Forgive me, but I respectfully disagree.....
09-08-2005, 12:39 AM
#31
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Originally Posted by Nick
BTW, I am not trying to speak for you. Like I posted before, your probably the only guy in the country that was able to flip the CGT and make some money. Enjoy your second CGT. I do know one thing for certain; unless you find some imbecile, you will not be able to flip it and make money on it again. 
09-08-2005, 12:55 AM
#32
Originally Posted by Nick
...Like I posted before, your[sic] probably the only guy in the country that was able to flip the CGT and make some money...
Someone else on this forum also did that. Probably even before Labcars Les did.
Greg A
09-08-2005, 01:20 AM
#33
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OK, once again I allowed myself to get sucked into a thread where Nick was a player. This will not happen again. Unfortunately, if everyone else is equally rational there will be no CGT board on Rennlist. It may be down to Nick and Les (who seems to have a soft spot for Nick). No offense Les - in every other respect I have enjoyed your posts, and you seem like a pretty cool guy.
09-08-2005, 01:42 AM
#34
Originally Posted by Steve N.
Mikey: You state: "major problem area... suspension or aerodynamic issue causing it to go unstable..." regarding the CGT. I wonder if you could elaborate regarding your basis for this conclusion? Have you experienced high speed instability yourself in a CGT? .
Coincidently I met Leno on a set in LA about two months ago (super guy) but not during his track day so can’t say for sure what happened there. I did witness Ben’s accident and it sounded similar. Ben was on sweep at about 150MPH and he must of lifted because the car dived a bit and he was probably trying to correct the other way … NOT jerking on the wheel otherwise he would have hit the Ferrari. The car had ZERO traction and almost floated away. Ben talked about a high speed spin-out the week before at Thunderhill that morning, but I didn’t ask for the details.
It is evident to me that this car is completely on edge on very high speed turns … for what it’s worth. In that way it’s not too different than a Viper or a Vette. Nick loves his Ferrari but I really wouldn’t trade my GT3 for his even if it’s worth a few dollar over MSRP. There is a good reason the good Dr. standardized on the rear-engine configuration for the GT even though he invented the mid-engined design. It’s not a comfy ride, but you get tons of feedback all the way to the limit .. not just on edge.
RIP Ben, we miss you
09-08-2005, 02:56 AM
#35
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Originally Posted by Nick
Porsche logic is as good as yours. 
(you might find that you'd be less "confused" if you stopped banging your head against a wall.
)
09-08-2005, 10:10 PM
#36
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I don't know who this guy is, but I remember reading this last year and I enjoyed reading his reviews of the CGT and F40. I post this only to support that which is a given anyhow- People do like 'raw' rides...rides with no driver aids. I personally don't think much Jeremy Clarkson, but his review of both of these cars actually mirrors 'alexpapas'.
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The CGT is a contradiction in definitions. It is a supercar with all the creature comforts you expect of a superb Grand Tourer. It has a nav, radio, airbags, leather covered seats storage etc, yet it is capable of ferocious performance on a par with almost any supercar you care to name.
It is relatively docile in urban traffic and all the BS you have heard about the clutch is basically untrue. The clutch requires some experience, but anyone who has driven sports cars with manual transmission will soon get the hang of this clutch. It initially feels like an on/off clutch with no transition but there is enough to be able to get smooth low speed takeoffs in traffic. The "clutch" issue is really a free revving engine that takes first time CGT drivers by surprise. It revs freely like a go kart and that can put you off your stride as you prepare to move off and the engine revs to 6,000. The subconscious reaction is to get off the gas at the same time as you are letting the clutch out. This causes a stall. All that is required is a bit of time driving the car and you soon get the feel for where the clutch disengages.
I have used the CGT for mundane things like school drop off (where it caused a mini riot in the middle school drop off line as a bunch of 13 year olds swarmed toward me). I have also had it running hard and the acceleration is smooth but breathtaking.
The F40 on the other hand is a pure uncivilized beast. It has no creature comforts. Not even an interior door handle, just a cable you pull to disengage the door lock. The F40 clutch is very predictable and the brakes are awful unless they are very hot. The acceleration as the turbo boost kicks in at 3,500 RPM is an otherworldly feeling. I have never felt anything quite as intense. It is hard to drive in urban traffic unless you are prepared to limit the RPM's to under 3,000. Anything more, in any gear, and you literally get a kick in your pants as the turbos makes the car surge forward. I love the feeling, especially when lining up against someone who thinks they have something worth taking on an F40 with. The drama of a standing start takeoff in the F40 is a noisy event and you have to hold on real tight, looking out for the back end if your ***** give way and you lift just the tiniest bit, whereas the CGT blasts away without any issues at all.
I really prefer the looks of the F40 as I am a Ferrari guy at heart with several F Cars in my stable. The CGT evokes a lot of emotion in onlookers, but riding in it is a very serene experience, even at ridiculous speeds. It is my first Porsche BTW and I couldn't be more pleased with it.
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alexpapas
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The CGT is a contradiction in definitions. It is a supercar with all the creature comforts you expect of a superb Grand Tourer. It has a nav, radio, airbags, leather covered seats storage etc, yet it is capable of ferocious performance on a par with almost any supercar you care to name.
It is relatively docile in urban traffic and all the BS you have heard about the clutch is basically untrue. The clutch requires some experience, but anyone who has driven sports cars with manual transmission will soon get the hang of this clutch. It initially feels like an on/off clutch with no transition but there is enough to be able to get smooth low speed takeoffs in traffic. The "clutch" issue is really a free revving engine that takes first time CGT drivers by surprise. It revs freely like a go kart and that can put you off your stride as you prepare to move off and the engine revs to 6,000. The subconscious reaction is to get off the gas at the same time as you are letting the clutch out. This causes a stall. All that is required is a bit of time driving the car and you soon get the feel for where the clutch disengages.
I have used the CGT for mundane things like school drop off (where it caused a mini riot in the middle school drop off line as a bunch of 13 year olds swarmed toward me). I have also had it running hard and the acceleration is smooth but breathtaking.
The F40 on the other hand is a pure uncivilized beast. It has no creature comforts. Not even an interior door handle, just a cable you pull to disengage the door lock. The F40 clutch is very predictable and the brakes are awful unless they are very hot. The acceleration as the turbo boost kicks in at 3,500 RPM is an otherworldly feeling. I have never felt anything quite as intense. It is hard to drive in urban traffic unless you are prepared to limit the RPM's to under 3,000. Anything more, in any gear, and you literally get a kick in your pants as the turbos makes the car surge forward. I love the feeling, especially when lining up against someone who thinks they have something worth taking on an F40 with. The drama of a standing start takeoff in the F40 is a noisy event and you have to hold on real tight, looking out for the back end if your ***** give way and you lift just the tiniest bit, whereas the CGT blasts away without any issues at all.
I really prefer the looks of the F40 as I am a Ferrari guy at heart with several F Cars in my stable. The CGT evokes a lot of emotion in onlookers, but riding in it is a very serene experience, even at ridiculous speeds. It is my first Porsche BTW and I couldn't be more pleased with it.
09-09-2005, 03:04 AM
#37
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I remember that post. The only thing that has changed is more time in the CGT. I understand very clearly, from having it at the track that I don't have the talent or reflexes to run the CGT above 130-140 MPH.
I havent experienced the floatiness that seems to have been present on Ben's rides at high speeds and the car has been very precise in corners. It really feels incredibly well planted especially in quick right left transitions like you get on the Firebird East Track in Phoenix.
I 'm quite happy to drive the CGT well within its limits and I know I will get comments that it's a waste not to use a car like that to its full potential, but c'est la vie, with distinct emphasis on vie.
I havent experienced the floatiness that seems to have been present on Ben's rides at high speeds and the car has been very precise in corners. It really feels incredibly well planted especially in quick right left transitions like you get on the Firebird East Track in Phoenix.
I 'm quite happy to drive the CGT well within its limits and I know I will get comments that it's a waste not to use a car like that to its full potential, but c'est la vie, with distinct emphasis on vie.
09-09-2005, 09:08 AM
#38
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Alex
Don't worry, I didn't even get my car above 115 (redined in 3rd) when I was at the track. Of course, it wasn't a high speed track whatsoever. I had a tremendous amount of fun driving well within the limits of the car.
D. Min
Don't worry, I didn't even get my car above 115 (redined in 3rd) when I was at the track. Of course, it wasn't a high speed track whatsoever. I had a tremendous amount of fun driving well within the limits of the car.
D. Min
09-09-2005, 01:09 PM
#39
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Just curious, I know a lot of the GT3/2's that come out of the factory have really f'd up alignment, could this also be an issue in the CGT?
Personally, I think it is both an phenomenal machine and somewhat dangerous one at the same time, jmo. Admittedly, the closest I've ever been to one was taking the liberty of sitting in one at the dealer that was being prepped for somebody. With all things being equal, I'd feel better in a GT2 on a high speed track run.
Personally, I think it is both an phenomenal machine and somewhat dangerous one at the same time, jmo. Admittedly, the closest I've ever been to one was taking the liberty of sitting in one at the dealer that was being prepped for somebody. With all things being equal, I'd feel better in a GT2 on a high speed track run.
09-09-2005, 08:39 PM
#40
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Steve N.
I think anyone who sits around reading car magazines in their red longjohns is OK with me. I also think that since Nick witnessed Ben's accident and was a friend of Nicks his perspective on this issue may be diffrent from some of ours? But no offense taken. I love your posts. In a platonic way that is. LOL
Matt
The personalized coffin comment is hilarious LOL LOL.
Nick
I have not experienced the same sense of float or looseness you described in Ben's car. Ben was running before his track day accident on some well worn tires. I know he bought new ones prior to his accident. Or possibly he wasn't checking his air pressures which could cause that feeling? I am not sure when you and Ben experienced this feeling? But he never discussed that feeling with me prior to his death. In any event my CGT feels planted and far more stable than any of the three GT2s I have owned or any car I have ever driven for that matter. I was able to drive both a 360 challenge and a street 360 on the track at Laguna and think the CGT is much more stable than either of the 360's? Exceedingly more stable than my Viper race car as well. I would strongly disagree with those who would suggest the CGT has a handling problem or design flaw. I think the only problem with the CGT's handling is the nut behind the wheel.
And yes I agree that more electronic aids would make the car safer and more stable, but from a personal standpoint I wouldn't enjoy the car as much. When I blow a gear or miss the downshift it lets me know I need to slow down and get smoother. I appreciate the feedback the CGT rewards me with. When I drive the car well it lets me know and when I screw up it lets me know as well. Fortunately I have had enough experience and practice screwing up that I am capable of staying out of trouble most of the time.
It's not a car for everyone and since maybe 500 are coming to North America hopefully the fortunate 500 owners will get some training so that they can safely enjoy the car. Because it certainly is a rewarding car from a driver standpoint when it is driven smoothly. However the CGT driven at speed without training is a dangerous proposition in my humble opinion.
I think anyone who sits around reading car magazines in their red longjohns is OK with me. I also think that since Nick witnessed Ben's accident and was a friend of Nicks his perspective on this issue may be diffrent from some of ours? But no offense taken. I love your posts. In a platonic way that is. LOL
Matt
The personalized coffin comment is hilarious LOL LOL.
Nick
I have not experienced the same sense of float or looseness you described in Ben's car. Ben was running before his track day accident on some well worn tires. I know he bought new ones prior to his accident. Or possibly he wasn't checking his air pressures which could cause that feeling? I am not sure when you and Ben experienced this feeling? But he never discussed that feeling with me prior to his death. In any event my CGT feels planted and far more stable than any of the three GT2s I have owned or any car I have ever driven for that matter. I was able to drive both a 360 challenge and a street 360 on the track at Laguna and think the CGT is much more stable than either of the 360's? Exceedingly more stable than my Viper race car as well. I would strongly disagree with those who would suggest the CGT has a handling problem or design flaw. I think the only problem with the CGT's handling is the nut behind the wheel.
And yes I agree that more electronic aids would make the car safer and more stable, but from a personal standpoint I wouldn't enjoy the car as much. When I blow a gear or miss the downshift it lets me know I need to slow down and get smoother. I appreciate the feedback the CGT rewards me with. When I drive the car well it lets me know and when I screw up it lets me know as well. Fortunately I have had enough experience and practice screwing up that I am capable of staying out of trouble most of the time.
It's not a car for everyone and since maybe 500 are coming to North America hopefully the fortunate 500 owners will get some training so that they can safely enjoy the car. Because it certainly is a rewarding car from a driver standpoint when it is driven smoothly. However the CGT driven at speed without training is a dangerous proposition in my humble opinion.
09-10-2005, 10:41 PM
#41
Burning Brakes
Oh God please not another Nick "I need training wheels on my Ferrari" thread!
Nick you will NEVER change our minds that the Carrera GT is unsafe why do you keep trying?
Don't you have a cardigan sweater to put on to go pick up your trustfund girlfriend in your plastic bubble protected F430?
I really think you would be much happier with a Volvo!
Nick you will NEVER change our minds that the Carrera GT is unsafe why do you keep trying?
Don't you have a cardigan sweater to put on to go pick up your trustfund girlfriend in your plastic bubble protected F430?
I really think you would be much happier with a Volvo!
09-11-2005, 12:59 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
[QUOTE=Les Quam]Steve N.
I think anyone who sits around reading car magazines in their red longjohns is OK with me. I also think that since Nick witnessed Ben's accident and was a friend of Nicks his perspective on this issue may be diffrent from some of ours? But no offense taken. I love your posts. In a platonic way that is. LOL
QUOTE]
Les and fellow counselor I am guilty as charged.
I acknowledge my bias against the car based primarily on my emotional state. Ben was a good friend. 
However Ben and I had our disagreements regarding the car. I thought it was just too much car for the general public. Ben, though conceding it was a lot of car, felt it was exactly what he wanted. He drove it as it was meant to be driven and was a very good driver. I know good drivers because I have ridden with some of the best Porsche drivers.
He loved the car.
I think anyone who sits around reading car magazines in their red longjohns is OK with me. I also think that since Nick witnessed Ben's accident and was a friend of Nicks his perspective on this issue may be diffrent from some of ours? But no offense taken. I love your posts. In a platonic way that is. LOL
QUOTE]
Les and fellow counselor I am guilty as charged.
I acknowledge my bias against the car based primarily on my emotional state. Ben was a good friend. However Ben and I had our disagreements regarding the car. I thought it was just too much car for the general public. Ben, though conceding it was a lot of car, felt it was exactly what he wanted. He drove it as it was meant to be driven and was a very good driver. I know good drivers because I have ridden with some of the best Porsche drivers.
He loved the car.
09-11-2005, 01:09 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by BuddyG
Oh God please not another Nick "I need training wheels on my Ferrari" thread!
Nick you will NEVER change our minds that the Carrera GT is unsafe why do you keep trying?
Don't you have a cardigan sweater to put on to go pick up your trustfund girlfriend in your plastic bubble protected F430?
I really think you would be much happier with a Volvo!
Nick you will NEVER change our minds that the Carrera GT is unsafe why do you keep trying?
Don't you have a cardigan sweater to put on to go pick up your trustfund girlfriend in your plastic bubble protected F430?
I really think you would be much happier with a Volvo!
09-11-2005, 01:43 PM
#44
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Nick,
I have to admit I enjoy my CGT less since Ben's death. He was the one who found my CGT for me and it was becaus he liked his CGT so much that I even went and test drove a CGT. If it wasn't for Ben I wouldn't own a CGT and we had made many plans to go off on CGT road trips together. Prior to his death I made time to drive my CGT everyday, now it's much less often. I realize that it's not rational to look at my CGT and displace negative feelings toward it because of Ben's death. Perhaps it's because he is still missed.
I keep thinking back to how we tried to get back Ben's deposit on his CGT and maybe if we had been successful????
And I still feel strongly and perhaps I am a bubble boy too that all CGT and GT 2 owners should get some training at Skip Barber or Jim Russell or Bondurant or Derek Daly or have some from of serious seat time before driving their CGTs at speed. The CGT at speed demands a lot from a driver as would any car capable of 200 MPH. I would also agree that because the CGT lacks many of the computer driver aids found on other cars capable of 200 MPH that the CGT requires more skill from it's driver. However that requirement is exactly why I appreciate the CGT so much.
To drive a CGT or GT2 is to appreciate an older art of driving. To appreciate a time when few computer electronic aids existed. The CGT and GT 2 provide immediate feedback when you drive it well or drive it poorly. I for one am glad Porsche still builds cars for those who wish to study the art of driving in it's purest from.
And finally I think IMHO all of us on this forum should recognize that those of Ben's friends who were present at the track and witnessed his death personally are going to have a far different perspective on the safety of the CGT than the rest of us.
I have to admit I enjoy my CGT less since Ben's death. He was the one who found my CGT for me and it was becaus he liked his CGT so much that I even went and test drove a CGT. If it wasn't for Ben I wouldn't own a CGT and we had made many plans to go off on CGT road trips together. Prior to his death I made time to drive my CGT everyday, now it's much less often. I realize that it's not rational to look at my CGT and displace negative feelings toward it because of Ben's death. Perhaps it's because he is still missed.
I keep thinking back to how we tried to get back Ben's deposit on his CGT and maybe if we had been successful????
And I still feel strongly and perhaps I am a bubble boy too that all CGT and GT 2 owners should get some training at Skip Barber or Jim Russell or Bondurant or Derek Daly or have some from of serious seat time before driving their CGTs at speed. The CGT at speed demands a lot from a driver as would any car capable of 200 MPH. I would also agree that because the CGT lacks many of the computer driver aids found on other cars capable of 200 MPH that the CGT requires more skill from it's driver. However that requirement is exactly why I appreciate the CGT so much.
To drive a CGT or GT2 is to appreciate an older art of driving. To appreciate a time when few computer electronic aids existed. The CGT and GT 2 provide immediate feedback when you drive it well or drive it poorly. I for one am glad Porsche still builds cars for those who wish to study the art of driving in it's purest from.
And finally I think IMHO all of us on this forum should recognize that those of Ben's friends who were present at the track and witnessed his death personally are going to have a far different perspective on the safety of the CGT than the rest of us.