin is very tough to catch, unless you have reflexes and anticipation like Juan Pablo. Hot slicks and big wings are what help the pros manage cars like this. But even they spin on cold tires (remember Roberto Guerrero)
The GT2 not only weighs more, it has less power.
All of our current supercars (Viper, ZO6, tt Porsches) are much faster than the cars of 20 years ago, and advances in tire and suspension technology have made the cornering limits even higher. So, when bad stuff happens, the car is going faster than an early 911S (remembered as a tricky car in its time) and other cars that required a specific skill set. I think the CGT takes it up another notch, and requires a skill set not possessed by many.
I've said before that I haven't driven one, but I've driven really fast cars really fast many times. When I looked at the CGT it worried me.
I think if I owned one, I would take it to a skid pad and use up a set of tires learning when it spins. Then I'd try a track that had nothing to hit, and experiment with the limits in slow corners. I'd probably hire a one-on-one instructor at some point, just to get more input. Then I'd drive it conservatively, on nice sunny days.
If I owned a GT2, I wouldnt take it out in snow, but otherwise I'd drive normally.
As a complete non-sequiter, I had my X50 out in the snow today, and it's a complete pussycat.
I don't know the numbers on wrecked GT2's, but I don't think as many have been totaled proportionate to numbers. I would guess that if you looked at catastrophes per mile, the CGT stands alone, since I don't think most cars have many miles. I could be wrong. AS
I think the GT2 is a challenging car to drive quickly, but I don't think of it in the same way as the CGT.
Mid-engined supercars are very difficult to catch, once a slip angle develops. It is very difficult to feel the limits of traction approach, and when you cross that limit, the spin is very tough to catch, unless you have reflexes and anticipation like Juan Pablo. Hot slicks and big wings are what help the pros manage cars like this. But even they spin on cold tires (remember Roberto Guerrero)
The GT2 not only weighs more, it has less power.
All of our current supercars (Viper, ZO6, tt Porsches) are much faster than the cars of 20 years ago, and advances in tire and suspension technology have made the cornering limits even higher. So, when bad stuff happens, the car is going faster than an early 911S (remembered as a tricky car in its time) and other cars that required a specific skill set. I think the CGT takes it up another notch, and requires a skill set not possessed by many.
I've said before that I haven't driven one, but I've driven really fast cars really fast many times. When I looked at the CGT it worried me.
I think if I owned one, I would take it to a skid pad and use up a set of tires learning when it spins. Then I'd try a track that had nothing to hit, and experiment with the limits in slow corners. I'd probably hire a one-on-one instructor at some point, just to get more input. Then I'd drive it conservatively, on nice sunny days.
If I owned a GT2, I wouldnt take it out in snow, but otherwise I'd drive normally.
As a complete non-sequiter, I had my X50 out in the snow today, and it's a complete pussycat.
I don't know the numbers on wrecked GT2's, but I don't think as many have been totaled proportionate to numbers. I would guess that if you looked at catastrophes per mile, the CGT stands alone, since I don't think most cars have many miles. I could be wrong. AS
01-18-2006, 12:01 PM
#18
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AS
Your point regarding the CGT is well taken, with respect to catching a mid-engined car just past its limits of traction, but I think your fear regarding the CGT on a daily driving basis is unfounded, unless you drive far more aggressively than I do. I can recall a morning drive in the CGT and was taking an s-curve at around 60MPH (sign said 35MPH limit
). The tires were cold, but I had not considered that before entering the turn (I had taken it many times before at that speed). I felt the car begin to slip but it was very apparent very early, I made a slight correction and the only thing that happened was that I drifted about 2 feet past the centerline. It obviously would have been disastrous had another car been right at that point, but given the clear field of view I knew that no car was approaching.
I do not consider myself a good driver by any stretch of the imagination. At 37, my reflexes are far slower than they were 15 years ago, and even then they were clearly not in the league of professional racing drivers. Yet I was able to catch a slide without problems.
Clearly the speed was the issue in my case. The turn was made at a relatively slow speed, thus the lack of drama during the slip. But that merely reinforces my belief that driven within reasonable limits, the car is quite safe as long as one pays attention. And if one is not paying attention, a crash can occur in any car just as readily as in the CGT.
D.Min
Your point regarding the CGT is well taken, with respect to catching a mid-engined car just past its limits of traction, but I think your fear regarding the CGT on a daily driving basis is unfounded, unless you drive far more aggressively than I do. I can recall a morning drive in the CGT and was taking an s-curve at around 60MPH (sign said 35MPH limit
). The tires were cold, but I had not considered that before entering the turn (I had taken it many times before at that speed). I felt the car begin to slip but it was very apparent very early, I made a slight correction and the only thing that happened was that I drifted about 2 feet past the centerline. It obviously would have been disastrous had another car been right at that point, but given the clear field of view I knew that no car was approaching.I do not consider myself a good driver by any stretch of the imagination. At 37, my reflexes are far slower than they were 15 years ago, and even then they were clearly not in the league of professional racing drivers. Yet I was able to catch a slide without problems.
Clearly the speed was the issue in my case. The turn was made at a relatively slow speed, thus the lack of drama during the slip. But that merely reinforces my belief that driven within reasonable limits, the car is quite safe as long as one pays attention. And if one is not paying attention, a crash can occur in any car just as readily as in the CGT.
D.Min
01-18-2006, 12:35 PM
#19
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Normal people should not be allowed to buy or drive these cars. It's always bugged me that our speed limits are regulated to 65-70mph, yet road cars are sold capable of 200mph. Not to mention, any old asshat with enough coin can buy a car requiring abilities and experience FAR beyond his own.
Some sort of special high performance driving school should be required to buy or drive a car like this. Same goes for any supercar.
Glad to hear the people survived. Though I hope they are limited to buying Geo Metros the rest of their lives as punishment for destroying one of the finest road cars the world has ever known.
Some sort of special high performance driving school should be required to buy or drive a car like this. Same goes for any supercar.
Glad to hear the people survived. Though I hope they are limited to buying Geo Metros the rest of their lives as punishment for destroying one of the finest road cars the world has ever known.
01-18-2006, 02:22 PM
#20
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Here are the rest of a pics. The driver (some lady) suffered serious injuries (brain injury and pelvic fractures). The passenger wasn't hurt so much ....just some light injuries .
01-18-2006, 02:42 PM
#21
Originally Posted by URIN 2ND
Normal people should not be allowed to buy or drive these cars...
Some sort of special high performance driving school should be required to buy or drive a car like this. Same goes for any supercar...
Some sort of special high performance driving school should be required to buy or drive a car like this. Same goes for any supercar...
Or, maybe we should consider that everyone--no matter how skilled--has accidents.
Greg A
01-18-2006, 04:05 PM
#22
Originally Posted by URIN 2ND
Normal people should not be allowed to buy or drive these cars. It's always bugged me that our speed limits are regulated to 65-70mph, yet road cars are sold capable of 200mph. Not to mention, any old asshat with enough coin can buy a car requiring abilities and experience FAR beyond his own.
Some sort of special high performance driving school should be required to buy or drive a car like this. Same goes for any supercar.
Glad to hear the people survived. Though I hope they are limited to buying Geo Metros the rest of their lives as punishment for destroying one of the finest road cars the world has ever known.
Some sort of special high performance driving school should be required to buy or drive a car like this. Same goes for any supercar.
Glad to hear the people survived. Though I hope they are limited to buying Geo Metros the rest of their lives as punishment for destroying one of the finest road cars the world has ever known.
Why does everyone try to shift blame for these accidents? It's the DRIVER'S fault. Period.
01-18-2006, 06:11 PM
#24
Originally Posted by Ryan in SD
No its not "always" the drivers fault. I dont see why people spread rumors and speculate so much, dont you guys have anything better to do than blame blame blame?!
haha - so you're saying that this, ONE CAR accident, wasn't the driver's fault? Please, enlighten us. Did the car steer itself into the tree?
01-18-2006, 08:19 PM
#25
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Assumed innocent until proven guilty is my logic. People judge entire stories by a few pictures of an aftermath. As far as you know big foot could have driven them off the road.
01-18-2006, 09:21 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by pcar964
haha - so you're saying that this, ONE CAR accident, wasn't the driver's fault? Please, enlighten us. Did the car steer itself into the tree?
) but you better be ready to control it. If you are not....... 
01-18-2006, 11:06 PM
#27
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Irresponsible is different from "caught by surprise", or ignorant.The latter two are kind of normal human characteristics. If you've never accelerated from 60 to 100 in a couple of seconds, it probably takes you by surprise when that happens. The problem is that you are now over 100, and probably doing the wrong things to get slowed down for some obstacle that might be ahead. Something like twitching the wheel and tapping the brake, doesn't seem irresponsible in your 500SL but suddenly becomes a big problem when you're going 40 mph faster than you expected.
About a million years ago, I was winning autocross trophies driving a much modified 442 Olds. My buddy was struggling with his breathed-on 427 Corvette, and offered me a run at Blackhawk. I went off twice in one lap. The difference wasn't that I was suddenly a worse driver. The difference was that I was reaching the same corners 15 mph faster, without any more grip.
It takes a while to get used to quantum leaps in performance. If you drive like a pussycat, no problem. When you start to push it a little, it can be a big problem in a hurry.
Again, with performance at this level, I think ASC is necessary for most drivers. Somebody with a CGT, please answer this. What happens when you nail the throttle for 2 secodns from 60, then suddenly back of the gas with the wheel slightly turned? I think that's what happens when you take the car out on a country road, and stab the throttle in a place that seems to give you enough room, but doesn't. AS
About a million years ago, I was winning autocross trophies driving a much modified 442 Olds. My buddy was struggling with his breathed-on 427 Corvette, and offered me a run at Blackhawk. I went off twice in one lap. The difference wasn't that I was suddenly a worse driver. The difference was that I was reaching the same corners 15 mph faster, without any more grip.
It takes a while to get used to quantum leaps in performance. If you drive like a pussycat, no problem. When you start to push it a little, it can be a big problem in a hurry.
Again, with performance at this level, I think ASC is necessary for most drivers. Somebody with a CGT, please answer this. What happens when you nail the throttle for 2 secodns from 60, then suddenly back of the gas with the wheel slightly turned? I think that's what happens when you take the car out on a country road, and stab the throttle in a place that seems to give you enough room, but doesn't. AS
01-18-2006, 11:44 PM
#28
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Not knowing physics would fall under ignorance. Giving throttle then backing off abruptly isnt a good thing, the same type of thing will happen when you brake during a turn, we know this. Most car enthusiasts who drive hard know this. This is not always the issue, people dont always crash because they dont have enough seat time.
Even the best drivers crash, its part of motoring. Mechanical failures, wild life, and random road hazards are the things keep driving as dangerouse as they are. No matter how good you are, going fast is going fast. And when your going fast you will not always have the time to react to such obstacles. Its not always the drivers fault, you cannot predict everything. Going slower is not an option because at this point you have already made your descision. You have decided to take a "casuall" risk.
I think theres 3 types of sports car drivers: great drivers that can crash, bad drivers that do crash, and lucky SOBs.
Everytime you take a high speed turn you are taking chance. No ifs ands or buts.
Even the best drivers crash, its part of motoring. Mechanical failures, wild life, and random road hazards are the things keep driving as dangerouse as they are. No matter how good you are, going fast is going fast. And when your going fast you will not always have the time to react to such obstacles. Its not always the drivers fault, you cannot predict everything. Going slower is not an option because at this point you have already made your descision. You have decided to take a "casuall" risk.
I think theres 3 types of sports car drivers: great drivers that can crash, bad drivers that do crash, and lucky SOBs.
Everytime you take a high speed turn you are taking chance. No ifs ands or buts.
01-19-2006, 01:28 AM
#29
Guys, be serious. She crashed the car. It's her fault. She was irresponsible enough to take the keys to SOMEONE ELSE'S $500,000 supercar, and then lost control. I don't care what the catalyst for the crash was (dog ran across the street, her foot slipped, etc), she shouldn't have been in that situation in the first place.
Would I be intimidated by the performance of CGT? No. I've driven a friend's 600bhp 2200# 930 race car, the CGT would be no problem. HOWEVER - if I was offered the keys to someone else's CGT, would I drive it fast? HELL NO!!! I wouldn't even THINK about it. I'd be scared to breathe on the thing wrong, let alone lose control and crash the goddamn thing.
What is it about shirking personal responsibility? Is nobody culpable for their own actions anymore?
Would I be intimidated by the performance of CGT? No. I've driven a friend's 600bhp 2200# 930 race car, the CGT would be no problem. HOWEVER - if I was offered the keys to someone else's CGT, would I drive it fast? HELL NO!!! I wouldn't even THINK about it. I'd be scared to breathe on the thing wrong, let alone lose control and crash the goddamn thing.
What is it about shirking personal responsibility? Is nobody culpable for their own actions anymore?
01-19-2006, 08:00 AM
#30
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Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer
...
Mid-engined supercars are very difficult to catch, once a slip angle develops. It is very difficult to feel the limits of traction approach, and when you cross that limit, the spin is very tough to catch, unless you have reflexes and anticipation like Juan Pablo. Hot slicks and big wings are what help the pros manage cars like this. But even they spin on cold tires (remember Roberto Guerrero)
...
Mid-engined supercars are very difficult to catch, once a slip angle develops. It is very difficult to feel the limits of traction approach, and when you cross that limit, the spin is very tough to catch, unless you have reflexes and anticipation like Juan Pablo. Hot slicks and big wings are what help the pros manage cars like this. But even they spin on cold tires (remember Roberto Guerrero)
...
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=691
As silly as it sounds, if I owned a C-GT and didn't have any mid engine experience, I would go and buy a MR2 and hit the autocross circuit or heck even bring my C-GT to one and really learn at slow speeds how to catch a spin and then get faster at a track so that it is second nature.